Non response by Bailiffs to overpayment

[mystery57]

Hi - wonder if anyone can give some guidance for me to pass on.

 

My friend has been paying £120 per month online to a Bailiff who had an Order for non payment of Council Tax passed to them. Their visits had been going on for a couple of years.

 

In February 2013 a bailiff revisited, claiming no payments had been made. Proof was given to him and he went away to sort it -- however he charged £160 appx for this visit. He telephoned advising that her previous Council Tax account with them was showing as being in credit in error.

 

After this my friend telephoned the bailiffs several times, asking for a statement of her debt and all payments she had made etc - this action was repeated 4 times and no information was ever forthcoming from them.

 

In October 2013 a bailiff visited again with the intention of taking goods away there and then. My friend by now very distressed phoned myself and I attended. I knew my friend had been making the payments religiously each month, so I asked the Bailiff for 24 hours for me to check and provide proof. He advised he was already charging £205 for that visit and that if he had to come back he would charge a further fee. He also said if the debt was not paid he would remove goods there and then.

 

I paid him nearly £1600 to buy my friend some time which cleared the debt including his charges that day. According to her records excluding the charge levied in February she only owed appx £155 still.

 

The next day I wrote a letter of complaint about his behaviour, the company in general and the fact that appx £1500 had now been overpaid to them, and I provided them with details of the online transaction receipts.

 

Incidentally for this payment and all the online payments surcharges were added because of paying online or by debit card.

 

A letter was received back acknowledging the complaint, and advising it would be dealt with within 10 days, and we would be notified within 14 days.

 

The 14 days has come and gone, and an email asking for urgent attention has now been sent. Along with a request to acknowledge receipt of the email.

 

The silence from the Bailiffs is deafening.

 

What should my friend do next ?

[renegadeimp]

Youve been conned. The bailiffs cant charge whatever they like.

 

We need a breakdown of events so we can see how much has been overpaid.

[mystery57]

I have just emailed them re-iterating the request that we want to see statements and an analysis of all of their charges - I think they have been overcharging her for the last couple of years.

 

Should I also take issue with the local council - they had passed two orders to the bailiffs for non payment. At my instigation 18 months ago my friend visited them and offered a repayment plan, they refused saying it is in the hands of the bailiffs, your proposals are acceptable but payment must go to them. My friend is up todate with current council tax which for the current year has been paid direct to the council.

Edited December 6, 2013 by mystery57

[hallowitch]

First of all establish from the Council how much was owing etc You need to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

.

Next you need to send off for a breakdown of the charges the bailiff applied. Here's an example, use and adapt at will and best sent initially by email backed up by a copy in the post send it to the bailiff firm and the council by e-mail and recorded delivery letter .

.

"From:

My Name

My Address

.

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

.

Ref: Account No(s): 123456/ 891032

.

Dear Sir

.

With reference to the above account(s), Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

.

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

.

This is not a Subject access request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

.

I require this information within 14 days.

.

Yours faithfully

.

Ripped off customer"

 

 

once you receive a reply we will be able to see what has been overcharged

 

 

If they have been in house at any time to levy goods posts up the goods levied and fees charged on the notice of seizure

[mystery57]

Brilliant thanks for that I will help my friend prepare this over the weekend. To my knowledge they did an assessment once before of goods in her property but told her there was nothing of significant value taking.

 

The last bailiff wanted to take a TV and an Xbox which belongs to her eldest son who was at work at the time. Will report back as soon as info to hand.

[hallowitch]

you may want to add F - If a levy fee has been charged on any of the above accounts please include a copy of any notice of seizure at this initial stage I will accept a list of all goods levied for each account

Edited December 6, 2013 by hallowitch

[Coughdrop]

Totally agree with HW's approach. Spot on IMO!

[brassnecked]

Great advice so far, but it may be that you will have to approach the council, and eventually threaten them with small claims action for recovery, as they are jointly and severally liable with and for their agents the bailiffs, when they feel that you are not entitled to a repayment as the bailiffs acted correctly in their muppet like opinion.

[mystery57]

Thanks everyone - been working through her bank statements and other information and its a really confusing nightmare scenario - the Bailiffs have well and truly turned her over I believe. Tomorrow will be contacting the Council with a copy of everything we send to the Bailiff, and pointing out the info kindly provided above.

 

Some of the errors I have just identified, because of their non compliance in providing information when requesting is disturbing.

 

To illustrate briefly

 

Dec 2012 - amount owing was claimed to be £1156.14 (we have this in a threatening letter from Bailiffs - which was incorrectly issued anyway as their Accounts had not applied credits paid to the account)

 

Feb 2013 -- amount now owing according to a payment receipt for £171 paid, was now £1992.59 - and they had just charged £169 fees for the £171 collected (a payment which was not due anyway)

 

November 2013 - Bailiff on receipt advised that £1483.59 cleared the debt including that days charges of £211. (Payments made between Feb 2013 and Nov 2013 being appx £840)

 

I have seen so far 2 receipts for payments made and on NEITHER does it give an analysis or reason for the fee.

