Sold a car to a trader - mileage issues

[Foo132]

Hi, I'd like some advice please?

 

I bought a car privately some time ago, ran it for about 6 months and then sold it via eBay as my personal circumstances changed.

 

I sold it to a trader.

 

I had a phonecall the other day as it looks like the car has been clocked. I did a hpi check when I bought it and it all came back clear. It had 10 months mot on it when I bought it, plus various service history and receipts.

 

It sounds like the trader has sold it on and his buyer has found out it's been clocked.

 

The trader now wants some money back off me or he's going down the legal route. Can he do this?

[Foo132]

Sorry, also worth mentioning that I bought the car with the mileage I sold it with (plus any mileage I did)

 

I've since looked on the DVLA website and you can see the last MOT (last year), well before I bought it had the lower mileage showing, and then before then, the higher mileage, so you can see the alterations in the mileage were done before I owned the car.

[BankFodder]

I'm afraid that I think that you may well be liable.

How long ago did you sell it? How large was the mileage discrepancy - and how much does the trader want back?

If it all happened very recently then you might even be obliged to take the car and and to refund the money.

If the trader is demanding a partial refund then it would have to be reasonable - and would effectively represent the difference in value between the car that you thought you sold and the car which you actually did sell.

I think that in addition to working out what this difference in value is, you should also find out if the trader has had to accept the car back - and also the price that he got for it - and how that compares with the price that he would have got for it had its correct mileage been known.

 

Of course, who did you get the car from? You should consider getting a refund from them.

 

It is going to be complicated

[Foo132]

Hi thanks for the response. I'll try and answer all your questions below.

 

The mileage discrepancy is large.

I sold the car in October

I believe he is taking the car back and refunding his customer

He hasn't said how much he wants, but by my reckoning the difference in how much I sold him the car, and his much it would be worth had we known the proper mileage would be about £2000.

 

I also bought the car privately but no longer have the details.

Just for info, I'm not a trader but a private seller

[sailor sam]

I'm not sure I would agree with BankFodder here.

 

The OP says he has an HPI check and some documented history to show that (as far as he knew) there was no discrepancy in the mileage. Further more he is not a trader so unless the trader can prove he deliberately miss-described the car, then the SOGA will not apply.

 

What I do find interesting is the fact that the OP sold the car to a trader through Ebay. Can I ask what car it was and how much he sold it for?

[BankFodder]

It is not relevant that you are a private seller.

You could find the previous owner's details from the DVLA

 

If you have to make a full refund then you should be able to negotiate a small reduction for any mileage, further depreciation or damage which it has suffered since you sold it.

On the other hand if it has been improved in any way - such as new parts, service or MOT then you might be liable to pay for those improvements if you have to take the car back.

 

I think that you will be best off hoping that the trader doesn't know his rights and negotiating a partial refund. Best to keep it very friendly and charming

[Foo132]

The mot with the lower mileage was registered with DVLA before I owned the vehicle so, IMO (which isn't much hence asking here) proved that I couldn't have clocked the mileage on the car as it was already done when I bought it.

 

I have been naive and didn't check myself on the website (but didn't realise I could do this). But the hpi was clear and service book etc tallied up - although I do realise now this isn't always proof.

 

I think the guy is an I dependant trader who buys and sells card from his house rather than someone with a forecourt (that's how it appears anyway)

[BankFodder]

I'm not sure I would agree with BankFodder here.

 

The OP says he has an HPI check and some documented history to show that (as far as he knew) there was no discrepancy in the mileage. Further more he is not a trader so unless the trader can prove he deliberately miss-described the car, then the SOGA will not apply.

 

What I do find interesting is the fact that the OP sold the car to a trader through Ebay. Can I ask what car it was and how much he sold it for?

 

 

Sorry but if you sell anything then there are either express terms in the contract - or implied terms - that the item you are selling is as it is presented. If you sell a car which has 100,000 miles on the clock - then if the true mileage is 120,000 miles, you are in breach of your contractual obligations. It is not a matter of fault. The liabilities are strict.

That is what contracts are about.

[sailor sam]

Sorry but if you sell anything then there are either express terms in the contract - or implied terms - that the item you are selling is as it is presented. If you sell a car which has 100,000 miles on the clock - then if the true mileage is 120,000 miles, you are in breach of your contractual obligations. It is not a matter of fault. The liabilities are strict.

That is what contracts are about.

 

I think you will find that when a private individual sells to a trader, things are slightly different. The trader is expected to carry out checks and be experienced to do so. It appears in this case the OP can demonstrate through documented evidence that he didn't knowingly sell the car with inaccurate mileage. Had he of known (or it could be proven he knew) then I would tend to agree, especially had he sold it to another private individual.

 

In my opinion, as it stands there is no legal avenue for the trader to pursue the OP under.

 

Can the OP satisfy my curiosity in telling us what car it is and what price he sold it for?

[Foo132]

Thanks guys, appreciate the advice, going to talk to a solicitor tomorrow too.

 

It was an old people carrier for £3500

[sailor sam]

Thanks guys, appreciate the advice, going to talk to a solicitor tomorrow too.

 

It was an old people carrier for £3500

 

That narrows it down a bit! That's your'e best bet is to get face to face advice but please come back and keep us up-dated.

[dacouc]

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=103129

[Foo132]

Sorry Sam, just always a bit nervous about putting too much Info on an open forum.

