Distance Selling Regs and Cars *** Discussion Thread ***

[Conniff]

Exactly,cars are goods and their price is fixed by those who want to sell them, they do not fluctuate without control.

 

Popeye states 'I know the law' well if that's the case why aren't you a lawyer instead of a salesman in the profession that is the bottom of the pile.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Conniff
correct a type

[j66]

When is the contract for buying a car concluded? and how many car dealers have a set scheme in place specifically for selling cars by no face to face contact means?

[Conniff]

The contract would be concluded when the goods have passed into the buyers hands.

 

I would say every single one of them, car sales are so money grabbing, none of them will turn down a sale just because the buyer isn't there.

[j66]

Would that be when the buyer collects the car?, or when the car dealers employee/representative delivers it? Either way it's face to face contact, so how can the DSR still apply?

 

The DSR like SOGA is geared towards goods that can be purchased and delivered quite easily and doesn't translate too well into car sales.

[seamus22]

Or 2 days after the OP agreed to buy the car dealer could of sold it to someone with money not dreams.

if I had known the 500pound deposit was not refundable,i would not have put down that much, also it was to hold the car the car was not bought until I had seen and test driven it and the salesman agreed to that, and als there were three owners on the car which is normally ok but when two of them had been within the last 11 months you have gotta ask why. which I did but the reply I received when I thought about it, I had my doubts about the car and I was not prepared to take the chance, anyway the car is now sold for more than the price I would have paid,

[popeyethesailortam]

if I had known the 500pound deposit was not refundable,i would not have put down that much, also it was to hold the car the car was not bought until I had seen and test driven it and the salesman agreed to that, and als there were three owners on the car which is normally ok but when two of them had been within the last 11 months you have gotta ask why. which I did but the reply I received when I thought about it, I had my doubts about the car and I was not prepared to take the chance, anyway the car is now sold for more than the price I would have paid,

 

Oh come on seamus. Anyone with an ounce of sense would realise a deposit is an agreement to buy. It might be refundable if it wasn't as described but not just because you changed your mind.

 

How do you know the car is sold? It is still showing as available on the site. Also how do you know what it physically sold for?

[oddjobbob]

Seamus, first of all you said this:

 

 

'I rang this morning to cancel as circumstances have changed' which kind of implies you'd lost your job or something major had happened.

 

 

And then you say this:

'and als there were three owners on the car which is normally ok but when two of them had been within the last 11 months you have gotta ask why. which I did but the reply I received when I thought about it, I had my doubts about the car and I was not prepared to take the chance'

 

 

Which kind of implies buyer's remorse.

 

 

As you've found out, buyers remorse costs money.

 

 

 

 

sorry mate. it's your own fault, can't say I blame the dealer at all now.

[heliosuk]

Seamus resides in Eire whose official currency is the Euro therefore his intention to buy would be subject to financial market fluctuations on the assumption he paid from an Eire bank account in Euros converted to pounds.

 

Looking forward to the ensuing debate but please make sure this thread is a debate and does not detract from the OPS original one asking for advice.

 

One thing to note everyone...a lot of what we think is UK and Ireland wide legislation actually isn't. Northern Ireland consumer law, like Scotland can be very different.

 

Because this case is drafted from Eire you can disregard any direct UK legislation as you have to determine where, if any, the contract is concluded.

 

Let's remember that a contract is exchanged once money has changed hands in English consumer law.

[popeyethesailortam]

Lol well spotted on that one helios!

[Mike_hawk]

Seamus resides in Eire whose official currency is the Euro therefore his intention to buy would be subject to financial market fluctuations on the assumption he paid from an Eire bank account in Euros converted to pounds.

 

Looking forward to the ensuing debate but please make sure this thread is a debate and does not detract from the OPS original one asking for advice.

 

One thing to note everyone...a lot of what we think is UK and Ireland wide legislation actually isn't. Northern Ireland consumer law, like Scotland can be very different.

 

Because this case is drafted from Eire you can disregard any direct UK legislation as you have to determine where, if any, the contract is concluded.

