Charging Order

[george_h]

Hi

 

I am new to the forumand have been looking around but cant find any advice or information about my predicament. If nyone can point me in the right direction I would be most grateful.

 

I have a debt with Liverpool Victoria amounting to £4900 that I have been paying off under an agreement with them at £4.00 per month. Don't laugh, I know at that amount it will still be outstanding when I die but I was so heavily in debt with a vast drop in earnings that I could only make that offer. I have been paying this amount with no problem for almost four years.

 

Liverpool Victoria have now sold the debt to TBI financial, I have all the paperwork, deed of transfer, statement etc. as required under the CCA. They have inssited on a payment of £80 per month and I MUST complete a financial statement, this statement wants everything, details of all my creditors, balances, account numbers, copies of statements, details of mortgage, details of my car, my wage slips etc.

 

If I fail to pay or send in the financial statement within 14 days they will place a charging order on my property. Can they do that without a court order and if they do and I cant pay what they want (ie. £80) then can they force me to sell up to pay off the debt?

[livelylad]

Hi

 

I am new to the forumand have been looking around but cant find any advice or information about my predicament. If nyone can point me in the right direction I would be most grateful.

 

I have a debt with Liverpool Victoria amounting to £4900 that I have been paying off under an agreement with them at £4.00 per month. Don't laugh, I know at that amount it will still be outstanding when I die but I was so heavily in debt with a vast drop in earnings that I could only make that offer. I have been paying this amount with no problem for almost four years.

 

Liverpool Victoria have now sold the debt to TBI financial, I have all the paperwork, deed of transfer, statement etc. as required under the CCA. They have inssited on a payment of £80 per month and I MUST complete a financial statement, this statement wants everything, details of all my creditors, balances, account numbers, copies of statements, details of mortgage, details of my car, my wage slips etc.

 

If I fail to pay or send in the financial statement within 14 days they will place a charging order on my property. Can they do that without a court order and if they do and I cant pay what they want (ie. £80) then can they force me to sell up to pay off the debt?

 

 

A charging order is an order from the court placed on a debtor’s property (house or land) for monies owed to a lender. If you have borrowed money and the money is not secured and you have not kept to the repayment arrangement, a lender can request the court to place a charging order on your property so that when the property is sold you will have to pay that debt off first before any of the proceeds are given to you. In basic terms, the unsecured debt becomes secured on your property. The charge will be the amount you owe.

 

Before a court will consider an application for a charging order, the lender must have issued a county court judgement and you must have failed to make payments on that judgement or not paid the judgement according to the requirements of the court.

 

The lender will apply to the court for a charging order, once the court has considered the application and is satisfied with the application, you will receive the order on a N86 form. The form will include information regarding the time and date of the hearing when the judge will decide if to make a final charging order.

If the judgement is put in place, you will receive a N87 form (Final Charging Order), this form will also be sent to the lender. The lender will then need to inform the Land Registry of the order.

 

You are not under any obligation to sell your property once the final charging order is in place, however, there are some extreme circumstances where a lender can apply to a court for force of sale. This is, however, rare and the court would have to agree to the application before such an order would be served

[lookinforinfo]

When you say you have all the paperwork, I assume you mean that TBI have

shown to you that they have the correct paperwork?

 

They are trying it on. Not only that, they should know that they are in breach of

the OFT guidelines issued in 2003.

 

False Representation of Legal Position

!] They are falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when it legally cannot. IE Before they can even apply for a charging order, they first of all

have to have taken out a ccj against you.Then you must have failed to make

payments under that arrangement. Then they have to return to

Court to apply for a charging order, with no guarantee they will get one. Plus they

will have to pay for two court fees, and with no certainty of getting a result, I

doubt they would take that route.

 

"] They are guilty of psychological harassment. This is how the OFT defines it-

"Pressurising debtors to pay in full, in unreasonably large instalments or to increase payments when the debtor is unable to do so".

 

Both these offences are serious breaches of the Consumer Credit Act and leave

them open the removal of their licence by the OFT.

 

Tell them this first of all, then carry on to say that you have a contract with

Liverpool Vic to pay £4 per month and that is what you can only afford. And you

will not be further harassed into providing proof to a company that has no contractual right over you to insist on such an action .

 

Then say that you will give them 7 days to respond and rescind their demands, or you will report them to the OFT.