 

The one in February 2013 when they should not even have attended just says COSTS £169

 

The one in November 2013 says COSTS £211. I was told verbally in November when I asked him for 24 hours to check my friends paperwork as I didnt believe his figures, that it would cost me another £211 if he had to come back the next day.

 

 

What a disgraceful shambles.

[hallowitch]

what bailiff firm is this ?

 

 

is he certificated to the firm of bailiffs that is enforcing the debt ?

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377382-Certificated-Bailiff-Register-Updated

[mystery57]

Ross and Roberts who I have discovered other references to on this forum

[Coughdrop]

Can I politely suggest you don't send them any of your evidence at the moment. Collect your information from them first using the information in post 4 - one to the council, one to the bailiff company. Analyse what they send you, post up charges and we can help you identify any that should not be there, then hit the council with the evidence they've given you, the evidence from the bailiff companies and your correct version of what should have been charged and what you've actually paid.

 

Your ace up your sleeve is your evidence, so play it carefully would be my advice.

[mystery57]

Good thinking thank you

[brassnecked]

Ah Ross 'n Robbers at it again. Be aware before you contact the council that as R & R are the bailiffs them council may have a Crapita infestation as in council have outsourced revenue office to Capita, who own Ross 'n Robbers so when you contact the council you are actuallly dealing with Crapita.

[mystery57]

Now that is very interesting and I will delve deeper - I know when I first helped her set the arrangement up, I went with her to the Council and spoke with the Head of Finance there and he ultimately made the decision he was happy with the proposals put.

 

If Capita are involved obviously they have an interest in using R&R as they can get more fees - illegally or otherwise -- hmmmmm

 

Watch this space - North Devon is the council

[Coughdrop]

It is illegal for a council to receive kickbacks from enforcement activity.

[mystery57]

If Capita are involved the Council arent and that was not implied in my reply - what was implied from previous is that Capita own R&R -- so profitability incentive is there as a group of companies

 

I would be surprised if such an incentive was encouraged, but I have noted elsewhere comments that the bailiffs visiting are encouraged to put charges onto accounts.

[Coughdrop]

If Capita are involved the Council arent and that was not implied in my reply

 

I'm not sure you can claim that legitimately. You're talking about a Council Tax issue so the council hold vicarious liability with their appointed enforcement agents.

[renegadeimp]

Yea, we can coughdrop. If capita are the back office idiots, then they will say and do anything to force you to communicate with the bailiffs, instead of following rules and taking the debt back if the debtor is vulnerable, or allow payments direct to the council. It's all about them earning more profit by way of fee's, and next year its going to get a whole lot worse.( Thank you cameron).

[Coughdrop]

So you hold true the statement that the council aren't involved in a Council Tax issue because they've outsourced to Capita? Hmm. I don't disagree with your views on Capita, but I think you'd have a hard job convincing me the council aren't ultimately vicariously liable.

[mystery57]

In the context of my friends grievance Im not worried about any agendas within any organisation - I just want her to get the monies she has been wrongfully and overcharged refunded. I just looked at her last ten receipts for paying them online - on each she was charged £1.50 for paying them with her debit card. I know this is not permissable from previous information, so its more info on my list of things.

[Coughdrop]

As mentioned earlier, I think you do your homework first on that front using the information provided, then feed things into the council gently to give them the rope to hang themselves. I don't think it should be too hard. I agree getting into debates about specific organisations is not going to help your friend.

[mystery57]

thank you - and Im really grateful for the support you all are offering - the stress of her dealing with the bailiffs for a while now since the breakup of her marriage has affected her health - the sooner I can finish it for her the better

[mystery57]

Just an update - letters sent as suggested. Still no response from R&R inline with their handling of the initial complaint under their complaints policy - 14 days was last Friday and we have it in writing that was the latest date we would get their response by.

 

Going through more papers, a Form 7 Notice of Seizure and Inventory of Goods has turned up from last year - on it a few minor items are listed, no values afforded. In the Accounting Box, the total debt is shown and Bailiff costs inc VAT of £135, which are then added to the debt.

 

What is disconcerting is that repayment arrangements as agreed with the Council and instructed by them to the Bailiff was for the entire original debt which comprised 2 or 3 rateable years. However this Form 7 is in respect of only ONE of the debts not the combined one. It is hardly surprising my friend has got in a mess when she has paperwork like this given to her.

 

Comments appreciated please on (a) the charges levied and (b) that the Form 7 has cited only half of the amount owing

[hallowitch]

Going through more papers, a Form 7 Notice of seizure and Inventory of Goods has turned up from last year - on it a few minor items are listed, no values afforded. In the Accounting Box, the total debt is shown and bailiff costs inc VAT of £135, which are then added to the debt.

 

 

what goods are written exactly as the bailiff wrote them

 

 

what's the outstanding balance for council tax as written on the form 7