Rundles bailiff clamped my car for outstaanding CTAX FEES ONLY - help

[Screwedup81]

I initially fell in arrears with my Council tax after they had failed to provide standing order forms. I went on to make a late payment, which was immediately followed by a summons letter. After receiving the summons letter I contacted the council and was advised not to attend court as I was on job seekers allowance and that they wouldn't arrange or set up any arrangement before the court date. They didn't mention that they would be pursuing the debt and obtain a liability order.

 

Upon receiving the liability order following the court hearing which they advised me not to attend, I contacted the council again asking them why they had not made it clear to me that they were still pursuing legal actionand why I had been advised not to attend court. They responded by saying that attending court would not have made any difference.

 

Just to get things moving the council was clearly in power despite my concerns and they went on to tell me that they were to set up payment deductions with DWP from my jobseekers allowance.I did have some income request forms that they had sent along the liability order and asked if I had to complete the form and they advised me to disregard the forms as they were to set up the payments themselves.After this I was very positive and convinced things were moving forward.

 

The council went on to sent me another income request form again which I disregarded presuming that the payments would be automated. Shortly afterwards the council passed the debt to bailiffs. I contacted the council to ask them why they had passed the debt to bailiffs after they had advised me that the payments would be automated from DWP.

 

They then at the time told me that they had received the back as I was no longer on jobseekers I did ask the council why they had not written or contacted me to let me know that the payment had not been successfully set up.

 

They responded by saying that I should have responded to the income and expenditure which I had disregarded following the advise that the payments were to be automated.The council then told me that I should respond to all the letters irregardless without presumptions of what had previously happenned and that I should have reported changing in circumstances although I was still getting a weekly allowance and nowhere had they mentioned before that I had to report. (Furthermore I was still receiving a weekly allowance from the DWP and without any other income).

 

I was distressed by the council was adamant and they admitted no wrong doing and advised that they would still be pursuing the debt with Bailiffs whom they advised to get in touch with. I got tired off it and a few weeks later the Bailiffs came demanding a payment of £514 for a debt of £289 and advising that they will be returning to seize vehicles or goods in the next few days.

 

I got in touch with the council again and launched a formal complaint- over the phone but they were more dismissive, intimidating, exercising power and worse more not listening. Requested the complain to be upraised and contacted by someone from the recovery department who went on to hang on the phone down for me and ask me to deal with the bailiffs.

 

I wrote a formal complaint to the council following this but received a reply that they had done nothing wrong and that I still had to deal with the bailiffs. I went on to make an online payment of the full balance to the Council directly and not bailiffs.

 

Finally the bailiffs turned up demanding payment and clamped down a car which I do not own. I am the registered keeper. They asked for insurance document for proof and said this was more than adequate to prove that I was the registered keeper. I have a V5 document but the bailiffs told me that they would start charging for the time, so I made a payment.

 

Had a child who was there and very distressed and didn't want to cause any further distress and inconvenience of taking her to school without a car. They had already put clamped it and worse more not being an owner of the car would have caused further conflict with the owner.

 

I have now spend all the money I had with me and have nothing left over to survive.

 

Any advice?

[dx100uk]

check with the council that the LO is now paid?

 

then do a chargeback on the payment to the bailiff?

 

dx

[Screwedup81]

The bailiffs confirmed LO was paid and that they were pursuing fees. I have a receipt of the LO payment to the council.

 

What will be the process of pursuing the chargeback with the bailiffs?

[dx100uk]

urm... they clamped your car for unpaid fees on a ctax debt...urm..don't think so.

 

 

at what stage was this paid off

 

and how many visits had the bailiff made BEFORE you paid the LO.

 

in brief

 

give us the bullet pointed timeline with dates.

 

 

I need to pull a string here

 

dx

[dx100uk]

whos the bailiff please

[ploddertom]

When you paid the Council did you pay the amount outstanding + Bailiff Fees or just the outstanding amount?

[josephbloggs]

bailiff and company has done nothing wrong here.

 

they are perfectly entitled to use the issued liability order to collect their fees

even if you have paid the total of the arrears to the local authority.

 

the relevant section of the regulations is:-

 

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

Part 6 Regulation 45

Paragraph 3

“If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender)

is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.”

 

THEREFORE

If the amount is paid minus the costs, if a legitimate levy has already been made,

the company may continue enforcement action and remove goods/chattels seized previously.

 

FURTHERMORE

if there is no levy in place but first and second visit fees are still outstanding,

the levy can be proceeded with, potentially adding further costs.

[brassnecked]

If you pay the council, always add the visit fees into the total,

 

if there is no levy, as that would then discharge the liability order in full, as josephbloggs is correct there.

 

If there is a disputed levy, the visit fees should still be paid whilst the complaint procedure is ongoing.

