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Distance Selling Regs and Cars *** Discussion Thread ***


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This discussion thread has been started from posts made here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?413974-dealer-refuses-to-return-deposit

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

OP you paid the man to remove the car from sale. You agreed to buy the car. You changed your mind. There is no cooling off period. Overseas or not.

 

Nobody can say whether or not the trader could of sold the car or not in the intervening time. But I don't think witholding the entire amount is unfair at all. The depreciation on that car at those miles in CAP black book from December to January is £300 within the trade.

 

DSR's do not apply to cars as they are one off items.

Edited by ims21
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OP you paid the man to remove the car from sale. You agreed to buy the car. You changed your mind. There is no cooling off period. Overseas or not.

 

Nobody can say whether or not the trader could of sold the car or not in the intervening time. But I don't think witholding the entire amount is unfair at all. The depreciation on that car at those miles in CAP black book from December to January is £300 within the trade.

 

DSR's do not apply to cars as they are one off items.

 

That's All Wrong

 

The OFT has published guidance for car dealers on how to comply with distance selling legislation.

 

The new guidance outlines how motor retailers who sell vehicles with no face-to-face contact – such as online, by mail order or on the telephone – need to comply with the Distance Selling Regulations (DSRs). The guidance applies to both secondhand and new car dealers.

 

Download Cars and other vehicles sold by distance means (pdf 412 kb).

 

Download consultation response (pdf 169 kb).

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So hang on a year and you can have the car for nothing.

 

Or 2 days after the OP agreed to buy the car dealer could of sold it to someone with money not dreams.

Edited by popeyethesailortam
Unfair comment edited - reason for not continuing with the purchase is not know.
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http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_protection/oft689.pdf

 

Read section 1:10 to see how much faith the OFT have in their 'guidance'

 

Read also here: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf

 

For more detail on how consumers can give notice of

cancellation see the full text version of the ‘Guide for businesses

on distance selling’ on the OFT website at:

http://www.oft.

gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf

Unless you have agreed that they can, your consumers cannot

cancel if the order is for:

services where you have had the consumer’s agreement

to start the service before the end of the usual cancellation

period and you have provided the consumer with the

required written information before you start the service,

including information that the cancellation rights will end

as soon as you start the service

goods or services where the price depends on

fluctuations in the financial markets which cannot be

controlled by the supplier

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From your own link:

 

3 DISTANCE SELLING OF CARS TO CONSUMERS

 

Do the DSRs apply?

 

3.1 The DSR's apply to distance contracts for goods and services, (other than excepted contracts), concluded between a supplier

and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service provision scheme (see below).

 

3.2 A distance contract is defined as one where the supplier 'for the purpose of the contract, makes exclusive use of one or more

means of distance communication up to and including the moment at which the contract is concluded'.

This means that there is no face to face contact between the supplier and the consumer at any point during the contract-forming

process, which ends when the consumer is committed to making a purchase.

 

3.3 The DSRs therefore apply if you sell cars to consumers without any face to face contact with the consumer for the purpose of concluding the contract, eg:

• over the internet

• by interactive digital television

• by mail order, or

• by fax.

 

 

There is a world of difference between services and goods

Edited by Conniff
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From your own link:

 

3 DISTANCE SELLING OF CARS TO CONSUMERS

 

Do the DSRs apply?

 

3.1 The DSR's apply to distance contracts for goods and services, (other than excepted contracts), concluded between a supplier

and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service provision scheme (see below).

 

3.2 A distance contract is defined as one where the supplier 'for the purpose of the contract, makes exclusive use of one or more

means of distance communication up to and including the moment at which the contract is concluded'.

This means that there is no face to face contact between the supplier and the consumer at any point during the contract-forming

process, which ends when the consumer is committed to making a purchase.

 

3.3 The DSRs therefore apply if you sell cars to consumers without any face to face contact with the consumer for the purpose of concluding the contract, eg:

• over the internet

• by interactive digital television

• by mail order, or

• by fax.

 

 

There is a world of difference between services and goods

 

Explain?

3.1 The DSR's apply to distance contracts for goods and services, (other than excepted contracts), concluded between a supplier

and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service provision scheme (see below)

 

As per section 1:10 of the first link.

OFT tells you it is their interpretation. It is not law.

Secondly, One off goods are not covered under DSR's.

Lastly, items (such as used cars) that have their values fluctuating due to market forces are not covered under DSR's.