[Guest Zooman]

the simple answer is No they can not get a Charging Order without already having a court judgement, the next bit (and what will cheer you up) if they get a judgement (it would not be unreasonable for them to secure the debt with a CCJ and then a charging order) and you make payments in line with what the court has ordered each month they will never be able to sell your house from under you.

[lookinforinfo]

When you say you have all the paperwork, I assume you mean that TBI have

shown to you that they have the correct paperwork?

 

They are trying it on. Not only that, they should know that they are in breach of

the OFT guidelines issued in 2003.

 

!] They are falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when it legally cannot. EG Before they can even apply for a charging order, they first of all

have to have taken out a ccj against you.Then you must have failed to make

payments under that arramngement. Then they have to return to

iCourt to apply for a charging order, with no guarantee they will get one. Plus they

will have to pay for two court fees, and with no certainty of getting one, I

doubt they would take that route.

 

"] They are guilty of psychological harassment. This is what the OFT says about it-

"Pressurising debtors to pay in full, in unreasonably large instalments or to increase payments when the debtor is unable to do so".

 

Both these offences are serious breaches of the Consumer Credit Act and leave

them open the removal of their licence by the OFT.

 

Tell them this first of all, then carry on to say that you have a contract with

Liverpool Vic to pay £4 per month and that is what you can only afford. And you

will not be further harassed into providing proof to a company that has no contractual right over you to insist on such an action .

[george_h]

Hi

 

Thanks everyone for your help. When they informed me the debt had been transferred I sent them a CCA letter with a £1.00 postal order and they sent me a deed of assignment, a statement and copy of the original signed agreement. They also said the balance outstanding would attract interest but when I challenged this they backed down and said no interest would be added.

 

At least i know how I stand now with the charging order.

 

Thanks very much

[george_h]

Well finally TBI responded to my request that they rescind their threat of a charging order and apologise for the harrasment. They got a Solicitor to send me a letter saying they are surprised by my allegation and refute any threat or harrasment and refute that they are acting outside OFT guidlines.

 

They say that I never had a contract to pay a reduced rate and if I do not send them the financial statement they asked for then they will pursue court action. They say they have a legal right to be provided with a financial statement. The statement they are asking for wants to know everything and also I have to authorise them to make any enquiries with my creditors, employers and mortgage company.

 

Do I have to provide this or should I just report them for harrasment?

[sequenci]

say they have a legal right to be provided with a financial statement. The statement they are asking for wants to know everything and also I have to authorise them to make any enquiries with my creditors, employers and mortgage company.

 

Do I have to provide this or should I just report them for harrasment?

 

send them a financial statement by all means and offer a reasonable amoutn of payment (if £4 is reasonable then so be it)

 

you do not have to give them authorisation to speak to your other creditors, employers and mortgage company. i would argue that big time.

 

here is some info on harrasment for you:

 

National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 03 Harassment

 

and the debt collection guidance info is here:

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/50F06527-9FC5-4610-B385-999D6E2A8950/0/oft664.pdf

 

bear in mind that the debt collection guidance is ONLY a guidance but considering the OFT licence these people, they SHOULD really follow it wouldn't you think?

 

i wish you all the very best with this

[lookinforinfo]

Under the CCA 1974 section 174 [1] says this

"No information obtained under or by virtue of this act about any individual shall be disclosed without consent"

 

and section 174 [5] says

"any person who discloses information in contravention of this section commits an offence"

 

You gave Liverpol Victoria your permission, but you will not have given it to TBI Financial -and Liverpool Vic's authority does not transfer with the agreement.

So they cannot inform the Court without contravening the Act. I imagine

they will have informed various cras about the debt, so they are in breach of

the Act there as well.

 

Also in the Unfair Terms in a Consumer Contract, one of the terms that

is considered unfair there is this one

"giving the seller or supplier the possibility of transferring his rights and

obligations under the contract where this may serve to reduce the guarantee for the consumer, without the latters agreement."

 

Well you had an arrangement of £4 per month whisked away without your

permission. Did Liverpool Vic advise you that they were assigning the debt?

Apparently they are suppposed to inform you before they do.

