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2 Court Hearings already! - do courts abide by 'the law'??


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I see your point,

You may just be at the crux of the argument - the RTA uses the word 'usually' which is totally ambiguous

 

- Unless you see signs showing otherwise, a limit of 30 miles per hour (mph) or 48 kilometres per hour (km/h) usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting -

but also:

(2) Where a sign shown in a diagram whose number is indicated in column (2) of an item in Schedule 17 is placed for the purpose of conveying to vehicular traffic a warning, information, prohibition, restriction or requirement which applies only at certain times, the sign need only be illuminated, and in the case of the sign shown in diagram 776 shall only be illuminated, in accordance with that Schedule at those times.

 

An unrestricted dual carriageway has a 70mph limit

If no restriction is in place, then how can it be enforced?

 

But there was a restriction in place... in the absence of any maximum speed limit signs (or any other), the speed limit on any road with street lights no less than 200 yards apart, is 30mph. As I pointed out previously, the road isn't a dual carriageway as there is only ONE carriageway available to normal traffic. The other carriageway is a bus lane which is "live" all the time.

 

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even the local authority have agreed that it IS a Dual Carriageway!!

 

But it sin't as there is only ONE lane available to normal traffic... how many more times?

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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just for seeking understanding and clarification on liability - £800 & double points!! that's justice!!

 

Maybe if you had come here when you got pulled, you may of saved yourself all that hassle!

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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But it sin't as there is only ONE lane available to normal traffic... how many more times?

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

this isn't just 'my opinion' - officials from the local authority have stated that it IS a dual carriageway!

It is irrespective of the number of lanes... it is to do with the central reservation! -

 

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

Section 4 - “dual carriageway road” means a road which comprises a central reservation and “all-purpose dual carriageway road” means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway;

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Ok, let's put the definition of a dual carriageway to one side as that is irrelevant to your problem. The fact of the matter is that you were travelling at 56mph along a 30mph stretch of road. It matters not what type of road it was as it's fairly clear that the speed limit is 30mph because of the lack of signs saying otherwise and that there are street lights less than 200 yards apart.

 

Ignorance of the law isn't normally accepted as a valid defence.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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this isn't just 'my opinion' - officials from the local authority have stated that it IS a dual carriageway!

It is irrespective of the number of lanes... it is to do with the central reservation! -

 

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

Section 4 - “dual carriageway road” means a road which comprises a central reservation and “all-purpose dual carriageway road” means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway;

 

 

It doesn't matter if it is a single carriageway or a dual carriageway, it is a restricted road so the limit is 30mph.

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Whether it was a dual carriageway or not is neither here nor there. The road clearly has a system of street lighting and is therefore a restricted road within the meaning of the Road Traffic Regulation Act

 

81 General speed limit for restricted roads.

(1)It shall not be lawful for a person to drive a motor vehicle on a restricted road at a speed exceeding 30 miles per hour.

 

82 What roads are restricted roads.

(1) Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 84(3) of this Act, a road is a restricted road for the purposes of section 81 of this Act if—

(a)in England and Wales, there is provided on it a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart;

 

85 Traffic signs for indicating speed restrictions.

(5)In any proceedings for a contravention of section 81 of this Act, where the proceedings relate to driving on a road provided with such a system of street or carriageway lighting, evidence of the absence of traffic signs displayed in pursuance of this section to indicate that the road is not a restricted road for the purposes of that section shall be evidence that the road is a restricted road for those purposes.

No mention of dual carriageways or single carriageways. No "usually"s. No need for speed limit signs - the presence of streetlights and the absence of signs indicates that the road is a restricted road. The law is well settled and appealing further (to the High Court presumably) would only add another couple of grand to your costs. IMO you should quit while you're not too far behind.

 

Incidentally, a serious word of advice -

I was travelling (with my son) under common law...

...to attempt to gain jurisdiction over me...

We ascertained that the policy enforcement officers were not acting under oath...

I refused to contract with the officers...

I agreed to the contract on the condition that GM Police proved that I was Liable for their Notice...

Policy enforcement is one of the roles of the police officer, not acting under his/ her oath but rather acting as an enforcement officerlink3.gif for corporate policies (government, agencies, police and local authorities are all Corporations registered at companies house)...

if you really are thinking about risking a few thousand pounds on a further appeal, speak to a proper lawyer first rather than relying on the freeman on the land sites you read that sort of nonsense on. This is the sort of thing that tends to happen if you try to rely on it, and it will only get worse if you take it to more senior courts.

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...to attempt to gain jurisdiction over me.

 

...under common law along a Dual Carriageway...

 

Is this some pseudo FOTL stuff?

 

 

Yep, and it didn't work this time, he'll have to think up something else to try and outdo regulations. £800 fine, I recon you had a rubbish defence to get that much.

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Whether it was a dual carriageway or not is neither here nor there. The road clearly has a system of street lighting and is therefore a restricted road within the meaning of the Road Traffic Regulation Act

 

No mention of dual carriageways or single carriageways. No "usually"s. No need for speed limit signs - the presence of streetlights and the absence of signs indicates that the road is a restricted road. The law is well settled and appealing further (to the High Court presumably) would only add another couple of grand to your costs. IMO you should quit while you're not too far behind.

 

Incidentally, a serious word of advice -

 

if you really are thinking about risking a few thousand pounds on a further appeal, speak to a proper lawyer first rather than relying on the freeman on the land sites you read that sort of nonsense on. This is the sort of thing that tends to happen if you try to rely on it, and it will only get worse if you take it to more senior courts.