 

Let's remember that a contract is exchanged once money has changed hands in English consumer law.

 

Thats a bit deep for this time of night Helios, engaging article 23....... in this instance it would seem extraordinary for the parties to draw up an agreement suggesting jurisdiction should be contemplated outside the member states .

 

I could be way off the mark, but this seems to be your suggestion

[heliosuk]

Thats a bit deep for this time of night Helios, engaging article 23....... in this instance it would seem extraordinary for the parties to draw up an agreement suggesting jurisdiction should be contemplated outside the member states .

 

I could be way off the mark, but this seems to be your suggestion

 

I wouldn't really know about article 23 unless I researched it and for the 500 quid in question it seems a lot of grief but it does indeed raise questions about our legal system.

 

The problem as I see it is everyone is commenting based on what would happen here under English consumer law which is interesting in it's own right. However, it is English and here we have what is technically an overseas buyer. So as far as the OP's post is concerned which triggered the debate Pop quite rightly raised is that would DSR apply for an overseas buyer.

 

I suppose it all rests on whether the bank transfer was from a UK or Eire bank account.

 

It's interesting to note that some months ago we had a case of a member buying wheels in England from Northern Ireland. On the face of one would have thought they had a case but apparently consumer law is different to that in England where the goods were sold from.

 

It could get interesting in the future as well especially if Scotland vote for independence....

[steampowered]

Steampowered:

With all respect,you really need to rethink that interpretation. Buying commodities on a stock or metal exchange or share dealing would be considered trader to trader dealing. Therefore would have nothing to do with DSR's as trade dealing as you know is specifically excluded from the DSR legislation.

 

I don't think this is necessarily true. Average consumers are perfectly entitled to buy financial instruments. There is a whole set of financial regulatory rules designed to protect consumers who are trading in stocks/shares/bonds. This would apply to everyone who has a SIPP or a stocks-and-shares ISA which they manage themselves.

 

My reading of the legislation is that this is aimed at consumers who want to deal in financial instruments. A good example would be someone who wants to send money to Spain - this exception stops them from buying several thousand euros and then reversing the transaction if the markets change. Similarly it would stop someone from buying a bunch of Tesco shares for their pension and then reversing the transaction if there is a decline in the stock market.

 

To me, the natural reading of 'financial market' means dealing in money not dealing in fixed assets. Newspapers would use this to describe the London Stock Exchange but not to describe used cars. Describing used cars as a 'financial market' sounds very artificial to me. If the legislature wanted to have a general exception for price fluctuations they would have referred just to 'market' and they would not have specifically limited it to 'financial market'.

 

I appreciate there is no concrete proof either way. We will have to agree to disagree on this.

 

Regarding are cars a market with price fluctuations. Of course they are. Entire industries have grown to serve this with up to date pricing. The two biggest are Eurotax Glass & CAP.

Now in this case in question. The vehicle has dropped in CAP by £300 from last month. The vehicle is only worth 'x' price when sold. The seller will likely have an overstock policy where vehicles not sold in eg 60 days are returned to the trade. At which point it will have devalued.

Think of it logically. A 4x4 in the current climate will achieve a better price than it would in the height of summer. Equally a convertible rear wheel drive sports car will sell at a much lower price today than it would in a beautiful sunny day in mid June.

Agree entirely with all of this. But there is no general exception for price fluctuations in the legislation. Price fluctuations only become relevant if used cars are a 'financial market'.

 

Now add all the above information I have provided along with the facts that

i.businesses that do not normally sell within the scope of DSR's

ii. Items that are bespoke or are one off items (which a used car almost certainly is)

are exempt from DSR regulations. I think you will find that I am correct in saying DSR's do not apply to used car sales.

The exception you are referring to reads as follows:

for the supply of goods made to the consumer’s specifications or clearly personalised or which by reason of their nature cannot be returned or are liable to deteriorate or expire rapidly;

 

I don't see how this would refer to used cars. It is not enough for the car to be a 'one off' item.