pcn31 for 'entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited'

[barlotti komet]

Hi everyone ,new member here .

 

I received a pcn 31 for 'entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited' .

 

This box junction a situated at the junction of Chadwell Heath Lane and the High Road A118 (please see google maps to view the junction)

 

.I was travelling in the Ilford to Romford direction .

 

I have applied to view the CCTV footage of the alledged contravention in full to go over a few points .

 

I entered the box in the lane to travel to Romford ,

the traffic stopped in front of me ,

very slow moving traffic .

the way this trafiic flow works (or not !!) at peak times is,

 

as a space becomes clear ahead of the box juction ,

vehicles turn left out of Chadwell Heath Lane, head towards Romford and take up the 'space' making the Ilford to Romford flow completely stop ,

 

I moved foreward ,I stopped for a short period as I couldn't move foreward,

but I moved over and I then exited via the clear (at all times during this time) right turn lane ,

which is alongside the straight ahead lane , so my 'exit route' was clear all of the time .

 

I entered the box , and left via a clear at all times exit lane ,thus not 'prohibited' as the alledged contravention states , am I right?,

 

is there a penalty for amount of time you spend in a box when your exit route is clear?

 

can they fine me for what they think I might do, or is there no contravention as I exited via a clear route

 

The 'still' photo sent to me shows the right hand (my exit) lane next to me to as clear too .

 

I was reading a Patas case no. MV0071NE02 Sheikh V's L.B. of Newham which shows a very similar situation to mine

where he was stopped in a lane by traffic but the lane along side of him was clear with traffic passing through ,

and although Mr. Sheikh didn't use the clear route and stayed where he was , the appeal was upheld .

 

Also I'm not clear on the wording on the notice regarding the 14-28 day period and whether it is correct or not

 

.I'll type the actual wording for you to me advise on if you will:-

 

The Penalty Charge of £130 is now payable and must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date this Notice was served .

 

If it is paid before the end of 14 days beginning with the date this Notice was served, the amount payable is reduced to £65 .

 

Payment should be made to L.B.of Redbridge (see below for further details) .

OR ,if you believe you have good reason not to pay the penalty charge

,you should right to us explaining why (see Representations section overleaf).

 

Although there are specific legal grounds for making representations ,

we will consider excercising our discretion and may cancel the Penalty Charge Notice if there are suitable mitigating circumstances

(i.e. if we believe that there is a good enought reason).

 

Please make sure the Penalty Charge Notice number is written on all correspondence.

If the penalty charge is not paid or challenged before the end of the 28 day period ,

an increased charge of £195 may be payable .

 

We may then send you a Charge Certificate seeking payment of this increased amount .

 

I'm not a legal bod and from what I have read there seems to be different wordings used by different authorities

Edited December 15, 2013 by barlotti komet
typing error

[dx100uk]

own thread created

 

dx

[green_and_mean]

Your post is a bit long winded but unless turning right, you cannot enter a yellow box and then stop your vehicle due to the presence of a stationary vehicle, that is the offence.

 

PCN wording is here:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/4/enacted

 

Key cases at PATAS are here:

 

http://keycases.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/docs/Gillingham%20v%20Newham;%20Essoo%20v%20Enfield;%20Khan%20v%20TfL.doc

 

Box junction regulatains are here:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/schedule/19/made

 

 

Happy reading!

[sailor sam]

Sorry but i'm not following this bit;

 

"I moved foreward ,I stopped for a short period as I couldn't move foreward,

but I moved over and I then exited via the clear (at all times during this time) right turn lane ,

which is alongside the straight ahead lane , so my 'exit route' was clear all of the time" .

 

What traffic caused you to stop "for a short period" and where did it come from? When you entered the box, was there any traffic immediately in front of you?

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[barlotti komet]

Hi Sailor Sam & green_and-mean , thanks for the replies .

 

@Sailor Sam ., there is a single lane approaching the box ,

the box only covers the route I was heading in (a half box?)

as you exit the box the road splits into 2 lanes ,

a straight ahead on the left and a right turn

(google maps will show it in full from the road names I gave in my post ,but I can't add a link) .

