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lose your home lose your kids

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Hope it all works out in the end for you and can move on and make the best of it.

In a few months or years you never know what might happen and may be even happy there, even if not ideal.

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Thank you for given us an update and sorry it didn't go to well with the solicitor.


As the solicitor has suggested I would now follow the councils complaints procedure and get a letter in writing about the maladministration and also speak to your councillor about this.


If you require any further help or advice you know where CAG is just pop back and ask.

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I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

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thankyou again all

I believe it will be an introductory tenancy desp , 10 years counts for nothing. I believe we then get the new 5yr fixed term tenancy as long as we follow the rules!

despondence does not equate to giving up ! :)

I am going to see a different solicitor tomorrow ,it may well be wasted effort , just to be told the same thing for the 3rd time , but I have to try . I find it really hard that they cannot look at the decision/s that has caused our potential loss of this house.(the original decision, the claims of arrears etc) they are looking only at the here and now.

we feel incredibly anxious though because its been 7 working days since the council said they will contact us with the offer of the flat with the garden . now Monday will be a visit to the solicitor and if that's negative then a quick call to the council to see if their offer still stands..


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as an aside stu , can I tell stories on here ?...

I am not really a fan of complaining, I have never found it to be that effective ! I do believe the last time I officially complained about something was with the very same council I am dealing with now. We used to have to visit the town hall quite often when my daughter was a toddler.



In the foyer they had a child's play table, one of those simple easy clean ones with coloured bendy wires with shapes you move along .just that ,nothing else. As my daughter was playing I joined her at the table only to notice how dirty it was ! small bits of food matter all over its surface and spattered with a variety of drink blobs I guess. one of the blobs even appeared to have mould growing over it !



I stopped my daughter playing on it and mentioned to the reception desk that it really needed a clean .A couple of days passed and we were in the same place again , daughter toddles over to the table..as do I .. its still the same!!, so I take a pic and approach the reception again ...



Well this process went on about 5 times over 2 weeks (the mould grew) , so I had 4 pics too which showed it was exactly the same grime.. on the last request to reception I was quite loud and took objection to them stating it was cleaned every night! This got me an immediate sit down with a "services" manager or something who recorded my issue and said it would be resolved. I said give me a cloth and I would do it . please don't worry sir he replies. excellent I thought someone is going to clean the table . long winded , stressful , but hey we are getting somewhere.



I received an email a few days later apologizing for my experience in the foyer or something and he had been in contact with the foyer cleaning manager who assured him it was cleaned but staff are on a tight schedule and blah blah blah ..



I visited the town hall the following day and incredibly it still had not been cleaned, that's over 2 weeks to my knowledge ! I sent the manager an email saying it was disgusting that they are not cleaning this table, childrens health bugs etc . I can only assume they then got fed up with me. on a visit a few days later I noticed there was no playtable at all . no play equipment at all . instead of cleaning it ,they had removed it . and I do believe till this day there is no play equipment in our council foyer .



not quite the effect I was after.. :roll:


Edited by citizenB
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  • 1 month later...

Hello again all

Hope everybodys year is going well so far !


An update to our situation and a Question or 2 , (if anyone has the knowledge to answer)


Since being hear last , I continued searching for an "astute" lawyer and thanks to daniellas suggestion I did find a lawyer who is now representing us (in a way! , I have to stand up in court :sad: ) The lawful point is legitimate expectation . We have been advised that at the moment the chances are 50/50.


Last week i submitted a SAR request to the council to try to find out if there is any information in there that would support our case. Alas, this can take up to 42 days for us to receive this and as of yesterday the council contacted us about the offer of the 2nd flat with garden.


They are now pushing for us to view obviously but we are away at the moment and need more time to receive the SAR data so we can see if there is any more cement to our case within .


This obviously brings us to the point of trying to make a decision again whether to accept flat or fight for our home here .

so my questions to you kind folk are from trying to evaluate any positives/negatives from what is on offer.



