Parked in a place or area not designated for that class of vehicle

[Tiagob]

Hi everyone,

 

I believe this episode is inserted in mitigating circumstances because when I arrived to the site I was finishing a delivery to a customer and I had parked in the bay with the display ticket clearly visible in the van. (it wasn't necessary)

When I was ready to leave the site I realize the approach of a CEO that however informed me that my van could not be there as it was an area not designated for class of vehicle. (I have a Luton van) and allegedly he thought I was parked there and pointed my registration

 

What are my chances of making challenge and run well? I received the PCN and I'm sure the CEO did not collect information from my road tax disc as also does not contain any pictures as proof in the PCN letter.

 

I parked on that bay to not obstruct the traffic flow on that street where only one car can transit in both directions and also for safety reasons I stopped at that bay (with display ticket).

I feel frustrated because I see that these people do everything possible to achieve their targets and I got £130 fine to pay

 

Can I prove something with my customer? what can I do?

 

Gratefull for your attention

Tiago

[Michael Browne]

What sort of bay were you parked in?

 

You were delivering and loading/unloading is an exemption to a code 23 contravention.

 

What's the exact location?

[Tiagob]

What sort of bay were you parked in?

 

You were delivering and loading/unloading is an exemption to a code 23 contravention.

 

What's the exact location?

 

It was a "permit holders or pay at the machine"

The street is "Caledon Road" on E6

[Jamberson]

You need to contact the council in question to find out whether there is a restriction on vehicle type/weight etc. There may or may not be, depending on the council's own regulations.

[Michael Browne]

Ok, this is a shared use bay.

 

There is nothing to prohibit parking in the bay to load/unload. If you have a order/delivery note, enclose a copy.

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

PCN No: XXXXXX

I wish to challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.

 

On [date] my vehicle was issued with a Penalty Charge Notice for the reason of [offence code and official reason for issue as stated on the Penalty Charge Notice.]

I was parked in a shared use bay whilst unloading goods to XX Caledon Road.

 

Please find enclosed evidence to this effect, in the form of the delivery note.

 

Loading/unloading is an exemption to contravention 23.

 

Therefor the alleged contravention did not occur.

 

For this reason I look forward to receiving notification that the Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Michael Browne

[Jamberson]

Ok, this is a shared use bay.

 

There is nothing to prohibit parking in the bay to load/unload. If you have a order/delivery note, enclose a copy.

 

Are you certain? Councils draw up their own regulations when it comes to things like that, so it can vary from area to area.

[Michael Browne]

See exemptions to Code 23 here (which includes shared use bays):

http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/policylobbying/transport/parkinginlondon/ceohandbook.htm

 

If Newham have different regulations, then it must have signage which makes that crystal clear.

 

They may well not allow vehicles of a certain size/weight in their P&D bays and no doubt, because he had a P&D ticket is why the CEO issued the PCN, which is why I made no mention of that in the reps.

[Tiagob]

I will check with the council if that street had any kind of restrictions even so I was unloading/loading so it might be fine

Unfortunately I dont have any order/delivery note, it will affect my challenge? Can I request some kind of declaration to my customer? or do I challenge on the grounds of no signage regarding the restrictions?

I think they used to have this information on the tickets machine

Edited January 17, 2014 by Tiagob

[Michael Browne]

What observation time is shown on the PCN?

 

I will check with the council if that street had any kind of restrictions

Personally I wouldn't, it's not for the motorist to check after the event, but for the council to make clear the restrictions before the event.

[Tiagob]

What observation time is shown on the PCN?

 

Personally I wouldn't, it's not for the motorist to check after the event, but for the council to make clear the restrictions before the event.

 

it was 12:38

[Michael Browne]

it was 12:38

 

On the PCN there should be (although not always) 'seen from xxx to xxx', which is the observation time the CEO made before issuing a ticket.

 

If there is no obs time that's another point in your favour because it means he did not make sufficient obs to ascertain whether loading/unloading was taking place.

 

Did you tell him you were delivering when he spoke to you?

[Michael Browne]

OK Newham PCN's have Obs Start Time, which i presume is 12.38, and Time of Contravention.

What's the time of Contravention?

[Tiagob]

OK Newham PCN's have Obs Start Time, which i presume is 12.38, and Time of Contravention.

