My Letter to ANPR

[therichieboy]

Hello to All:

 

Could you helpful, decent folks please review the letter I am about to send to ANPR Ltd about a supposed fine I have to pay and let me know what you think?

 

I'm very sorry I haven't searched much or checked if I'm violating forum rules here as I'm in a rush. Apologies in advance.

 

The short story is I was picking something up from a business park and saw no warning signs. I did get a note but only of warning and that I'd be clamped next time. I threw this away after a couple of weeks as I thought it was all over. Next thing I get my FINAL warning in the post- nothing else before this.

 

Here is a copy of my letter:

 

Dear Sir/ Madam,

 

Thank you for your Outstanding Parking Notice letter dated 08/01/2014.

 

I intend to appeal against it as of 10/01/2014.

 

Unfortunately I have had no evidence until receiving your letter mentioned above of any penalty charge. The document attached to my car was NOT a ‘Parking Charge Notice’ as your letter calls it, it was a document of warning, and NO MENTION OF ANY FINE appeared anywhere on the document issued to me.

 

In addition I saw and still see no evidence of one of your warning signs:

 

 

in the location my car was loading at. Please follow this link to Google Street View to view the location my car was stopped at:

 

XXXXXXXXXXX

 

I request that you provide me with the photographic evidence that you issued me a ‘Parking Charge Notice’ as your above dated letter refers to it, and that you also provide me with evidence that there was a warning notice sign in the area I was loading my car at.

 

I also request that you clarify the terms “trespassed” and “damages” that you use in the above letter and provide me with evidence of so called “damage”. I was loading my car from a business in the Jaggard Way Industrial Estate and it is my understanding that loading a car outside a business that I was invited to visit constitutes neither trespass nor damage. My assessment may not agree with your “company’s wishes” as you state it in your letter. I am not explicitly aware of what your “wishes” are and what legal force they hold. Please clarify.

 

Your letter also states that I have “chosen to ignore/waiver/forfeit [my] early settlement offer of a 50% discount”. I have made NO SUCH CHOICE given the absence of any reference from your company of any fine whatsoever before the date of the above mentioned letter; 08/01/2014.

 

I insist that you advise me as to the identity of the 3rd party mentioned in your letter and what powers of enforcement they hold. I also insist that you provide me with some idea of what the “outside contractor’s actions” might be. I want a full rundown on your legal right to threaten me with proceedings.

 

I would furthermore like to mention that your letter fails to make crystal clear the full fine, as sums of £100, £140 and several other figures are mentioned in it. Either way I consider any of these sums as disproportionate to any alleged contravention. I will be consulting the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 as I’m perplexed as to how you could possibly have grounds to charge such a disproportionate sum.

 

It is my understanding that I am NOT OBLIGED TO PAY YOU ANY MONEY until I receive a satisfactory response to my request that you rectify your failure to issue me clear, concise information about any fine, as per the directions of the BPA and Citizen’s Advice Bureau.

 

If you reject my appeal I will kindly ask that you immediately issue me explicitly with a POPLA code so I may initiate proceedings with them. They will be receiving a copy of this letter.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

XXXXXXX

 

Thank you so much

Rich

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

Is this letter a Notice to Owner?

 

I wouldn't acknowledge that you were the driver and also remove all references to 'fine' as it is not a fine but a speculative invoice.

 

Better minds than mine will give more advice on the content of your letter so don't send it yet.

[therichieboy]

Hi and welcome to CAG

 

Is this letter a Notice to Owner?

 

I wouldn't acknowledge that you were the driver and also remove all references to 'fine' as it is not a fine but a speculative invoice.

 

Better minds than mine will give more advice on the content of your letter so don't send it yet.

 

It doesn't specifically say 'Letter of notice to owner ', it just says the vehicle is registered/ hired to me.

Thanks for the advice, I'll keep my ear to the ground.

[therichieboy]

Should I remove the word 'appeal' too, as it implies that it is a legitimate fine, not an invoice?

