Ross & Roberts - advice on intimidation & threats within the house please

[ManMoontain]

Morning all

 

 

I have been reviewing some of the threads on here & having experienced an awful time with R&R; I have long since felt that I have grounds for complaint. I hope by sharing this experience I can get some direction as to where I can take this & what to expect to encounter on the way.

 

 

The story is a little convoluted, so please bear with me.

 

 

In April this year my wife (registered disabled) & disabled son were visited by an R&R bailiff whilst I was absent, the visit was very traumatic & upsetting for my wife & youngest son; & because the bailiff threatened immediate removal of goods, I had to return home immediately. A little annoying as I was waiting to go into a job interview.

 

 

Upon returning home, the bailiff explained that the debt was in my wife's name & pertained to a different council to in which we live & dated back nearly 12 years. She also explained that bailiffs had previously attended & had given a letter to my eldest son; which we did not receive. I should point out that my eldest son has high functioning aspergers syndrome, which is on the autism scale & was diagnosed over 10 years ago. I explained this to her, but she became less patient & said that it wasn't her concern, & that if a payment of £250 wasn't made immediately & a payment plan made she would immediately remove goods, which she began listing. At this time, my youngest son who has autism & dyspraxia became almost hysterical, crying that his toys & TV would be taken.

 

 

We explained again that we had no means of making that payment as I was unemployed, & that we only had £80. We offered a reduced payment which was rudely refused & told that if we couldn't pay within 10 minutes, she would commence removal as she had been there for nearly an hour by that stage.

 

 

We explained that we had no one to turn to, & that we needed more time. Again refused & told that she'd had enough. Ultimately my wife & I had to turn to my eldest son, & borrow money from him; we explained to the bailiff that the money was my son's Disability Living Allowance & that there must be another way to resolve this as we had no knowledge. Again we were told that she had had enough, & reluctantly we made the payment using my sons card in order that we can put the horrifying & degrading ordeal behind us.

 

 

This experience has long since haunted me as the initial CT bill was for £650, & the bailiff added another £233 in fees. The payment we made did not come off of our CT bill & there was no breakdown of charges either.

 

 

I'm convinced that we have grounds to complain, & would be grateful for a steer as to who to aim this at.

 

 

The CT bill is genuine, & we have no objection to paying this; however the methods used still hurt today & I'm fairly sure I wasn't the first treated like this; & certainly won't be the last.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

[tomtubby]

I am so sorry to hear of your experience. As you may have read on here, Ross & Roberts are owned by a company called Capita Ltd and in fact, many local authorities (for cost purposes) have "out sourced" their entire council tax department to Capita. Before considering making a complaint to the council you need to find out whether CAPITA manage the council tax dept. If so, the complaint may fall on "deaf ears" and to overcome this your complaint should be addressed to the Chief Executive.

 

From 6th April next year, the government will be introducing a new fee scale for bailiffs which will consist of an "administration fee" of £75 (and with VAT £90) and, if a visit is made a further "one off" enforcement fee of £230 (increasing to £275 with VAT) will be added as well. Therefore, from April if a debtor fails to pay at an initial visit stage the debt will INCREASE by £365 !!!!

 

Please DO NOT take my next comment personally but in posting, I am mindful of others that may view the thread either now or at a future stage.

 

Last year approx 3.3 million Liability Orders were obtained by local authorities. By law, the Local Authority MUST send an initial 14 day "warning letter" to the debtor.

 

Contrary to belief, debtors are able at this late stage to seek an agreement with the council to RETAIN the debt with the council and agree a payment proposal. In fact, of the 3.3 million Liability Orders obtained, LESS THAN HALF are sent to bailiffs after the 14 day "warning letter". Granted...some will pay in full at this stage but in reality; a large percentage agree payment proposals with the council and thereby avoid bailiff action.

 

In your case you have a son who is disabled and in receipt of DLA. With all due respects, unless EVIDENCE is provided BEFORE a bailiff visit they will not know before the visit if there is a case of "vulnerability". It is for this precise reason that if there is a vulnerability that it is imperative that this be brought to the attention of the Local Authority at the 14 day letter stage ( or preferably before) so as to avoid the debt being passed to bailiffs.

 

The other misconception is about allowing a bailiff into the property. A bailiff may ONLY gain entry by 'peaceful' means and in almost all cases, this will be by way of invitation into the property. If you cannot afford to pay the debt to the council then everyone needs to be aware that allowing a bailiff into the property will have the effect of INCREASING the already unaffordable debt to the council. I would NOT recommend allowing a bailiff entry into the property.

 

It is important to get the message out to the public to set up a payment plan with the council BEFORE the debt is passed to the bailiffs.

[wiseajak]

Also am

I correct in adding that bailiffs cannot take items that belong to a child?

[ManMoontain]

Thanks guys for taking the time to read my thread & reply.

 

 

Initially when the bailiff called, she was very low key at the door;explaining that it was a personal matter & would be best dealt with indoors. My wife didn't know that by allowing entry would open this can of worms.