What's the time of Contravention?

 

It doesn't have any time of contravention ... just 12:38 and the date of contravention

[Michael Browne]

Ok so no observation time at all. Re delivery note, it would help if you can get confirmation from your customer.

 

Did you tell the CEO you were delivering when he spoke to you?

 

Dear Sir,

 

pcn No: XXXXXX

I wish to challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.

 

On [date] my vehicle was issued with a Penalty Charge Notice for the reason of [offence code and official reason for issue as stated on the Penalty Charge Notice.]

I was parked in a shared use bay whilst unloading goods to XX Caledon Road.

 

Please find enclosed evidence to this effect, in the form of confirmation from Mr XXX of XX Caledon Road.

 

The PCN shows that no observation time was made, which is insufficient for the CEO to ascertain whether loading/unloading is taking place. This is at variance with Newham's own parking enforcement policy which allows for 5 minutes observation.

 

Loading/unloading is an exemption to contravention 23.

 

Therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.

 

For this reason I look forward to receiving notification that the Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Michael Browne

[Tiagob]

Ok so no observation time at all. Re delivery note, it would help if you can get confirmation from your customer.

 

Did you tell the CEO you were delivering when he spoke to you?

 

 

Thanks for all help Michael

I told him when I spoke to him.. but in the end I think he just didn't care about it! I'm getting used to this situations and here in London what really matters is the numbers imo.

I will keep you updated to see what's the result will be

[Jamberson]

See exemptions to Code 23 here (which includes shared use bays):

http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/policylobbying/transport/parkinginlondon/ceohandbook.htm

 

If Newham have different regulations, then it must have signage which makes that crystal clear.

 

They may well not allow vehicles of a certain size/weight in their P&D bays and no doubt, because he had a P&D ticket is why the CEO issued the PCN, which is why I made no mention of that in the reps.

 

This thread is in danger of leading the OP in the wrong direction. The whole loading/unloading issue is only important if he is allowed to use the bay in the first place.

 

I'm afraid your statement that variations in the regulations need to be on the signs is not right. Signs do not stipulate the minutiae of all the conditions of parking - which do vary from council to council.

 

I looked at the link you provided, and it says this: "The handbook provides guidance which has general relevance throughout London. It is accepted that there will be local variations in policy and these will be a matter for each borough. CEOs will be instructed on how to deal with local variations."

 

So, before going into the whole loading thing, he does need to call the council and find out whether his vehicle is allowed in the bay. If it is, then loading will be a possible defence. If it isn't, it won't be.

[Michael Browne]

http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/policylobbying/transport/parkinginlondon/loadingandunloading.htm

 

You can stop to load and unload on parking bays (pay and display, residents’ bays etc.) for a maximum of 20 minutes during controlled hours.........All commercial deliveries and collections (including multi-drop and couriers) are included in the exemption.

 

The whole point of the London Councils is that there is consistency of enforcement across all the London boroughs.

It is plainly ridiculous that drivers should contact the local council to find out what their policy is every time you cross a borough boundary.

 

There is no question that you are allowed to park in shared bays to load and unload.

[Jamberson]

There is very much a question of whether you are allowed. As I know myself, and as your own reference says, "there will be local variations in policy and these will be a matter for each borough". The OP needs to find out where he stands - whether you think it's ridiculous or not.

[Michael Browne]

This is presumably why the PCN was issued and because (needlessly he had purchased a P&D ticket): Although strictly speaking this is about resident and business permits not P&D

 

4.8 Large Vehicles

4.8.1 Large vehicles can cause obstructions for vehicles and pedestrians, reduce sight lines

(thereby increasing accident risk), and detract from the appearance of local streets.

Restrictions on vehicle dimensions for residents and business permits are therefore in

place to avoid very large vehicles parking on-street, especially on residential streets.

Vehicles, which exceed 5.3 metres in length and 2.3 metres in height, are not eligible

for any permits. Civil enforcement officers are able to issue penalty charge notices to

vehicles that are clearly larger than the maximum dimensions and any permit for that

vehicle can be withdrawn.

http://www.newham.gov.uk/Documents/Transport%20and%20streets/Parking-policy-and-procedures.pdf

 

But the loading exemption still applies. The CEO also ignored Newham's own obsevation guidelines of 5 mins obs for a code 23

23: Parked in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle . ON-STREET. 5 minutes

[Michael Browne]

]The OP needs to find out where he stands - whether you think it's ridiculous or not.