One of their options is for us to go into the private rental market where we would get help with the deposit etc but I can see there is a wee issue with the stated LHA rates , our LHA rate is £766.52 pm but the average rent rate is £900.



We cannot see how we can pay the £134 difference at the moment . Can they put us in this position legally? all I can see is future homelessness again through not being able to pay the private landlord the shortfall.??!



The other option is obviously to accept the flat on offer but from my research we will be offered a 5yr flexi tenancy after a years introductory tenancy. This time scale means that when the council come to evaluate us again , our daughter will be 16. I believe the council will not have a duty to house us then anyway as we have no dependants , so will my wife and I be out on the street ?


thankyou for your time if anyone reads this ..


I have found a tag thing here is mine....


"The right to housing is not about a roof anywhere, at any cost, without any social ties. It is not about reshuffling people according to a snapshot of the number of bedrooms at a given night.


It is about enabling environments for people to maintain their family and community bonds, their local schools, work places and health services allowing them to exercise all other rights, like education, work, food or health."

remarks by UN Special Rapporteur on adequate housing,


Rachel Rolnik


Edited by citizenB
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A Subject Access request should take 40 calendar days.


Have you responded to the Council and advised when you will be in a position to view the 2nd property ?


I am sure those people who have subscribed to your thread will look in as soon as they have finished their day jobs :)

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Hi cB ,

no contact yet , we are hiding behind the answerphone ! my wife has to go to a funeral Friday and will not be back for a few days so I shall maybe contact them Friday and say maybe view next week. I know from the last time that we viewed a property that as soon as we contact them, the pressure will be upon us. they wanted us to sign there and then last time..

thanks for responding , I shall be patient ..

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  • 3 weeks later...

I would strongly advise you to never go for private rental if there is even a vague possibility you can get a two bed council property. There are some good private rental landlords around, but if you hunt around on other forums.., u'll find they are rare. Then there is the difficulty finding a private LL who will accept benefit recipients as tenants, and paying the extra rent LHA won't pay.


If you are going to move anyway.., far far better to go for an LA property.

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Thankyou for replying deannatrois

Out of choice , we don't want a private rental . we want to stay in our council home of nearly 11 years.

we are just trying now to decide what is best to do , what appears to be on offer is



option 1 .. a 2 bed flat with the LA . No lifetime tenancy just a "flexible" one .exposed to the whim of unknown decision makers. up to 5years only ... after this I guess my wife and I are on the street anyway. ... (no dependants)



option 2 ... get forced into private accommodation (through the council relinquishing their duty) No lifetime tenancy. exposed to the whim of unknown wealthy landlord.



If we fight our (weak) Human rights case .. we do stand a chance to keep our home and be awarded a proper (lifetime) tenancy.



really don't know what to do , going to go pop soon !

The clock is back to ticking now as we have to attend a viewing of the offered flat on Tuesday next week ...

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I think your arguement needs to be that the Council have not adhered to the Law on Housing Eligibility and not so much about your Human Rights. There are Rules and Regulations that apply to how, when and what housing is given and your Council have definitly not adhered to those rules, this bit alone appears to me to point out that they have not done what they are supposed to do :-


The main homelessness duty

11. Under the legislation, certain categories of household, such as families with children and households that include someone who is vulnerable, for example because of pregnancy, old age, or physical or mental disability, have a priority need for accommodation.

Housing authorities must ensure that suitable accommodation is available for people who have priority need, if they are eligible for assistance and unintentionally homeless

(certain categories of persons from abroad are ineligible.) This is known as the main homelessness duty. The housing authority can provide accommodation in their own stock

or arrange for it to be provided by another landlord, for example, a housing association or a landlord in the private rented sector.

12. If settled accommodation is not immediately available, accommodation must be made available in the short term until the applicant can find a settled home, or until some other

circumstance brings the duty to an end, for example, where the household voluntarily leaves the temporary accommodation provided by the housing authority. A settled home

to bring the homelessness duty to an end could include the offer of a suitable secure or introductory tenancy in a local authority’s housing stock (or nomination for a housing

association assured tenancy) allocated under Part 6 of the 1996 Act or the offer of a suitable tenancy from a private landlord made by arrangement with the local authority.13.