[esmerobbo]

ANPR Ltd are the Tom & Jerry of parking companies, they are ex clampers who have not got a clue how parking charges work, or how this should be done. You wont receive anything from them that is compliant with POFA, however you will receive a lot of worthless meaningless waffle. As Silverfox1961 says use "I am the keeper" rather then "I" and send your letter, the time for a concise appeal is when it goes to POPLA. Be very careful they were hiding the POPLA code, now they send it out late, hoping you miss the cut off date.

[silverfox1961]

Appeal is fine as you are following procedure. It doesn't really matter what you put in your letter as ANPR usually reject appeals as a matter of course but you still have to go through them to get the POPLA number. With the appeal to POPLA this costs ANPR, not you and the only way they can enforce anything is to go through the courts.

 

Now, it is likely that ANPR do not own the land they have cameras on and they most probably do not have permission of the landowner to chase these invoices through the courts so if anyone was to take you to court, it would be the landowner and they have far better things to do than chase a piddling amount.

 

All this waffle boils down to the fact that ANPR are just looking for a mug to fleece and it ain't gonna be you

[therichieboy]

So should I change for example 'I request that....' to 'The keeper of the car requests...'?

[therichieboy]

Brilliant- thanks to you all for your advice.

[therichieboy]

Edited:

 

 

Dear Sir/ Madam,

 

Thank you for your Outstanding Parking Notice letter dated 08/01/2014.

 

I intend to appeal against it as of 10/01/2014.

 

Unfortunately I have had no evidence until receiving your letter mentioned above of any penalty charge. The document attached to my car was NOT a ‘Parking Charge Notice’ as your letter calls it, it was a document of warning, and NO MENTION OF ANY PAYMENT TO YOUR COMPANY appeared anywhere on the document issued.

 

In addition I saw and still see no evidence of one of your warning signs:

 

 

in the location the vehicle you mention was loading at. Please follow this link to Google Street View to view the location outside the business the vehicle made alleged breach of your “company’s wishes”:

 

XXXXXXXXXXX

 

I request that you provide me with the photographic evidence that you issued to the vehicle a ‘Parking Charge Notice’ as your above dated letter refers to it, and that you also provide me with evidence that there was a warning notice sign in the area the vehicle was being loaded at.

 

I also request that you clarify the terms “trespassed” and “damages” that you use in the above letter and provide me with evidence of the so called “damage”. The vehicle was being loaded from a business in the Jaggard Way Industrial Estate and it is my understanding that loading a car outside a business VISITED BY INVITATION constitutes neither trespass nor damage. My assessment may not agree with your “company’s wishes” as you state it in your letter. I am not explicitly aware of what your “wishes” are and what legal force they hold. Please clarify.

 

Your letter also states that I have “chosen to ignore/waiver/forfeit [my] early settlement offer of a 50% discount”. I have made NO SUCH CHOICE given the absence of any reference from your company of any ‘invoice’ whatsoever before the date of the above mentioned letter; 08/01/2014.

 

I insist that you advise me as to the identity of the 3rd party mentioned in your letter and what powers of enforcement they hold. I also insist that you provide me with information as to what the “outside contractor’s actions” might be. I want a full rundown of your legal right to threaten me with proceedings.

 

I would furthermore like to mention that your letter fails to make crystal clear the full sum of the ‘invoice’, as figures of £100 and £140 amongst several others are mentioned in it. Either way I consider any of these sums as disproportionate to any alleged contravention. I will be consulting the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and the POFA 2012 as I’m perplexed as to how your business could possibly have grounds to issue an ‘invoice’ for such a disproportionate sum.

 

It is my understanding that I AM NOT OBLIGED TO PAY YOU ANY MONEY. My “wishes” are that I receive a satisfactory response to my request that you rectify your failure to issue me clear, concise information regarding this matter, as per the directions of the BPA, the Citizen’s Advice Bureau and the Consumer Action Group.

 

If you reject my appeal I ask that you issue me explicitly and without delay with a POPLA code so I may initiate proceedings with them. They, the CAG and the business the driver of the vehicle was invited to will be receiving a copy of this letter.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

XXXXXXXXX

[f16]

It is a shame you binned the original ticket on the car. Can you remember the date ? They only have a limited amount of time between the ticket on the car and notification by post

Others on this site will assist you further. Follow advice on here. Fight it DON'T pay it. Good luck

[therichieboy]

It is a shame you binned the original ticket on the car. Can you remember the date ? They only have a limited amount of time between the ticket on the car and notification by post

Others on this site will assist you further. Follow advice on here. Fight it DON'T pay it. Good luck

 

I knew it as I chucked it that I was doing the wrong thing. I was spring cleaning all the beaurocratic crap from my life that builds up.