[tbern123]

Under the CCA 1974 section 174 [1] says this

"No information obtained under or by virtue of this act about any individual shall be disclosed without consent"

 

and section 174 [5] says

"any person who discloses information in contravention of this section commits an offence"

 

Recently, I have read the CCA more times then I would like to admit. This is very interesting in relation to certain DCA's

 

Thanks

[george_h]

Under the CCA 1974 section 174 [1] says this

"No information obtained under or by virtue of this act about any individual shall be disclosed without consent"

 

and section 174 [5] says

"any person who discloses information in contravention of this section commits an offence"

 

You gave Liverpol Victoria your permission, but you will not have given it to TBI Financial -and Liverpool Vic's authority does not transfer with the agreement.

So they cannot inform the Court without contravening the Act. I imagine

they will have informed various cras about the debt, so they are in breach of

the Act there as well.

 

 

Thanks for that info but forgive me for been a bit slow, I am not sure what this means in relation to my problem. Are you saying that Liverpool Victoria gave all my details to TBI without my consent and have committed an offence? If so then I need to look at the original agreement because they may well have placed a clause somewhere in that saying they have a right to share information with other companies or sel the agreement or something.

[Seminole]

The position here is quite straightforward. The DCA is trying to bully and intimidate you by telling lies and being generally obnoxious.

 

You may, if you wish, send them an Income and Expenditure statement. The format of this is up to you but it should show the amount that you are able to afford to pay them. Priority debts like council tax should come first but general consumer debts should be repaid on a pro rata basis (ie you shouldn't favour one creditor over another).

 

Having done these calculations you should offer the DCA what you can afford and no more than this. It might be more than £4 or it might be less. If you have prepared your figures properly then you would be able to show them to a court if need be and the court would almost certainly accept them.

 

TBI's threat of a charging order is a clear breach of OFT guidelines and I would report them to both the OFT and your local trading standards. These companies only continue to get away with these sorts of baseless threats because not enough people complain about them. Everyone who becomes a "customer" of one of these companies should report every single breach of the law and OFT guidelines every time it happens. That is the only way that we will ever get a properly regulated and properly behaved debt collection sector.

[george_h]

Thanks all for the advice.

 

I have put all the correspondence together and I am sending copies to the OFT and Trading Standards. I have also updated my financial statement and will be sending this to TBI with an offer of £4.00. If anything my financial situation is worse but by payimng my debts pro rata I hope to be able to increase payments to them when some of my priority debts are cleared.

 

If that is not good enough then they can take me to court, at the end of the day they can't have what I haven't got.

 

I will let you know what happens.

[lookinforinfo]

They say that I never had a contract to pay a reduced rate and if I do not send them the financial statement they asked for then they will pursue court action. They say they have a legal right to be provided with a financial statement. The statement they are asking for wants to know everything and also I have to authorise them to make any enquiries with my creditors, employers and mortgage company./QUOTE]

 

George, write back and ask them under what Act and section do they

have a legal right to demand a financial statement from you, and also

as you are unaware of any act requiring you to authorise them access to

creditors etc, please supply that Act at the same time.

[Pen]

Hi Everyone, I am sorry to say that you are wrong in this instance or TFI who placed the charging order on my home acted illegal. They did not go to court to place a charging order on my home as they placed a intermin charging order on it directly with the land registry. Once they had done that they applied for a CCJ at court I defended the case and lost The Full charging order was to be heard right ofter my case, having won a CCJ the judge agreed to the Full Charging Order with interest added daily. I was not give a chance to pay the dept off by weekly installments if i could I would have. As the debt is mounting up each day. Also I argued in court that I did not owe this debt I even at the time think the dept may well have been 6 yrs old. The dept was for £1,220 and I showed the judge all my bank statements paying this amount. but once HSC sold it to TFI they added their own chargers so the Debt ended up being £2,000 plus or very close to it. So If you need to apply to a court for a interim charging order I think you are wrong, I even phoned the land register and they informed me that it can be done without them applying to court. Please tell me if I am wrong and if so how would I sort this out. I asked the judge if I could appeal against this discussion and I was inform No only on grounds of a legal error.

Pen

[djweeble]

The dept was for £1,220 and I showed the judge all my bank statements paying this amount. but once HSC sold it to TFI they added their own chargers so the Debt ended up being £2,000 plus or very close to it.................... I asked the judge if I could appeal against this discussion and I was inform No only on grounds of a legal error.

Pen

 

You could apply to have the judgement set aside, on the grounds that the debt is mainly made up of unlawful charges.