Under the Homelessness (Suitability of Accommodation) (England) Order 2003, housing authorities can no longer discharge a homelessness duty to secure suitable

accommodation by placing families with children, and households that include a pregnant woman, in Bed & Breakfast accommodation for longer than six weeks – and then only if more suitable accommodation is not available.

Much more about these Rules and Regulations can be found here :: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/7841/152056.pdf


I feel this route would be much more successful than Human Rights, many Councils do not adhere to Parking and Road Marking Regulations never mind Housing Regulations because the majority of the Council Staff do not know the Regulations as they usually only get basic training and/or are only given salient points to work on.

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Maybe I'm a bit harsh, but they're not making you homeless, you are.

They've offered you an alternative accomodation which is more suitable for the size of your family.

I know you like your current home, but it doesn't belong to you.

In a few years time your daughter will probably move out and then what?

You want to keep a 3 bedroom for a couple?

With the housing shortage we have atm you should have expected it.

After all you don't own the house and paying the bedroom tax is no excuse.

Don't forget that you pay peanuts for your council house and they need to house many, many, many, (did I say 'many'?) other families.

Sorry to be brutal, but that's the reality of your situation.

Imagine you 10 years ago with 3 kids unable to get a 3 bedroom house because a couple with 1 child didn't want to move.

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depends on your ideological viewpoint I guess King , .

I or my family did not cause this apparent housing shortage. we did not create these "conditions of austerity" nor did we invent the "moral obligations of the socially housed class"

I personally feel great moral obligation towards many human factors including the issue of housing millions but I also have a duty to protect my own family too. To some , yes this is a House , and a house that I do not own. but equally this is our Home , it is my familys home. same classification as someone who borrows a house, which becomes a home, off of a bank for 35 years.



The council housed us nearly 11 years ago , they led us to believe that we could have a secure tenancy here .




The brutality of the initial inference by the council and shelter(presumably to get a quicky move done and dusted ), that we would lose our home and lose our kids !? what ?why .. oh because we have a 70 cubic foot spare room .. lovely.



Brutality is lovely , especially in todays political climate . its good to be brutal with statistical humans huh



imagine if those that purport to rule us , 10 years ago, set about actually creating a sustainable workable societal model instead of selling off housing stock / allowing right to buy / building the bare minimum allowed quota of new social homes.





thank you , although you have opened another massive can of reading material , I understand what you are saying.

there definitely appears to be procedural impropriety in our case although shelter did not think it held any weight , but then again they did not see that the council had created legitimate expectation either !?

I have been reading that link to the regulations for a fair few hours now and try to absorb what I can but it is the same as my research into human rights legislation .. a minefield of double meanings... for this approach to work I would need educated help .. as I guess the shelter bridge is burned , I don't know who else can advise on this level . any ideas ?



does anyone know how the legislation defines "reasonable" as per the quote below ?



(7F)The local housing authority shall not—

(a)make a final offer of accommodation under Part 6 for the purposes of subsection (7); or

(b)approve an offer of an assured shorthold tenancy for the purposes of subsection (7B),

unless they are satisfied that the accommodation is suitable for the applicant and that it is reasonable for him to accept the offer.]



frazzled head ,time for bed




I have found a tag thing here is mine....


"The right to housing is not about a roof anywhere, at any cost, without any social ties. It is not about reshuffling people according to a snapshot of the number of bedrooms at a given night.


It is about enabling environments for people to maintain their family and community bonds, their local schools, work places and health services allowing them to exercise all other rights, like education, work, food or health."

remarks by UN Special Rapporteur on adequate housing,


Rachel Rolnik


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hi .

any one have any ideas on the "reasonable" meaning in context to the above quote please



obviously I have my own idea of what it means but I equally have done enough reading to know, that I know, absolutely nothing.