 

The date was 19/11/13.

[f16]

I think I'm right in saying from when you got the ticket on the car to the one in the post they had 56 days. If you got this today I make it 52 or 53 days. I might be wrong on that because like you I'm new to this. If I am wrong someone will correct the point.

You say there were NO signs. Have a look at BPA Code of practice Section B4 .2 Regarding signage.

[therichieboy]

I think I'm right in saying from when you got the ticket on the car to the one in the post they had 56 days. If you got this today I make it 52 or 53 days. I might be wrong on that because like you I'm new to this. If I am wrong someone will correct the point.

You say there were NO signs. Have a look at BPA Code of practice Section B4 .2 Regarding signage.

 

Will do. They mention 42 days on the letter in relation to something but I don't have it to hand right now. I'll check. Cheers.

[ericsbrother]

I would simplify the appeal to "my vehicle and its driver were not trespassing. Only the landowner may claim damages for trespass and you are not the landowner so claims for damages for trespass would not apply in any case. There were no signs visible so no contract may be formed by offer and consideration as you werent offering anything for me to consider. If you believe that there are matters of fact that make the above unture then please supply a POPLA reference number and I will consider your evidence at the appropriate time."

Make them prove their point as they are required to do so.

[therichieboy]

I would simplify the appeal to "my vehicle and its driver were not trespassing. Only the landowner may claim damages for trespass and you are not the landowner so claims for damages for trespass would not apply in any case. There were no signs visible so no contract may be formed by offer and consideration as you werent offering anything for me to consider. If you believe that there are matters of fact that make the above unture then please supply a POPLA reference number and I will consider your evidence at the appropriate time."

Make them prove their point as they are required to do so.

 

I adjusted it a bit with your advice, thanks.

[therichieboy]

The letter is off and should arrive tomorrow. I'll let you all know what happens. Thanks again for all your advice. All power to the consumer!

[therichieboy]

Hi All,

Just heard back from them:

 

RE: Ticketing incident xxxxxx

 

Having read your letter dated 18/01/2014, and taking into consideration that I personally know the site, I have also talked to the issuer, and seen the photographic evidence, all of which confirms the relevant details of the incident, Please allow me to explain:- a reference number was created by the 'ticketer' and written on the PCN (Parking Charge Notice) which provides our telephone operators with a better understanding of the incident. The first digit 'P refers to the caption on the sign 'Permit Holders only' which in turn relates to the infringement 'Not displaying in the windscreen a current or valid permit'. The next four digits refer to the time of incident (14:51) allowing for any grace periods, whilst the last two letters indicate the operators initials or callsign: FC.

 

The generic definition of the infringement 'Not displaying in the windscreen a current or valid permit' is as follows;- the only way to determine who has permission to park is by displaying a current and valid permit. Once a permit scheme is introduced it applies to all and is for the benefit of the community. Unfortunately the permit is only valid if it is displayed in an appropriate manner, regardless of whether or not you are entitled to be there. There are those (and I don't mean you) who lend permits to others, who have no entitlement to park on the provisio that if the permit holder receives a PCN, the non-permit holder returns the permit to it's owner who will claim 'it had fallen off my windscreen'. Due to this very reason, we decided that if a permit is not on display it could be mis-used elsewhere.

 

In light of the above, perhaps you will understand why the PCN was issued, and although I really do sympathise, I must stress that we are contracted by the landowner to enforce the terms & conditions that are stated on the signage at the location, and in these circumstances they have been breached. In conclusion we would suggest that you may wish to re-consider your claim to appeal, as this would nullify any discounts that remain and (should you lose) may incur further costs. If you still feel that you have a valid case to appeal, please write to us again and we will provide you with full details for the Independent Appeals Service (POPLA).