 

Thanks Dacouc for the link. He did start telling me I could be prosecuted for fraudulent documents etc so I spoke briefly to the police. They told me it was a civil matter and not something that would go through them.

[BankFodder]

The trader is expected to carry out checks and be experienced to do so.

 

 

Can you provide an authority for this please

[edjama]

It Is Implied On The Link Above You Bought From A Garage, Yet You Now Say You Bought Private. I'd Suggest You Would Need To Prove When You Purchased The Vehicle, Not When You Registered It If You Are Going To Probe The Clocked Mileage Occurred Before You Had It. At Some Pint Somebody Is Going To Contact The Previous Owner To You And Start Taking Who's Had The Vehicle Between. Of You Only Had Car 4-6 Months Hard To Believe You Can't Remember Who You Got It Off

Furthermore, Did You Sell On Ebay,Or as In The Link px

[Foo132]

The HonestJohn link isn't me. It's a similar situation to mine.

 

I bought the car privately off an advert on gumtree, didn't get a receipt but should be able to find the old advert. I sold the car privately via an advert I put on eBay.

[scaniaman]

Sorry, totally confused here. First post says you sold car on fleabay to a trader, but last post says you sold it privately? Please clarify.

Thanx.

[Foo132]

Sorry, totally confused here. First post says you sold car on fleabay to a trader, but last post says you sold it privately? Please clarify.

Thanx.

 

I'm not a trader, I'm a private individual who sold the car via an advert on eBay and a trader bought it

[sailor sam]

Can you provide an authority for this please

 

Not unless I spend time trawling the net (which i've already done).

 

But I am pretty sure that this is the case. Perhaps the OP will be good enough to come back after visiting his solicitor and give us the required info. It will be far quicker and also provide the OP with accurate information on his legal position.

[popeyethesailortam]

Unless the OPs advert stated warranted miles I'd say the purchaser has little comeback.

 

The vehicle may not have been given a haircut deliberately. It could be down to a faulty speedo head being replaced.

 

Unless the purchaser can prove OP set out to deceive I can't see the courts having much sympathy with a trader. Who should of either made checks prior to sale or supplied the standard customer invoice stating odometer miles can differ from actual miles.

 

Quite frankly sounds a micky mouse dealer if he sources stock of ebay.

[edjama]

What Make/Model Please??

You Should Contact Hpi Who'd Have A Record Of Your Search, And Get Proof In Writing. This Will Show You Did Reasonable Checks Before You Took Ownership. Whilst A Civil Matter, If Any Evidence Is Founds Of Who Has Clocked The Car It Could Become Criminal

[Foo132]

I an update for you all. I've had an interesting day.

I've spoken to CAB and adviceguide.org and they both quoted from the documentation they had which was:

 

If you buy a car from a private seller you won't have the same rights as when you buy from a dealer. You will only be able to take action against the seller if 'the vehicle doesn't match the description they gave you, for example, they told you it had only one owner when it had several. The seller will be responsible for giving a false description, even if they believed it to be true.

 

So I presumed this meant mileage etc which would mean the the trader had the ability to claim back from me.

 

But I've just had a conversation with a solicitor and she said that, the motto is buyer beware.

 

He is a dealer, he could have made proper inspections or enquiries at the time and indeed you would expect that to happen.

He did not.

If you did not know about these matters and had no reason to suspect, you can not be liable in any way.

Therefore I can reject the request to refund partially or whole.

 

I can prove I had the HPI check done at the time of purchase and saw MOT certificates and service history, which in her opinion, is enough to prove I had no reason to suspect anything was untoward when I bought the car. He's a dealer and It's his job to know about acts etc.

 

Therefore I can reject the request to refund partially or whole.

[sailor sam]

Pretty much what i've been saying all along then.

[Foo132]

Yup!

 

It would be different if I'd sold to a private buyer. But as a trader he has further responsibilities when buying a car.

[oddjobbob]

Err... not quite.

 

 

When you did your hpi check, part of that check is a mileage check too. They ask you the current mileage and will tell you of any discrepancies, as well as the normal srtuff like being a write off / colour change / finance owed, reg date / number of keepers etc. HPI will have a record of the check you did and whether or not you gave them the current mileage when you bought it.

 

 

Having said that, the same thing should apply to the trade buyer, surely he would have hpi checked it? I know I would have done

 

 

+1 really to what popeye said, he' a right mickey mouse trader if he's buying stock for resale off of ebay.

 

 

I an update for you all. I've had an interesting day.

I've spoken to CAB and adviceguide.org and they both quoted from the documentation they had which was:

 

If you buy a car from a private seller you won't have the same rights as when you buy from a dealer. You will only be able to take action against the seller if 'the vehicle doesn't match the description they gave you, for example, they told you it had only one owner when it had several. The seller will be responsible for giving a false description, even if they believed it to be true.

 

So I presumed this meant mileage etc which would mean the the trader had the ability to claim back from me.

 

But I've just had a conversation with a solicitor and she said that, the motto is buyer beware.

 

He is a dealer, he could have made proper inspections or enquiries at the time and indeed you would expect that to happen.

He did not.

If you did not know about these matters and had no reason to suspect, you can not be liable in any way.

Therefore I can reject the request to refund partially or whole.

 

I can prove I had the HPI check done at the time of purchase and saw MOT certificates and service history, which in her opinion, is enough to prove I had no reason to suspect anything was untoward when I bought the car. He's a dealer and It's his job to know about acts etc.

 

Therefore I can reject the request to refund partially or whole.