All hope is pretty much gone anyways , just clutching at straws now ..


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hope still bubbling on ...

I managed to find out the meaning of "reasonable" in context to above quote through reading this..



Supplementary Guidance on the homelessness changes in the Localism Act 2011 and on the Homelessness (Suitability of Accommodation) (England) Order 2012



"The previous requirement (in section 193(7F)) that authorities must be satisfied that it is reasonable for the applicant to accept the offer has been amended so that no factors, other than contractual or other obligations in respect of existing accommodation, are to be taken into account in determining whether it is reasonable to accept the offer."



the need for an explanation of "reasonable" is dealt with here ,by saying that only contractual/other obligations are in force

so no route for us there.



Does anybody know if the localism act and its amendments, supersede/annul the other acts ? ie housing act 1996 etc


I ask this because in essence we are being dealt with as though we have just become tenants. with No history.

we have nearly 11 years of history here



Edited by what is a home
manners !
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Hi what is a home


I can fully appreciate what you are saying about your present property and classing it as your home after so many years which most other people in a way do in social housing would do, but the welfare reform has changed all that with social housing landlords and affected there business plans.


You really need to concentrate on your present situation of possible eviction and as I have said previously that if you refuse the councils offer of the other property and they go for eviction you could be possibly classed as `Intentionally Homeless` as they offered you another property and you refused (if you have actually refused the offer)


If they are offering you that property on an `Introduction Tenancy` have you asked them what exactly this means, how long it is for, when it will be reviewed, if `Introduction Tenancy` goes fine will it be changed to a secure tenancy, etc.


Something else you need to question is why you have been on an `Insecure Tenancy` for XXyrs without the offer of a Secure Tenancy.


I know your have spoken to a solicitor and it didn't go to well but PLEASE PLEASE contact Shelter https://www.shelter.org.uk/

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I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

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Aaaaaargh ! why is this so hard to get correct information .

The pressure is intense and i am feeling incredibly explosive. this is democracy is it.


A confusing faffle of this means that , that means this . we will only answer questions with legal ultimatums! (the council that is)


i am not moaning about the Group here . Desperate daniellas advise of a specific human rights lawyer was spot on !

and rds advice has made me look at another angle



stu ..thankyou for responding,.. the "normal" street solicitors i approached found no case .. as did shelter .. they just say do as the council tell you and then closed our case. funny how they refuse to look at our 11 year history that does influence our case .

The human rights solicitor is representing us and we can fight for a judicial review based on legitimate expectation .. odds on the case are 50/50 . do we dont we ????!! they await our decision..



i fully understand the threat of homelessness and it is breaking me apart.


through trying to be reasonable .. we viewed the flat they are offering on tuesday and now have 5 days to make a decision. i did ask before the visit and at the time about the offered tenancies.. it is introductory for a year then it is a 5 year flexible tenancy. i requested that it be the old lifetime tenancys and told that as it is a new tenancy they cannot do this.


i asked "what happens in 5 years time then when our daughter is not classed as a dependant no more. you will just relinquish your duty to house us anyway in 5 years? my wife and i will be on the street as we have no dependants (in their eyes).

The reply was woooly ! no no that will not happen . i countered with why not .. it is what you are using against us now in our current home , we have a little box room that is causing you to move us. what is the difference between your actions now and your probable actions in 5 years time ? "umm umm err i dont know about that , i am sure it will not happen " yes of course, you are the masters of truth huh

so the carrot of "housing security" is not really a carrot any more, it looks like one and is touted as one, alas it is just a plastic imitation filled with air.

i did call Shelter again yesterday and asked " is there any remit for us to be offered a lifetime tenancy?"

answer .. no ,it is lawful for them to only offer a flexible. they had no answers as to what happens in 5 years either.


the second question i asked was " what happens , if we go for the court route and lose. will my family and i be dragged out onto the street by our ankles? again the answer was a bit wooly but lent towards the social services getting involved (as the council have a duty to report us to them) , so i guess they will nicely and perfectly legally try to drag my daughter away first ! before they send in the court bailiffs to drag us out



the cause and effect of the application of democracy in this way will cause me to lose my own democratic rationale.

although i am very close to that anyways



sorry if my stance offends those who side with the current political ideology

Keep reading the tabloid papers and listening to the ranting twits in parliament.. keep looking down on people, dont look up and protest against those that rule us. it is easier to attack those that you perceive have no power huh .