[outlawla]

bailiff and company has done nothing wrong here. they are perfectly entitled to use the issued liability order to collect their fees even if you have paid the total of the arrears to the local authority.

the relevant section of the regulations is:-

 

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

Part 6 Regulation 45

Paragraph 3

“If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.”

THEREFORE

If the amount is paid minus the costs, if a legitimate levy has already been made, the company may continue enforcement action and remove goods/chattels seized previously.

FURTHERMORE

if there is no levy in place but first and second visit fees are still outstanding,

the levy can be proceeded with, potentially adding further costs.

 

You need to bear in mind that the regulations refer to the local authority's charges, i.e.,

"...(including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender)".

 

When enforcement is contracted to a private firm, the fees remain the local authorities in law

and would therefore question whether it would be lawful for the bailiff to levy on behalf of the council (in respect of fees)

because the council has not made the visits or incurred the costs

 

– a catch 22 situation really.

[tomtubby]

 

When enforcement is contracted to a private firm, the fees remain the local authorities in law and would therefore question whether it would be lawful for the bailiff to levy on behalf of the council (in respect of fees) because the council has not made the visits or incurred the costs – a catch 22 situation really.

 

 

Oultlawla,

 

A private sector bailiff is permitted to "take the place" of the local authority by being allowed to "levy upon goods" (on their behalf) and charge the appropriate fees".

 

The legislation that permits this is The Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996

[outlawla]

Oultlawla,

 

A private sector bailiff is permitted to "take the place" of the local authority by being allowed to "levy upon goods" (on their behalf) and charge the appropriate fees". The legislation that permits this is The Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996

 

The way it seems (from a legal angle) is that the service is contracted out,

not the fees and charges; they are always the local authorities.

 

The contract between the bailiff firm and council will presumably (in most cases) detail that the bailiff firm will be allowed to retain the fees collected,

or alternatively may invoice the authority for whatever they're entitled.

 

I can't see how the bailiff firm would be legally entitled to levy distress in respect of fees alone when they are in law the councils;

that is unless the council instruct the bailiff to do this on the grounds that the council would like paying its fees.

 

The problem then is that the local authority has no interest in doing this because it already has its money.

 

It would also be dubious in law if the council were to instruct bailiffs to levy for their fees when in fact the council has done no work.

[Screwedup81]

The actual council tax arrears was £178 and including fees £289, which was the payment made to the council. The fees paid to bailiffs fees was £250

bringing the total to £539

 

Below is just a brief summary

 

• Adjustment Notice- issued 5th of April
  
• Ist Payment date - due 1st of May and installments arranged to February 2014
  
• Mid May- Council claims reminder send
  
• 11th June- Payment made and account up to date- Arrangements set up over 12 months
  
• Payment due 1 July pending standing order forms
  
• Reminder issued 9th of July followed by default on 16th of July
  
• Payment made 23rd of July
  
• Ist of August Summons issued with court date set 20th of September
  
• 9th of August Contacted council and advised not to attend court or make any payment as on jobseekers
  
• 20th September - contacted council querying liability order and the misleading advise given prior to court.
  
• 26th of September- An attachment to benefit set up-
  
• 20th October- DWP writes to the council to advise no longer in receipt of suitable benefits and attachment returned
  
• 5th of November- Income request send out by council- Disregarded as still receiving a weekly allowance from DWP
  
• 8th January- Account passed to bailiffs
  
• 9th of January-Bailiffs letter to make contact with arrears
  
• 17th- Bailiff 1st Visit
  
• 20th of January- Contacted council - Advised that the payment set up had been returned-Complained regarding advise given - Council insists correctly passed to bailiffs
  
• 31st January- Bailiff reminder notice-Contacted council to launch a formal complain- Council denies any wrongful doing-Advised full amount due £289
  
• 31st- Paid the full amount of £289- (Actual C.Tax debt less any fees £178)
  
• 2nd of Feb- BailifF visit and levied on car. I advise not owner but registered keeper- Car clambed. A request for car insurance is made and Bailiffs advises its adequate to prove registered keeper- I deny and tell Bailiff that I have a V5 document- Waits for a few minutes and advise charges for waiting- I offer payment and Bailiffs makes payment using automated payment system.
  

[brassnecked]

What bailiff company is this?

 

It looks like the council just went on with the automated enforcement options

without any human intervention to actually check the account,

as in arrears show,

even though payment clears arrears,

because system says full payment due,

even though revenue office has reinstated instalments,

the LO is obtained and the bailiff sent.

 

Well I may be being cynical here,

but there is a profit in the LO fees for the council to the tune of 90 quid or so, and then fees for their bailiff.

 

Neither of which would be the case if common sense hasd prevailed.

 

A Formal Complaint to Head of Revenues, CEO, elected leader,

and involve your local council member to indicate how the council are treating its residents.

 

Oh also copy the complaint to your MP.

[ploddertom]

Your timeline of events although suggesting a catalogue of errors probably puts both you and the Council at fault.