 

From memory (I need to see the CCTV footage to refresh me and see all of the events in full)

 

I moved straight ahead ,

 

there was no traffic immediately in front of me as I entered , t

he traffic stopped in the left / straight ahead lane ,

 

I stopped and move over to the clear right turn lane ,

 

so my eventual and actual exit was clear all of the time ,

bearing in mind that the box junction is not divided between the straight ahead

and right turn until you exit it ,

 

the straight ahead and right turn arrows printed immediately after the yellow markings .

 

I wasn't forced to stop as there was a clear exit lane available

[barlotti komet]

Interesting to read about the findings of Sheikh V's Newham .

 

Would the wording of the pcn be correct in my case? .I read 2 comparisons on here earlier and I can't work out if mine is worded correctly or not?

Edited December 15, 2013 by barlotti komet

[sailor sam]

Hmm. IMHO the road prior to the junction is wide enough for you to manoeuvre

into the straight ahead lane without getting stuck behind traffic intending to turn right.

 

Further more the box junction is quite a way back from the traffic lights anyway

so I can't see how traffic turning right could signifitantly impede traffic carrying straight on

unless it was qued back into the box itself.

 

If there was any traffic stationary in the box and it did prevent you from exiting,

then it must of been encroaching into your lane.

 

Had that been the case, your exit route was not clear.

 

But that is just my opinion based on the street view images so I may not be interpreting you circumstances correctly.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[barlotti komet]

I think you might be viewing the juction from the opposite way .

 

The traffic lights are in the opposite direction to my route

,the box is at the junction of Chadwell Heath Lane and the High Road .

 

I was travelling away from the lights towards Romford.

 

The exit route I took was the the right turn (marked in the road immediately after the end of the box junction) .

 

This was clear all of the time - no stationary traffic (as I remember - I need to see the CCTV footage as I can't be sure of the specific events as I entered the box)

 

The 'still' photo even shows no traffic in the right turn lane which was my actual exit route .

 

Is it deemed an offence if you stop in a box when there is a clear exit that you take? .

 

From what I have read the offence occurs if you enter the box with no clear exit at that time and you have to stop ?

Edited December 15, 2013 by barlotti komet

[green_and_mean]

I wasn't forced to stop as there was a clear exit lane available

 

 

Why did you stop then?

[barlotti komet]

I moved foreward , realised there was a clear exit to my right (the right turn lane) stopped ,

and backed up then moved over to the right turn lane

 

In the key Patas cases there is the case of Mr Gillingham where the findings contain this :-

 

" That Mr Gillingham might have made an alternative choice of exit is irrelevant, since he did not take it.

The law must judge the actual facts of the case: i.e. what the driver did – not what he might have done. "

Does this mean if he had taken the alternative clear exit , it would have been relevant to the appeal?

 

I took a clear exit - that's what I did, not what I might have done - relevant?

[green_and_mean]

If you stopped for over 5 secs then you are unlikely to win at PATAS if you simply paused before changing lanes then you may have a case, we have not seen the cctv so cannot make a judgement based just on your version of events.

[barlotti komet]

Hi , thanks for the info. I need to see the CCTV footage in full to get the facts / times etc .I have requested an appointment to view it . I'll update once I've seen it .Thanks for your help .I'll get back to you soon.

 

BTW , any views on the wording of the PCN ?

[sailor sam]

Hi , thanks for the info. I need to see the CCTV footage in full to get the facts / times etc .I have requested an appointment to view it . I'll update once I've seen it .Thanks for your help .I'll get back to you soon.

 

BTW , any views on the wording of the PCN ?

 

Ere, no... not without seeing it.

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[barlotti komet]

Hi Sailor Sam , I did type out the exact wording of the pcn in my first post , here it is again:-

 

The Penalty Charge of £130 is now payable and must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date this Notice was served .

 

If it is paid before the end of 14 days beginning with the date this Notice was served, the amount payable is reduced to £65 .

 

Payment should be made to L.B.of Redbridge (see below for further details) .

OR ,if you believe you have good reason not to pay the penalty charge

,you should right to us explaining why (see Representations section overleaf).

 

Although there are specific legal grounds for making representations ,

we will consider excercising our discretion and may cancel the Penalty Charge Notice if there are suitable mitigating circumstances

(i.e. if we believe that there is a good enought reason).