 

This does however highlight the ridiculous area of consumer law. Especially with ill conceived rubbish coming from the numbskulls at Brussells trying to justify their existence, like DSR's. We currently have the situation where SOGA and other UK legislation is in direct conflict to what European legislation says.

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Sorry, but not nitpicking.

 

From Oxford dictionary. 3 (goods) merchandise or possessions:imports of luxury goods stolen goods [in singular]:the market price of an agricultural good British things to be transported, as distinct from passengers:a means of transporting passengers as well as goods

 

Please leave this up as I believe my interpretation & realities of DSR's will be of help to the OP & other forum users in similar circumstances.

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But lets look at it in another way Conniff.

 

You advertise your £5k car on ebay. I phone you and say I'll have it let me put £500 in your account to hold it for me. I'll collect it in a months time.

 

You remove it from sale. You may well in that time of had further enquiries in the next few days.

 

Several days later I phone you back and say, changed me mind mate give me my money back.

 

Now experience has showed you that readvertised cars never get as good a price second time round. Punters think there is something wrong with it when it hasn't sold.

 

So you end up selling it for several hundred £'s less.

 

Should: a; I foregoe my deposit as I should of made sure I wanted the car before putting a deposit down.

or b; You end up out of pocket because of somebody else & his indecision.

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DSR's do not apply to car sales. Can give you a link to the legislation supporting this if required.

 

Please do. In the meantime this seems to suggest otherwise;

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_protection/oft689.pdf

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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nice one SS!!

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Please do. In the meantime this seems to suggest otherwise;

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_protection/oft689.pdf

 

Well firstly read section 1:10 the exact section you link to. It states that what is written isn't law and is only guidance.

 

Then read page 9 here: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf

Paying particular attention exemption to DSR here:

goods or services where the price depends on

fluctuations in the financial markets which cannot be

controlled by the supplier.

 

Then take into account if selling at a distance is not the normal for your business you are exempt. As are one off items. Unless the seller has 2 identical cars with same mileages, colour, spec & price this would be the case.

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Well firstly read section 1:10 the exact section you link to. It states that what is written isn't law and is only guidance.

 

Then read page 9 here: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf

Paying particular attention exemption to DSR here:

goods or services where the price depends on

fluctuations in the financial markets which cannot be

controlled by the supplier.

 

Then take into account if selling at a distance is not the normal for your business you are exempt. As are one off items. Unless the seller has 2 identical cars with same mileages, colour, spec & price this would be the case.

 

But there are exemptions and variations to all such transactions (probably). You clearly specified in post #14, that "DSR's do not apply to car sales". I was merely pointing out that this may not be correct as far as the OP's case is concerned.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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I doubt that the OP's car's price "fluctuates" significantly in the time scale given here. I think you will find that the "goods" you are referring to is probably precious metals such as gold or silver, not cars.

 

Cutting to the chase, I suggest that the OP clarifies his position as far as the DSRs are concerned by taking a copy of any paperwork with him to show a consumer law solicitor. It certainly dosn't help the OP you trying to point score by trawling up some ambiguous exemption. In post 14, you said you could post a "link to the legislation" supporting the fact that "DSRs do not apply to car sales". So far you havn't (not even one for used cars).

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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Unable to read sam? In fact it was your link that proved it. But just for you, it is:

Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000

 

Reg 13(1)(b)

 

Yes it has fluctuated at £300 between December & January in CAP black book.

 

PS. Goods are goods, in what way could they be considered precious metals.

Edited by popeyethesailortam
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Unable to read sam? In fact it was your link that proved it. Yees it has fluctuated at £300 between December & January in CAP black book.

 

PS. Goods are goods, in what way could they be considered precious metals.

 

Able to read perfectly well thanks, and understand consumer law. DSR's do not exclude cars (used or otherwise) and you have not provided any legislation which SPECIFICALLY supports this as you claimed in post #14.

 

The amount of refund paid by the OP would not affect the value of the car. The OP is merely asking for a refund of his deposit within a reasonable time scale. Yes, the seller may argue any losses or costs he has incurred by the cancellation but he would need to show evidence of this (assuming the OP progresses to a court claim). As I have said, the OP should consult a consumer law solicitor for clarification.

 

Exactly what advice have you bought to the party other than attempt to shoot everyone else's down in flames. Makes me suspect that you are a trader yourself.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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Well firstly read section 1:10 the exact section you link to. It states that what is written isn't law and is only guidance.

