2 Court Hearings already! - do courts abide by 'the law'??

[hiouija]

On the 13th October 2012 I was travelling (with my son) under common law along a Dual Carriageway, through a non residential area at a speed appropriate for the conditions.

 

At no time on the dual carriageway were there any speed restriction signs.

I came upon two policy enforcement officers hiding in the bushes with a speed camera.

They pulled me over at the end of the dual carriageway to attempt to gain jurisdiction over me.

I was adamant that no crime or traffic acts had been broken and the officers had no business pulling me over.

With the policy enforcers getting increasingly aggressive I was reluctant to leave the car & asked if I was under any obligation to get out or sign anything. They refused to answer my questions.

We ascertained that the policy enforcement officers were not acting under oath and yet they threatened to damage my personal and private property and incarcerate me if I did not comply with their unlawful demands.

I refused to contract with the officers and only gave my name and address under threat and duress.

 

shortly afterwards i received the FPN offer of £60 & 3 points.

I agreed to the contract on the condition that GM Police proved that I was Liable for their Notice.

I did not receive a reply In Substance, only an account of the police's side of the tale.

 

1. It is my understanding that the speed limit on a dual carriageway is 70 miles per hour (unless otherwise clearly signposted). Section 4 The Traffic Signs and Regulations and General Directions act 2002

 

2. It is my understanding that it is the responsibility of the local authority to ensure that any restrictions to roads are clearly signposted and illuminated. The Traffic Signs and Regulations and General Directions act 2002

 

3. It is my understanding that the speed restrictions are unenforceable unless the restrictions are clearly signposted and illuminated. Section 18 The Traffic Signs and Regulations and General Directions act 2002

 

· It was based on these Acts that I made an appeal to Crown Court after Magistrates chose to ‘deal with the matter in my absence’ despite me being present in court and stood up to give evidence.

 

· In December Dec 2013 a decision was made based on the judge’s personal opinion that the road was a single carriageway that the previous judgement was upheld.

 

· Further evidence from the Traffic & Network Management l Unity Partnership has revealed that the road is officially classified as a restricted dual carriageway.

 

· As we have already ascertained from the extensive photographs that the dual carriageway was not restricted with the required appropriate signage and that the speed limit on a dual carriageway is 70mph, I am therefore of the opinion that no offence has been committed or Act has been contravened. Had the road been displaying appropriate restriction signs then I would have had no intension to exceed them.

 

· I have been denied my right to be tried by my peers in a court-de-joure.

 

· I believe the case lies with the local authority whose responsibility it is to ensure the proper restriction signs are in place.

 

I have given the crown court opportunity to reconsider their decision for redirection before I launch a further appeal. - they have turned it down.

I have also asked for a copy of the court's digital recording and asked for the fine to be put on hold until the process has been completed - they have neglected to reply

 

I'm getting increasingly concerned that police officers can behave in this manner,

the magistrates appear to ignore the laws laid out for them and gloss over the police's indiscretion.

 

so far - 6 points , £800 court costs, £200 fine & £60 victim support

After unsuccessfully flighting this alone I am now more determined than ever to find assistance to find some kind of justice.

 

All constructive comments welcomed

[edjama]

What Road Were You On?

[hiouija]

it was the top section of the A627 - Ashton Rd, Oldham

[sailor sam]

Hmm.

 

I am going to ignore the fact that you obviously have a bee in your bonnet and are possibly of the opinion that you are absolutely correct.

 

Any advice given here will be based on the information you provide and our knowledge of the traffic laws. But I stress that ultimately you should seek professional face to face legal advice (if you haven't already done so).

 

Clearly the matter is at an advanced stage so it is important that we first of all know the EXACT location of where the alleged offence was committed.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[sailor sam]

it was the top section of the A627 - Ashton Rd, Oldham

 

The road appears to be quite long so can you be a bit more specific? Nearest road junction will help.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[havinastella]

Which direction were you traveling, from which points were you observed, WHO stopped you (What's a policy enforcement officer) How fast were you going?

[hiouija]

I was under the impression that police are not allowed to threaten personal or criminal damage in order to get you to accept their demands.

I thought that police and courts were there to administer justice according to 'the law' and not their personal opinion.

[sailor sam]

Assuming that you were travelling along the section from the traffic round-a-bout junction with the A62, the road has the appearance of a dual carriageway but in fact it is part bus lane thus meaning only one lane is available to normal traffic. Not 100% sure, but I think that could make it a single carriageway as the bus lane appears to be live at all times. In the absence of speed restriction signs, the speed limit would be 30mph providing that the street lights are no more than 200 yards apart.

 

Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with “a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart”. Section 81 specifically makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than 30 mph on a restricted road.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Edited January 13, 2014 by sailor sam

[hiouija]

travelling south at 56mph, entering dual carriageway at Falcon St.

Police were at Cowling st. at the end of the dual carriageway.

Policy enforcement is one of the roles of the police officer, not acting under his/ her oath but rather acting as an enforcement officer for corporate policies (government, agencies, police and local authorities are all Corporations registered at companies house)

[renegadeimp]

Is this some pseudo FOTL stuff?

[hiouija]

It's not dependant on the number of lanes, bus lanes or street lights -

 

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

Section 4 - “dual carriageway road” means a road which comprises a central reservation and “all-purpose dual carriageway road” means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway;

 

for all those who've done their speed awareness course - they will be aware that the speed limit on a dual carriageway is 70mph!