 

Thanks for your enlightenment, I probably won't pursue it any further.

Just to clarify: 'Carriageways' refer to the separated directions of travel, NOT the number of lanes. The local highways agree that it IS a dual carriageway, it should therefore have restrictions if they are going to be enforced!

 

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 Section 8 -

Restrictions need to come in the form of a pair of 'Terminal signs' at the start of the restriction and smaller repeater signs every 200 yards, otherwise it is unenforceable.

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Its like a monty python sketch in here :)

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

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The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 Section 8 -

Restrictions need to come in the form of a pair of 'Terminal signs' at the start of the restriction and smaller repeater signs every 200 yards, otherwise it is unenforceable.

 

A road restricted to 30mph cannot have repeater signs unless there are no street lights, and will have terminal signs where the speed limit changes from any other limit.

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Yep.

 

Even on the gosafe website, which the OP would have had a summary of the last time he was caught speeding, it says:

 

 

I was unaware of the speed limit

This is not a valid excuse. For your own safety as well as to comply with the law, you must be able to drive your vehicle safely, react to potential hazards and obey mandatory traffic signs at all times. Exceeding the limit unintentionally does not make speeding acceptable or the consequences of a high-speed collision any less tragic. For further information on speed limits and stopping distances see Know Your Limits.

 

I didn't see any repeater signs indicating a 30mph limit.

This excuse will not be accepted. As stated in the Highway Code, roads with street lighting in the UK are subject to a 30mph limit unless there are signs indicating a higher or lower limit. View http://www.streetlightsmean30.co.uk

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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Veering a bit OT but I see this argument all the time. A Dual Carriageway is, as correctly pointed out upthread: “a road which comprises a central reservation". There can be any number of lanes on each carriageway and they can be reserved for any class or classes of vehicle, which are referred to as 'designated lanes' in the design. Indeed, a bus lane in each direction separated by a central reserve would also be a dual carriageway. In the design standards (figures in chapter 4 at the link below) there are no notes anywhere restricting the number of lanes in either direction. There is no restriction either on the number of designated lanes that are provided, so a D1AP (Dual 1 lane each way all purpose road) where both are bus lanes would be fine, although not something that would be built. The standard only shows situations for 2 to 4 lanes each way because it would highly uneconomic to build a D1. For all the information you could ever want, see here: DMRB 6.1.2, chapter 4

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To me it seems quite simple and yes I have done the speed awareness course. Unless expressly stated otherwise the speedlimit on non motorways is 30 mph. Pointers to look out for, are there speed limit signs on side roads ? Are there street lights and no alternative signs?

 

I think if I pulled someone up for speeding and they started on the fotl I would get a bit p***** off.

 

You do not say what exactly was said to you but if you were potentially breaching the peace or acted as if youmay be under the influence maybe they thought you needed arresting.

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The last thing you should ever do is argue the toss with a Police officer. Thats what the courts are there for, to contest any arrest. If you make a scene when youa re arrested, theyll simply book you for breach of the peace, which you then have no way out of.

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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you are quite right, don't breach the peace in the presence of a police officer!!

as it was: I was very polite with the officer and asked if I was obliged to get out of the car and asked if I was obliged to give details and sign his notice. I was never arrested.

 

He refused to answer my polite questions and threatened damage to my personal property and incarcerate me if I did not comply.

As it stands we are NOT obliged to get out of the car or sign / agree to their contract.

 

In court the officer agreed that I was polite and asked questions but the magistrates insisted that I moved my questioning on when we got to the point of a police officer using threatening behaviour.

 

Annie: check your highway code: speed limit on a Dual carriageway for a car is 70mph!

 

Street lights: most motorways and dual carriageways have street lights - does this mean that they are all 30mph???

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Not the right place on here for the fmotl twaddle as its called here but it sounds like you failed by attending their administrative hearing (court).

You should have been filing an affidavit to the court asking for agreement for you to make a special appearance at your costs.

Also you missed out on the proof of claim and the injured party.

 

**edited out advert **

 

George

 

You sound like you've had previous experience at this, successfully??

and there's a bit missing out of the end of your message

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You sound like you've had previous experience at this, successfully??

and there's a bit missing out of the end of your message

 

because he was talking about FOTL stuff which doesnt work and can get you in very deep trouble.

 

You think you have problems now? If you use a FOTL argument in court, youd better be read for a whole new kind of problem.

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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is their any point discusing this further

 

op got caught speeding (AGAIN!)

didn't like it - argued it without a good reason - got the points he deserved

 

is arguing over what road it was going to get anywhere

im happy to say after 11 years of driving i have no fines what so ever

 

now il report my own post and ask for closure

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  • I am employed in the IT sector of a high street retail chain but am not posting in any official capacity,so therefore any comments,suggestions or opinions are expressly personal ones and should not be viewed as an endorsement or with agreement of any company.
  • i am not legal trained in any form.
  • I have many experiences in life and do often use these in my posts

if ive been helpful kick my scales, if ive been unhelpful kick the scales of the person more helpful :eek:

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Having not seen this thread I am going to close it for now and possibly permanently if the thread serves no purpose

 

Edit:

After fully reading this thread I am of the conclusion it fulfils no purpose whatsoever and will degenerate further should the thread be left open therefore it will stay closed,

 

OP. If you do not like this decision, I suggest you email:-

 

[email protected] (no spaces)

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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