[Pen]

DJweeble, thanks, I am really really shocked by this thread. I have worried over this charging order for over 12 months thinking of the daily chargers. What I think I need to do now is the send both TFI and HSC a SAR with ten pounds and take it from there. If there is a point of law I could you then maybe you're right and I can get this set aside. I will need to hunt out the address and account number for HSC but this information should be on the SAR i will get from TFI. Will TFI send all the information they have on me ,ie how much they paid for the debt, the balance of the debt at the time of purchase, I will not need bank statements of them as it is not a bank so would I delete this from the SAR template.

George, please forgive me for asking all this in what is your post I did think I was trying to help by explaining my experience, I have a similer thread in this forum. I think they are only 2 of use with this problem at the moment but if your would rather I kept my comments to my own thread then please tell me. I just think we could help each other here and make it easier for others to advice, but its your call. Djweeble, I do not know how to do a link to direct you to my thread but you would find it in search under charging Orders.

If the course of action I now intend taking is wrong would one of you kind folks put me on the straight path.

Good luck Gorger in trying to sort this out, This forum was not around when I needed it.

[george_h]

No problem Pen. I am glad you posted because this puts a different slant on the whole thing. TBI said they would place a charging order on my property, I have been told they can't do this unless I default on a CCJ and even then any order has to be decided by the Court. Now you are saying that a company put a charging order on your property without any court order and according to the land registery anyone can place a charging order on a property without a court order.

 

I find this very worrying but on the other hand if a charging order can be enforced without a court judgement then surely every DCA would have done this to everyone who has an outstanding debt but owns property.

 

I cannot possibly see how a charging order can be placed unless a court judgement is made.

[Pen]

Hi Georgh, what they done was put a interim Charging order on first then applied for the full charging order on CCJ at the same time, I lost the CCJ, Full charging order was applied, No discussion re payments nothing ,charging order went on thats that the end, Honestly I called the Land registry office local to us and your right anyone can place a interim charging order on our homes. One way to find out is call your local Land register on Monday. If the court have done this wrong on a point of law, please let me know and I will go back to the courts.

Pen

[Pen]

Hi everyone, can I just say that I am practaly crying and shaking writing this post.

today I recieved my experian report and under TBI ( sorry it was not TFI ) who took me to court last year without a CCJ. The debt was for £1598.00 it now stands at £4646 thats in a year. I am sending them a SAR today but please can some one advice me on what to do there is no County Cort Judgment on the report for TBI.

Pleae help

Pen

[george_h]

I received a letter from Equidebt saying that I should contact them regarding my debt with TBI, for those following the thread you will recall that TBI are bullying and threatening me for increased payments I can't afford. I wrote to Equidebt saying that as far as I was concerned they had nothing to do with this debt, TBI had bought it from Liverpool Victoria and that using two debt collection agencies was a breach of OFT guidelines. Equidebt then sent me a Solicitors letter threatening further action.

 

I phoned Equidebt and they say that unless I send a financial statement they wil take further action. When I told them that the debt is with TBI and not them they said that TBI is my creditor and Equidebt are the collection agency so they have a right to the financial statement. I said that they must provide the relevant documentation under the CCA that they are administering the account and not TBI but they say they do not have to provide any documentation because they have not purchased the debt they are the collecting agents for TBI.

 

So it appears now I have TBI, Equidebt and a Solicitor all demanding action from me.

[Pen]

Hi George, The situation is not looking good for either of us, but keep your head up ans stay on top of it I'm sure with all the advice on here you will get it sorted. What I have found out is a company can apply for a interin charging order befor applying for a CCJ but once in court on the CCJ the judge will also her the charging order, this is now normal practice so you are not given time to pay or make a default on the CCJ. As the Chaging order by this time is granted. What I need to know George is do you have a address for TFI, I have searched my old documents and the internet and cannot find it, would you mind very much pming it to me. Thanks a lot and don't forget to keep us posted. My plan of action now is to wait for my statements and hopfully it would should a lot of unlawfull chargers so whilst claiming these back I will also claim for the amount of the charging order and this would not have happend had it not been a direct result of the chargers, all I need to do is prove it, so if anyone can advice us all help would be very appriciated by both of us please

Thanks Pen

[morris25]

Tell me I am in a similar position only that the stat name was issued in the name of a firm who did not exist for the 2 years before the order was made with misleading information being given to the court. Can anyone tell me if the wrong name of the demand makes the debt void