[sailor sam]

As far as I can see, the speed limit is 30mph. Your argument about the police will no doubt get you no where. Unfortunately we all are governed by the same laws, police included.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[hiouija]

Is this some pseudo FOTL stuff?

 

what is a pseudo FOTL?

 

I still haven't heard anything that makes any sense of the trauma and confusion that has been caused by over zealous officers keen to raise funds using a form of 'stealth tax'.

[sailor sam]

It's not dependant on the number of lanes, bus lanes or street lights -

 

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

Section 4 - “dual carriageway road” means a road which comprises a central reservation and “all-purpose dual carriageway road” means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway;

 

for all those who've done their speed awareness course - they will be aware that the speed limit on a dual carriageway is 70mph!

 

Clearly you haven't done a speed awareness course as you are totally incorrect. The maximum speed limit (70mph) only applies where there is signage saying so. (circular sign with white back ground with a diagonal black band through it). If those (or any other) signs are not present, then the speed limit is 30mph.

 

The road in question is not by definition a dual carriageway as there is only a single lane in each direction available to normal traffic. The presence of the central reservation is irrelevant.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[renegadeimp]

It isnt your concern why they do it, or where the money goes. Your concern is if you broke the law or not. If you maintain you didnt, then you need to set out a strong argument why you think that. Your posts here wouldnt stand up in court as you keep getting sidetracked by why the police do it.

[hiouija]

It isnt your concern why they do it, or where the money goes. Your concern is if you broke the law or not. If you maintain you didnt, then you need to set out a strong argument why you think that. Your posts here wouldnt stand up in court as you keep getting sidetracked by why the police do it.

 

answering a question from another forum user - 'havinastella'

[hiouija]

answering a question from another forum user - 'havinastella'

 

The Magistrates actually congratulated me on a well presented case

[hiouija]

Clearly you haven't done a speed awareness course as you are totally incorrect. The maximum speed limit (70mph) only applies where there is signage saying so. (circular sign with white back ground with a diagonal black band through it). If those (or any other) signs are not present, then the speed limit is 30mph.

 

The road in question is not by definition a dual carriageway as there is only a single lane in each direction available to normal traffic. The presence of the central reservation is irrelevant.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

I see your point,

You may just be at the crux of the argument - the RTA uses the word 'usually' which is totally ambiguous

 

- Unless you see signs showing otherwise, a limit of 30 miles per hour (mph) or 48 kilometres per hour (km/h) usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting -

but also:

(2) Where a sign shown in a diagram whose number is indicated in column (2) of an item in Schedule 17 is placed for the purpose of conveying to vehicular traffic a warning, information, prohibition, restriction or requirement which applies only at certain times, the sign need only be illuminated, and in the case of the sign shown in diagram 776 shall only be illuminated, in accordance with that Schedule at those times.

 

An unrestricted dual carriageway has a 70mph limit

If no restriction is in place, then how can it be enforced?

[hiouija]

It isnt your concern why they do it, or where the money goes. Your concern is if you broke the law or not. If you maintain you didnt, then you need to set out a strong argument why you think that. Your posts here wouldnt stand up in court as you keep getting sidetracked by why the police do it.

 

The magistrate congratulated me on a well presented case!

[richard_se11]

It isn't a dual carriageway. The judge has told you it isn't a dual carriageway. The The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, Section 4 -

“dual carriageway road” means a road which comprises a central reservation and “all-purpose dual carriageway road” means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway; one of the lanes is not for "all purpose" and I suspect the Transport Act 2004 and TMO giving authority to the Bus Lane will suggest that it is not a dual carriageway. It seems clear that the limit is 30.

Edited January 13, 2014 by richard_se11
sent when half way through typing

[hiouija]

It isn't a dual carriageway. The judge has told you it isn't a dual carriageway. The The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, Section 4 -

“dual carriageway road” means a road which comprises a central reservation and “all-purpose dual carriageway road” means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway;

 

even the local authority have agreed that it IS a Dual Carriageway!!

[havinastella]

The magistrate congratulated me on a well presented case!

 

And THEN fined you £800 and victim charge and THEN doubled your points to six.

 

Congratulations.

[hiouija]

It isn't a dual carriageway. The judge has told you it isn't a dual carriageway. The The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, Section 4 -

“dual carriageway road” means a road which comprises a central reservation and “all-purpose dual carriageway road” means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway; one of the lanes is not for "all purpose" and I suspect the Transport Act 2004 and TMO giving authority to the Bus Lane will suggest that it is not a dual carriageway. It seems clear that the limit is 30.

 

It was the magistrate's opinion that it wasn't a dual carriageway - it doesn't necessarily mean they are correct!

[hiouija]

And THEN fined you £800 and victim charge and THEN doubled your points to six.

 

Congratulations.

 

ROFL - yay wd me!!

[havinastella]

It's not dependant on the number of lanes, bus lanes or street lights -

 

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

Section 4 - “dual carriageway road” means a road which comprises a central reservation and “all-purpose dual carriageway road” means a dual carriageway road which is not a motorway;

 

for all those who've done their speed awareness course - they will be aware that the speed limit on a dual carriageway is 70mph!

 

Are you a habitual speeder then?