UKPC ( Again ! ) **Ticket Cancelled**

[Billy's mate]

Hi all. My son's friend has moved into a private apartment complex where the UKPC are known to be very aggressive. My son displayed a proper and valid visitors permit correctly displayed on his dashboard. When he returned to the car, he found that he had a PCN for parking without a valid permit. Viewing their images online, the only deduction I can make is that he was parked in the wrong allocated space. There are no white line markings or bays, and the images only show a coin sized circular plate on the ground with a number on it. This would obviously be missed by a first time visitor to the complex - especially in inclement weather. We have ignored the ticket, and have now got a Notice to Keeper. I have fired off a letter to them asking for their authority to act on behalf of the landowner etc., following the fantastic advice on here. The original ticket says that the car is ' 2 Tone ' in colour, but the car is one colour only. Would this form part of my defence if / when the case came to Court ?. After all, if the ' Warden ' made a mistake over this, what else has he made a mistake over ?. Thanks for any advice - you truly are a great bunch of people.

[kirkbyinfurnesslad]

First and foremost this won't go to court.

Do a simple appeal to ukpc.

Come back here. Find out what wins at popla and win

[ericsbrother]

If your son parked in someone else's space then they ( the leaseholder/tenant) may claim for any costs they have borne due to the trespass. UKPC cannot claim a loss because it isnt their parking space. It is most likely that UKPC are employed by the managing agents of the complex and as such have no authority from the landowner anyway so dont accept a response that fudges this particular point.

Get as mich info on how the parking is allocated and if you can get his friend to find out whose space it was and ask them to accept an apology and could that be quoted? they will probably wonder what it is all about but be willing to do so when it is all explained as I bet they have had to deal with the other end of this like your son.

[Billy's mate]

If your son parked in someone else's space then they ( the leaseholder/tenant) may claim for any costs they have borne due to the trespass. UKPC cannot claim a loss because it isnt their parking space. It is most likely that UKPC are employed by the managing agents of the complex and as such have no authority from the landowner anyway so dont accept a response that fudges this particular point.

Get as mich info on how the parking is allocated and if you can get his friend to find out whose space it was and ask them to accept an apology and could that be quoted? they will probably wonder what it is all about but be willing to do so when it is all explained as I bet they have had to deal with the other end of this like your son.

 

 

Very, very useful information and I thank you sincerely. I think this may be the case as the permit is valid because I've seen it myself. The PCN says " parked without a valid permit ". I have a copy of their own evidential photograph clearly showing the permit displayed on the dashboard. If they change tack and say that it was parked in the wrong space, then surely that should have been on the ticket ?. I have not been to the location yet due to work things, but I'll get down there over the next few days and check it out. I will keep you posted !

[Bazooka Boo]

I would also be making a complaint to whoever the landowner/landlord is, who have employed such a disreputable company.

Besides any paint/parking bays on private land is just graffiti.

[topcat1802]

I used to rent a flat where there were 25 parking spaces and 25 flats. When I moved in my letting agreement did not include a parking space and actually told me I had to park elsewhere. A few weeks after moving in the managing agency sent a letter to all residents telling us which parking space belonged to which flat - it was a new build block therefore there was noting to say which flat had which space. A few weeks later we had a letter from UKPC telling us we had to apply for a parking permit form them. I never bothered as my letting agreement did not include a space, but the managing agency had told me I had a particular space allocated to the flat. I never applied for a permit, bat after a month or so UKPC sent me one anyway, which I left in the flat. We never had anything from UKPC until shortly before we were due to move out, when I can out in the morning there was the invoice - from our old friends UKPC for not displaying a permit, and the employee from UKPC had unfortunately left his car in the someone's space while he went out round all the other car parks in the complex - I only hope he had a type pump with him as when he came back to his car he would have had to inflate 4 tyres - if I had, had the time, he would have had to find 4 wheels.

[Billy's mate]

Great story Topcat, reminds me of the time that my Dad actually punched a TV Licence man on the nose ! - but that's a story for another day. I've been down to the car park again today and examined the parking signs. Apart from saying that you must have a valid permit, they also say that you must park ' in marked bays ', but there isn't a white line to be seen anywhere. The only ' markings ' are the small round discs on the ground with a number stamped on them. Where would you position a vehicle in relation to these discs ?. Does the disc indicate the front of the bay, the middle or the rear ?. There is also a sign at the entrance saying that you must enter the car park and read the other signs with the T & C's on them. I don't think that complies with their Code of a Practice.......just going to check now.

[Billy's mate]

Update : having just read the Code of Practice, their signs at the entrance may be compliant. I will be looking more into the advice provided by Eric's brother above. This poster is so knowledgeable, and my Username is a nod towards him / her. Thanks for your replies so far.

[Tony P]

Fundamentally, rights to parking within the curtilage of a building belong to the Freehold Owner unless he has granted Lease(s), then the right depends on the Head Lease and through that any sublease or Tenancy Agreement.

 

What a Managing Agent might have agreed with others, or say, or prefer, is irrelevant. But pushing water uphill is easier than convincing a Managing Agent with a vested interest!