 

Please make sure the Penalty Charge Notice number is written on all correspondence.

If the penalty charge is not paid or challenged before the end of the 28 day period ,

an increased charge of £195 may be payable .

 

We may then send you a Charge Certificate seeking payment of this increased amount .

 

this is typed word for word as printed on the pcn

[sailor sam]

G&M is the expert when it comes to the actual PCN but I think he will want to see the actual scan of it. Can you scan it, obscure any personal info (VRM and your address details etc) and then post it up on here.

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[barlotti komet]

Hi SS , here is the scan

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]48233[/ATTACH]

Edited December 16, 2013 by barlotti komet

[dx100uk]

**you can post up images/letters by this method immediately..you don't need 10 posts**

.

set your default scan page size to A4 less than 300DPI [150 will do]

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets - as a picture[jpg] file

don't forget you can use a mobile phone or a digital camera too!!

'

BUT......

ENSURE: remove all pers info inc. barcodes etc

but leave all monetary figures and dates.

.

************************* ************************* *******

{DO NOT USE A BIRO OR PEN OR USE SEE THRU TAPE OR LABELS]

************************* ************************* ***********

.

DO IT IN MSPAINT.EXE or any photo editing program

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites ...

http://freejpgtopdf.com/

..

if you have multiple scans/pics

put them in a word doc FIRST and convert that to PDF

or http://www.freepdfconvert.com/

or

use www.pdfmerge.com

 

convert existing PC files to PDF [office has an installable print to PDF option]

..

it would be better to upload a multipage pdf if

you have many images too rather than many single pdfs

.

or if you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

or use word and save as pdf

try and logically name your file so people know what it is.

though dont use full bank names or CAG in the title

i'e Default notice DD-mm-yyyy TSB

.

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

...

YOU DONT have to put a link to the attachment in the msg box..just upload it ..job done

.

dx

[barlotti komet]

I did post up a scan but it looked too small so I tried to edit it - I'll go back to it soon

[dx100uk]

pdf it as per the instructions

 

dx

[barlotti komet]

Here it is :-

[sailor sam]

Is that you emerging from the side road or are you the car directly stopped across the path of the vehicle emerging from the side road?

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[green_and_mean]

There are at least 2 box junctions in the high road so I would appeal on both vague location and no contravention occured as in the Sheikh vs Newham case.

[barlotti komet]

Is that you emerging from the side road or are you the car directly stopped across the path of the vehicle emerging from the side road?

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Hi SS , that is me in the box ,you can see the right turn lane next to me , that is the lane I used to exit the box, the van has just entered the box from the side road. This is the problem with the box , the traffic in the side road (where the van is ) enters the high road , and takes up any available spaces , thus preventing the high road traffic from moving foreward. After the shot was taken I moved over to the right turn lane and exited , a full video will show the events , a still photo doesn't show much at all.

[barlotti komet]

There are at least 2 box junctions in the high road so I would appeal on both vague location and no contravention occured as in the Sheikh vs Newham case.

Thanks G&M , I thought the Sheikh V's Newham might work , although the adjudicators in the Patas rulings you linked me to don't neccecarily agree with the appeal being upheld but I will use it anyway .I also thought about the 'Gillingham' case where the adjudicators said he had stopped and although there was a clear exit , Mr G didn't take it ,so it (the clear exit) is irrelevent . My point is if he had taken the exit (as I did in my case) would it have been relevent to the appeal that he lost? . Has anybody tried the 'vague location ' angle?

Did you get a chance to read the pcn scan I posted up?

Edited December 17, 2013 by barlotti komet

[green_and_mean]

Thanks G&M , I thought the Sheikh V's Newham might work , although the ajudicators in the Patas rulings you linked me to don't neccecarily agree with the appeal being upheld but I will use it anyway .I also thought about the 'Gillingham' case where the ajudicators said he had stopped and although there was a clear exit , Mr G didn't take it ,so it (the clear exit) is irrelevent . My point is if he had taken the exit (as I did in my case) would it have been relevent to the appeal that he lost? . Has anybody tried the 'vague location ' angle?

Did you get a chance to read the pcn scan I posted up?

 

There have been numerous wins on the 'vague locus' argument, it is after all meant to be a box 'junction'