He can do that by sending the reps I suggested. The last thing he should do is phone the council, since a) councils will lie, b) it's verbal and therefore deniable.

[Jamberson]

Your quote is about eligibility for permits, which is irrelevant. You don't seem to get what I'm saying.

 

The issue of whether a certain class of vehicle is allowed to use a given bay is written into the local Traffic Order. Local authorities have leeway to determine for themselves which sorts of vehicles can use them, and the maximum sizes, weights etc. The regulations therefore vary from place to place and you can't presume to just know.

 

The only way to find out whether this vehicle is allowed to use that space is to enquire with the local authority as to what the regulations state. He needs to phone and ask - there is no reason why the council would lie to him about it, and your last comment borders on paranoia. He just needs to ascertain what the local regulations are.

 

The CEO clearly thinks his vehicle was not permitted. Your own sources say it might not be, and I think it might not be. So, he needs to check, and take it from there. It is very poor advice suggesting he shouldn't check at all and may therefore waste his appeal on what might be futile grounds, so he can learn the hard way. All he needs to do is phone and ask - I've half a mind to do it for him, since you seem to be doing your best to lead him up the garden path.

[Michael Browne]

Your quote is about eligibility for permits,

Which I noted in that post

 

The issue of whether a certain class of vehicle is allowed to use a given bay is written into the local Traffic Order. Local authorities have leeway to determine for themselves which sorts of vehicles can use them, and the maximum sizes, weights etc.

That's entirely possible, but if it is the council have a duty to convey that restriction to the motorist at the relevant parking bay. They haven't.

 

Even assuming that there is a restriction, there is still a loading exemption for Code 23, which trumps any class of vehicle restriction. By mentioning the class of vehicle angle at this stage , it's muddying the appeal and giving the council the opportunity to reject solely on class of vehicle grounds and ignore the loading exemption.

 

By concentrating on the loading angle they must address that and that alone and it's giving the council rope to hang themselves if they still mention the class of vehicle restriction, which can be dealt with at the NTO stage.

[green_and_mean]

The PCN is complete garbage! Unless there is a specific signed restriction the 'type of vehicle ' cannot be enforced. The code is designed for 'goods vehicle' or 'motorcycle' types of bay not for some small print inserted in a traffic order. I might become a CEO and go around dishing out PCNs because my Council doesn't like blue cars in bays or morris minors, would that seem fair? Many Councils refuse to issue permits to large vehicles but that is not the problem here. Vehicle size is controlled by the size of the bays if the van/lorry is too big then it will get a '24' for parking outside the bay markings. If nothing else the recipient hasn't a clue how to appeal as he hasn't been told what the 'wrong type of vehicle ' is and has no way of knowing by looking at the sign.

[rds60h]

In this instance there is a pay and display involved; which therefore involves a contract, therefore any ambiguity in a sign/notice has to be determined based on the interpretation that is the least favourable to the writer of the ambiguous statement. So if the notice does not state a vehicular restriction then it can be assumed that there is not a restriction and so the OP can park there.

This is known as "Contra Proferentem" if you Google that you will get the meaning of this and the vast array of situations that it covers, you could also check out Regulation 7(2) Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts 1999.

The Pay and Display represents the contract and so has to adhere to these conditions.

[Tiagob]

Hi everyone,

 

Unfortunately after sending a statement of my client (signed and dated with contact) who proved that I was doing a delivery to him that day, my justification was rejected.

Basically it was rejected due to insufficient proof and I did not serve the delivery invoice.

 

"The PCN was issued because the vehicle exceeded the 2.3 metres in height and 5.3 meter in lenght and not entitled to park in permit bays, shared bays or P&D bays within the Newham Controlled Parking Zones, as the vehicle had exceeded the height and length restrictions"

 

"My vehicle was observed by CEO for being parked in the road after 5 minutes observation time"

 

After these reasons I feel that they do not even bother to read my appeal and I think I have enough reasons to appeal to the adjudicator.