As requested please find enclosed photographic evidence of the parking offence.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

Here's my response as stands at the moment:

 

In reply to your letter dated 20/01/2014 I wish to refer you back to my letter dated 10/01/2014.

 

In my letter I requested a number of clarifications of an alleged infringement. Your latest correspondence has not done so. I also requested you explain your failure to clearly inform me of any unpaid invoice until the original letter from ANPR Ltd dated 08/01/2014 in which it was stated I had 42 days from the time of the alleged infringement to pay invoice/ lodge an appeal. As you have failed to provide me with a POPLA code as explicitly requested in my previous letter, I am now at further risk or recrimination from yourselves due to your procrastination. Your letter dated 20/01/2014 states my failure to pay immediately will ‘nullify any discounts that remain’. As I now fall outside your stated 42 day payment/appeal period I request ONCE AGAIN that you clarify the full total of the unpaid invoice and exactly what sums will or would have been discounted during the overall period between the alleged ‘offence’ and the date of your last letter.

 

Below I quote my letter dated 10/01/2014 in italics, followed by current notes in bold:

 

• I request that you provide me with the photographic evidence that you issued to the vehicle a ‘Parking Charge Notice’ as your above dated letter refers to it, and that you also provide me with evidence that there was a warning notice sign in the area the vehicle was being loaded at.

 

The two photographs of the vehicle registered in my name attached in your letter dated 20/01/2014 do not clarify anything except what the vehicle looks like (something which I am already familiar with). I re-submit my request.

 

 

• I also request that you clarify the terms “trespassed” and “damages” that you use in the above letter and provide me with evidence of the so called “damage”.

 

I am not explicitly aware of what your “wishes” are and what legal force they hold. Please clarify.

 

I insist that you advise me as to the identity of the 3rd party mentioned in your letter and what powers of enforcement they hold. I also insist that you provide me with information as to what the “outside contractor’s actions” might be. I want a full rundown of your legal right to threaten me with proceedings.

 

Not satisfied. I re-submit my request.

 

• My “wishes” are that I receive a satisfactory response to my request that you rectify your failure to issue me clear, concise information proving that there is any contractual relationship between your company and myself that warrants your invoice, as per the directions of the BPA, the Citizen’s Advice Bureau and the Consumer Action Group.

 

I still have not been given an explanation as to why I was never sent any correspondence between the date of the alleged infringement and ANPR Ltd’s letter dated 8/01/2014 to inform me of an unpaid invoice and an ‘early payment discount period’.

 

• If you reject my appeal I ask that you issue me explicitly and without delay with a POPLA reference number so I may initiate proceedings with them.

 

I have already made my appeal and you have failed to issue me with a POPLA number.

 

 

Your failure to provide me with my rightful information within your own specified lead time will be made clear to POPLA.

 

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

See what you think and thanks in advance for any advice.

 

Rich

Edited February 22, 2014 by ims21

[f16]

" SPOT ON".I would send that recorded delivery

[esmerobbo]

"Having read your letter dated zz/zz/zzzz, and taking into consideration that I personally know the site",

 

He certainly gets about this boy he says that on most of his letters!

[therichieboy]

He certainly gets about this boy he says that on most of his letters!

 

He or she? They can't even provide me with that info. The letter has an initial and a surname followed by a laser printed signature.

[kirkbyinfurnesslad]

Your letter back is far to long

 

Simply write back saying your have nothing further to add and that they should provide you a Popla code forthwith, advise them as per they BPA you shouldnt have to be writing to ask for a popla code.

 

------------

 

He certainly does Esmerobbo, anyone would think he was lying

[esmerobbo]

If I was a betting man I would bet that when you receive your POPLA code it is dated as of the letter you received, and it will be dated well before it is posted, and it will arrive one or two days before the code runs out!

[ericsbrother]

they are stalling, write to them and tell them that you do not like their time wasting and just supply the POPLA code as their waffle doesnt impress you and wont defect you from your demand.

[ericsbrother]

a complaint twith your POPLA appeal to both POPLA and the BP wouldnt hurt.

[therichieboy]

a complaint twith your POPLA appeal to both POPLA and the BP wouldnt hurt.

 

BP as in British park ink assoc.?