 

Only when contacted by the Bailiffs did you pay and although the Council stated a sum that was due

- which you paid

- it did not take into account any fees that were due which at the time seem to be only £24-50,

and that is only on the assumption the Bailiffs letter was hand delivered and not via Royal Mail.

 

Looking at the issue of ownership of the car

- you say you are the Registered Keeper but not the owner.

 

Did you advise the owner the car had been seized and

 

did they in turn provide proof to the Bailiffs?

[Screwedup81]

Rundles are the bailiffs.

 

The letter was hand delivered by bailiffs and at the time the amount due was £519.

 

The owner of the car was never advised as bailiffs insisted the documentation available to be adequate for them to seize the vehicle.

 

Although I disagreed they warned me for further fees if they were to wait for a longer period for the evidence.

[ploddertom]

 

The letter was hand delivered by bailiffs and at the time the amount due was £519.

The owner of the car was never advised as bailiffs insisted the documentation available to be adequate for them to seize the vehicle. Although I disagreed they warned me for further fees if they were to wait for a longer period for the evidence.

 

If you were not the owner of the vehicle then they cannot seize it,

only the goods of the debtor may be.

 

What they told you next is a load of cobblers

 

as for Council Tax they may only charge according to the Regulations.

 

If you have not already done so then get a full breakdown from them.

 

It doesn't matter you have already paid as all this does is keep them off your back while you get back what they have unlawfully taken.

[Screwedup81]

The council tax arrears were £176 . Liability and Summons cost £113.

 

Bailiffs fee £250..

 

Just to clarify they clamped the car for about 10 minutes before I made a payment so no goods were ever seized.

 

I am inclined to think that the Bailiffs fees are also way too high. Isn't that they should have charged me fees only for a 1st and 2nd visit.

 

Where can I get this breakdown. from the council or bailiffs?

[dx100uk]

if you can pay you should be paying the council

direct via your internet banking site

never ever pay a bailiff.

but taken into consideration you MIGHT have 1st/2nd visit fees to pay VIA THE COUNCIL ONLY.

.

Here is something to be getting on with. First of all establish from the Council how much was owing etc You need to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

.

Next you need to send off for a breakdown of the charges the Bailiff applied. Here's an example, use and adapt at will and best sent initially by email backed up by a copy in the post.

.

"From:

My Name

My Address

.

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

.

Ref: Account No: 123456

.

Dear Sir

.

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

.

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

.

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

.

I require this information within 14 days.

.

Yours faithfully

.

Ripped off customer"

.

[brassnecked]

"Just to clarify they clamped the car for about 10 minutes before I made a payment so no goods were ever seized. "

 

The clamping was the seizure so the bailiff then added all those juicy unlawful fees, which they will have to refund

[Screwedup81]

Why would they have seized goods that didn't belong to me? Am I right to assume that the seizure was invalid as the car didn't belong to me?

Where should I sent my letter to- a little confused?. I am presuming to the council but not sure which will be the right department. If not resolved will try Local Ombudsman.

 

Below is a breakdown of the cost

 

Council Tax arrears £76

Court Fees(Summon and Liability) £213

Bailiff 1st Visit Fee, Jan 16th- £24.50

Bailiff 2nd Visit Fee, Jan 17th- £18.00

Payment made direct to council, Jan 17th- £289

Bailiff Levy Fee, Feb 3rd- £33.00

Bailiff Attendance/Van, Feb 3rd- £150

Payment by D/C- £1.00

Payment by D/C-£1.00(Charges for card payments- paid on separate cards)

[brassnecked]

So long as you have proof that you are not the owner, then the levy fees and other fees asssociated with it will have to be refunded.

[hallowitch]

Why would they have seized goods that didn't belong to me? Am I right to assume that the seizure was invalid as the car didn't belong to me?

Where should I sent my letter to- a little confused?. I am presuming to the council but not sure what will be the right department and if not resolved Local Ombudsman.

 

Below is a breakdown of the cost

 

Council Tex arrears £76

Court Fees(Summon and Liability) £213

Bailiff 1st Visit Fee, Jan 16th- £24.50

Bailiff 2nd Visit Fee, Jan 17th- £18.00

Payment made direct to council, Jan 17th- £289

Bailiff Levy Fee, Feb 3rd- £33.00

Bailiff Attendance/Van, Feb 3rd- £150

Payment by D/C- £1.00

Payment by D/C-£1.00(Charges for card payments- paid on separate cards)

 

 

 

Council Tax arrears £76

Court Fees(Summon and Liability) £213

 

who sent you this ?

 

 

from your post 13

 

The council tax arrears were £176 . Liability and Summons cost £113.

 

who told you this ?

 

they cant both be correct

[Screwedup81]

Got confused- those early figures were based on my assumptions.

 

These are the correct figures provided by both the council and bailiffs