I have found a tag thing here is mine....

"The right to housing is not about a roof anywhere, at any cost, without any social ties. It is not about reshuffling people according to a snapshot of the number of bedrooms at a given night.

It is about enabling environments for people to maintain their family and community bonds, their local schools, work places and health services allowing them to exercise all other rights, like education, work, food or health."

remarks by UN Special Rapporteur on adequate housing,

Rachel Rolnik


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Hi there,


Sorry I have not been here for a few days.


I do think you should consider going for the judicial review - 50/50 could go either way, but remember it could go your way. I really do think your 11 years should count for something. However, I do not think you would want to do this if it results in their refusal to provide you with any accommodation at all. I think your lawyer needs to put them on the spot about that aspect of it.


I've had a look at some websites for various authorities and it seems that if your daughter continues at school after 16 she should still count as a dependent, although you need to check this with your own LA. That would at least give you further time in the property if you decide to take it.


I'm so sorry there aren't any easy answers.



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All well and good, but stop thinking about you for a second and think that there may be a family of 5 in b&b waiting for suitable accommodation which you are claiming as yours and refuse to vacate, even though you've been offered another place.

In 5 years time, should your daughter leave, you and your wife will be probably rehoused again in a one bedroom property.

I find that reasonable and democratic.

In many eu countries you won't even be able to claim any accommodation at all, let alone occupying one and claim ownership just because you've paid a couple of pound a week in rent for a few years.

If you go for the 50/50 human right case, I put my money on the council, despite their mess with tenancy contracts, they've been quite reasonable and offered you more suitable accommodations.

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Just a second, please.


The issue here is the status of the tenancy.


When wiah moved into this property they were a family of five and have lived there for 10 years.


The older children have left home so there is now the issue of the third bedroom, and as far as I am aware council tenants have been offered the opportunity to pay for 'extra' accommodation if they choose to do so - the "bedroom tax".


Wiah said they would pay the bedroom tax, but it is because they are classed as temporary tenants that they have been asked to move and are being refused the opportunity to pay the bedroom tax.


I personally don't think that is fair in this situation. 10 years is a very long time to live in one place and wiah and family consider it to be their home. If their tenancy contract was not classed as temporary - and they have tried to get it changed - they would be entitled to stay there and pay the bedroom tax, and I have enormous sympathy for the situation they are in.


There may be other families of five in B&Bs, but it is hardly equitable that different rules apply to wiah when others in this situation have the opportunity to pay the bedroom tax and stay put.


And I'm sure they have paid more than "a couple of pound a week in rent for a few years."

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I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

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Why was my last post removed ?

If it was for decrying King12345's supercilious post then it is only fair that his post is also removed because this part of the forum is supposed to be to help people not kick them when they are down !!!!

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What is a Home, do you have your Tenancy Agreement ? If so what exactly does it state as your type of Tenancy ?

When you have this information check out what responsibilities the Council have in relation to that type of Tenancy in the Housing Act 1985.

Here is a link to it :: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/68/contents

Depending on which type of Tenancy the Council should have followed certain regulations so it may be worth checking those, because if you have been a good tenant and are not in arrears then the Council should have been offering you a Full Tenancy at some point and certainly should not be treating you as a completely new tenant, because you have been occupying one of their houses for 10 years ! That cannot just be dismissed !!


ALSO, have a look at this :: http://www.compactlaw.co.uk/free-legal-information/public-housing/introductory-tenancies.html

I am fairly certain this should have applied to you, and as these people appear to know a bit about it they may be worth contacting.

Edited by rds60h
The last section added
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