[ericsbrother]

The info you have provided thusfar is useful for the future but first you need to know what the leases for the flats say about parking space allocation. If the person you son was visiting rents the flat then they should ask their landlord for the info or alternately the details are normally on the lease and will be available to download via the land registry website for £3

However, the wording of the ticket slapped on the car is so ambiguous that UKPC would get a good kicking if they went further than writing scary letters as the matter should be considered "de minimis" which means so trifling that it is of no interest to the law.

[Billy's mate]

Update : I've been down to the car park today and had a look at the bay markings. They are small metal studs in the ground which are difficult to see and it is difficult to differentiate between the bays. I telephoned the land owner today and spoke to a very helpful lady who told me that the land is a conservation area, and the local Council would not allow them to paint white lines on it. She said that she would look into the matter and send an e-mail to a contact within UKPC. I am awaiting a response from that. I can't give too much detail away at the moment in case UKPC are reading this, but I'll keep you all posted.

[ericsbrother]

But did she tell you how the spaces are allocated and what the agreement with UKPC is? Ther must be something in it that determines what UKPC are allowed to make decisions about and I bet that is very limited. Likewise get the info about the leases as they probably dont allow UKPC to do anything at all.

[Billy's mate]

Hi ericsbrother. I spoke to a resident at the apartments and he said that there's nothing in his lease about parking. The spaces are allocated by UKPC. He said that he came home from work one evening and someone had parked in his bay, so he just double parked alongside it. He obviously got a PCN for not parking in the allocated space, but rang the landowners and they had the PCN squashed. It was this resident who gave me the name of the person to contact. As I've said earlier, I've written to UKPC and asked them for a copy of their contract with the landowner. They haven't acknowledged that yet, but should do so by the 15th of December. So I'm waiting now for a response from the landowners, or an acknowledgement to my letter. I'll post further info when I get it. Thanks for your interest in my thread, and for your advice thus far.

[Billy's mate]

Well people, A RESULT !. First, a bit of background : my son parked his car at the Waterside Apartments in Liverpool City Centre. After UKPC had put the PCN on it, we sent a letter to them challenging the ticket, asking for their authority to act, pre-estimate of loss etc. the letter was dated the 26th of November, and was posted on the 27th. We have still not had an acknowledgement of this letter from them, and I was going to leave it 'til Monday the 15th before writing to them to tell them that their ticket was now null and void as they had breached the BPA Code of Conduct. I have also 'phoned a lady at the property management company ( Lambert Smith Hampton ), and told her about the heavy handed antics of UKPC at their apartment complex. She said that she would e-mail her contact at UKPC and get back to me. I haven't had a reply as yet. I was discussing this matter with a friend today, and logged on to the UKPC site to show my friend UKPC's evidential photographs. There, in red letters, were the words " this ticket has been cancelled ". I don't know if it was our challenge letter that did the trick because they could see that we were prepared to go all the way, or the intervention of the lady from Lambert Smith Hampton. Either way, UKPC did not get any money out of us !. Thank You to everyone who offered advice, it really was appreciated. I hope this spurs on others who might find themselves in this situation.

[Billy's mate]

PS : A donation has been made to help with the work of this great forum. Thank You again.

[ericsbrother]

UKPC do not allocate the spaces, they merely send people invoices for parking in a manner to which they disagree. They have nothing to do with the management or ownership of the land and even the managing agents dont have the powers to interfere withanyone goping about their lawful business in a manner that does not breach the conditions of the lease for the flats. these people think they have more powers than they actually have and unfortunately many lesees go along with it all as they dont know that things are different to what they are told. Well done for getting the result you wanted as that is the main purpose of stirring things up.

[Bazooka Boo]

Excellent result well done!

[abs2222]

He said that he came home from work one evening and someone had parked in his bay' date=' so he just double parked alongside it.[/quote']

The exact same thing happened to me, I came home from work to find someone had packed in my 'allocated' bay. I called UKPC to advised them that there was a unauthorised car in my spot and could they send out a patrol person to ticket the offending vehicle, I also told them that I would be parking my car in such a manner as to block the offending vehicle in - they advised me that I would be ticketed if I was incorrectly parked even though I had informed them of the situation. The car has since moved (the owner thought my space was his) and to the best of my knowledge UKPC have still not turned up (we are talking about 3 weeks ago) So even when you do the right thing - they will still punish you

[Billy's mate]

Looking at the signs in the car park, they say that you must have a valid permit, and you must park " within marked bays ", although they don't say " allocated " bays nor do they make any provision for visitors bays. The whole situation in our case was so flimsy that a judge would laugh it out of court. I now find myself studying parking notices in the car parks I visit, as well as retail shopping centres etc. I would not hesitate to challenge them again if I thought I was right, and would encourage anyone else to do so with the help of the people on this Forum. I know that a lot of people just pay the "fine" because they can't be doing with the hassle, and that's what these companies rely on. Put out a number of lines and you will eventually hook a fish - but not this fish !. Merry Christmas to all on here.

[ericsbrother]

a lot of the time you have to go back to the planning consent to make any real sense of what is and isnt permitted regarding parking restrictions. more than one PPC case has crumbled in court because their contracts were in breach of planning law. They have also had to pay compensation for ticketing people's cars parked in their own bays that were part of the lease so look at all perspectives of who is the "occupier" and whether a lawful contract can be formed before either paying or appealing. Often it is a management company that signs them up so the contract is voided by the lack of authority.