 

Then read page 9 here: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf

Paying particular attention exemption to DSR here:

goods or services where the price depends on

fluctuations in the financial markets which cannot be

controlled by the supplier.

 

Then take into account if selling at a distance is not the normal for your business you are exempt. As are one off items. Unless the seller has 2 identical cars with same mileages, colour, spec & price this would be the case.

 

Well the 'Paying particular attention exemption to DSR here:

goods or services where the price depends on

fluctuations in the financial markets which cannot be

controlled by the supplier.' is going to apply to EVERY used car so it is going to apply to the OP's case.

 

I have never ever read such a load of codswollop in my life. The financial fluctuations are in finance like the libor rate and the Bank Rate and nothing whatsoever to do with the cost of goods.

 

Popeyethesailortam, you are not to make any further posts in this thread, if you do you will be put on moderation where all your post will have to be approved before they appear on the forum.

 

Thread cleaned up again.

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Quite how you can call what I posted as codswallop is beyond me conniff.

 

Firstly I provided proof including the exact section of the DSR regulations defining it.

 

Secondly, you contradict yourself in post #22. You quote me as posting from DSR regs.:

goods or services where the price depends on

fluctuations in the financial markets which cannot be

controlled by the supplier.

 

But go on to say that goods aren't controlled by financial markets???

 

The bank rate is what the bank of England sets as its level in lending to domestic banks eg santander etc. Libor is what the banks themselves set as the interest when lending between themselves. It has nothing to do with consumers.

 

I am as entitled to an opinion on this forum as any other user. As a moderator you should be above deleting posts which contradict what you would like to believe. Or ones that member sailor sam wants removed as they cotradict him.

Edited by popeyethesailortam
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Can I just point out a couple of things:

 

Firstly,

I did not ask for any of your posts to be removed.

 

What I did ask is why MY posts had been removed.

 

You say;

"I am as entitled to an opinion on this forum as any other user".

 

The problem was that you were not just expressing an opinion,

you were attempting to shoot down in flames everyone else'es contribution WITHOUT offering the OP any advice what-so-ever.

 

You specifically stated that car sales are not subject to DSRs which is nonsense.

Cars (used or otherwise) are not specifically excluded from DSRs.

 

See here; http://www.out-law.com/en/topics/tmt--sourcing/e-commerce/the-uks-distance-selling-regulations/

 

It is true that certain goods affected by fluctuations in "financial markets" would not be subject to DSRs.

But that dosn't necessarily apply to cars.

 

In any event,

the OP had only paid a deposit thus meaning that the sale had not been completed.

I am not for one minute saying that the seller is not entitled to retain some of the deposit to cover his losses,

but those losses should be proportionate and reasonable and the seller should be expected to justify them.

 

Your biggest problem is the fact that I cannot recall you offering the OP any advice what-so-ever.

Not even that he should seek face to face legal advice.

 

You seem to simply maintain your position as pro-car trader and offer no support for the consumer at all.

 

Sorry,

I don't think this is what this site is all about.

 

If you come here simply to defend car traders rather than offer constructed advice,

then I am not sure what contribution you make to the forum.

 

BTW, that's just my opinion.

Edited by sailor sam

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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The exceptions to the DSRs are listed here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2334/regulation/13/made

 

The key point of this discussion seems to be the following exception:

(b)for the supply of goods or services the price of which is dependent on fluctuations in the financial market which cannot be controlled by the supplier;

 

I can't find any definition of 'financial market' in the Regulations and my legal database does not have any cases explaining the meaning of this.

 

To me, financial markets involve the trading of money and financial instruments like shares, forex and bonds. I think 'financial markets' includes trading in commodity derivatives where there is no actual delivery (e.g. buying a right to acquire coal through the London Metals Exchange) but would not cover physical delivery (e.g. buying a tonne of coal to be delivered in Portsmouth).

 

I don't think this would cover used cars. Used cars are a market and there are price fluctations, but I would say it is a 'goods market' not a 'financial market'. Hence I think there is no exception here and thus the DSRs probably apply to distance sales by motor traders.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

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Exactly steampowered. I was also thinking of stuff like gold, silver and other similar materials. Popeye claimed earlier in the thread that he could post a link to legislation which specifically excluded car sales. I invited him to post such a link but so far, he hasn't done so.

 

He has simply attempted to turn the thread into a pathetic point scoring match which serves no assistance to the OP at all.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

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