 

 

In terms of the debt itself, it was one that was from another council in an area we lived over 10 years ago. In all honesty we couldn't remember it, & we didn't receive any letters from the council to this address. If its owed, its owed & the matter of paying it stands; my issue sits with the dealings of the bailiff.

 

 

I guess whereI am now is, can I contact the council & pay them directly? Is it actually worth complaining at this late stage in the day? I am sickened that when I pay my instalment to the bailiff, they hit me with a fee too. Anything that lines their pockets is money wasted!!

 

 

Again, thanks for your time.

[tomtubby]

Also am

I correct in adding that bailiffs cannot take items that belong to a child?

 

NO !!

 

A bailiff cannot take children's goods....but most importantly, you should not even be allowing the bailiff into your home so that he even has an opportunity to take children's goods !!!!

[ManMoontain]

Its been a hard lesson learned to not allow them in - at the time my wife was just caught off guard.

[wiseajak]

NO !!

 

A bailiff cannot take children's goods....but most importantly, you should not even be allowing the bailiff into your home so that he even has an opportunity to take children's goods !!!!

 

 

Did u misread my post?

 

I was asking, was i correct in knowing/saying that a bailiff CANNOT take children's goods, as the OP said his son got hysterical when he thought his toys and tv were going to be taken.

[tomtubby]

Sorry wisejack I understand.

[tomtubby]

Thanks guys for taking the time to read my thread & reply.

 

 

Initially when the bailiff called, she was very low key at the door;explaining that it was a personal matter & would be best dealt with indoors. My wife didn't know that by allowing entry would open this can of worms.

 

 

In terms of the debt itself, it was one that was from another council in an area we lived over 10 years ago. In all honesty we couldn't remember it, & we didn't receive any letters from the council to this address. If its owed, its owed & the matter of paying it stands; my issue sits with the dealings of the bailiff.

 

 

I guess whereI am now is, can I contact the council & pay them directly? Is it actually worth complaining at this late stage in the day? I am sickened that when I pay my instalment to the bailiff, they hit me with a fee too. Anything that lines their pockets is money wasted!!

 

 

Again, thanks for your time.

 

I am glad to hear your description as to the method used by the bailiff to gain entry. This is very common indeed.

 

I missread your initial post and thought that you had in fact paid the debt in full. Is that not the case?

 

When the bailiff gained entry, did she "levy upon goods"? If so, can you list the goods that were levied?

 

Have you spoken to the council to ascertain the PRECISE amount of the Liability Order?

 

Also, can you ask for the date on which the LO was issued?

 

What fees have been applied by the bailiff?

[ManMoontain]

Hi again

 

 

Sorry, just to clarify the bailiff didn't actually levy any of my sons goods; however due to the fact that she stated that she'll take whatever needs to cover the costs of the debt including the TV in the living room & the Ipad my son was playing on (which was mine)

 

 

The levy order (Form 7 notice of seizure & inventory of goods) was completed on the date the incident occurred, 18th April 2013.

 

 

The breakdown was for: £650.08 for the CT, £233.50 for the bailiffs costs (although there is no breakdown) Total: £883.58

 

 

In order to have a payment plan of £40 per month we had to make an initial payment of £250 - which never came off of our CT bill, & we were threatened with immediate removal.

 

 

Goods levied were:

Sony TV

Acer laptop

Ipad

PS3

Settee x2

Dining table & chairs

Wooden sideboard

Wooden table lamp.

 

 

In terms of speaking with the council, my wife spoke with them briefly after the event as we were unable to obtain from R&R a breakdown of bailiff costs, we haven't clarified the total LO? Or indeed the date it was raised.

 

 

Should we do this now?

 

 

Thanks again

[brassnecked]

Settee x2

Dining table & chairs

 

If the bailiff removed these would there be any seating left for the whole family?

 

Are the laptop and PS3 and Ipad a childs?

 

If so this levy is looking dodgy.

 

Now you know why they are referred to as Ross 'n Robbers

[ManMoontain]

Settee x2

Dining table & chairs

 

If the bailiff removed these would there be any seating left for the whole family?

 

Are the laptop and PS3 and Ipad a childs?

 

If so this levy is looking dodgy.

 

Now you know why they are referred to as Ross 'n Robbers

 

 

Hi there

 

If the settees were removed, we'd all be sat on the floor. In terms of the IPad, that's mine; however the PS3 & laptop are my daughters

 

But yep, definitely see the nickname now!!

 

Could I challenge this levy based on this?

 

Cheers

[brassnecked]

The bailiff MUST leave sufficient seating for the whole family, and as the lappy and PS3 are the childs she can't have them either.

 

Is the TV top of the range 55" LED or suchlike, if not a 40" flatscreen even a Sony is entry level these days, and if sold along with the goods left on the levy not exempt would not fetch enough at auction to cover all fees and a portion of the debt, I feel the levy may be challenged. Other Caggers will give further useful advice soon I have no doubt.

[ManMoontain]

The bailiff MUST leave sufficient seating for the whole family, and as the lappy and PS3 are the childs she can't have them either.

 

Is the TV top of the range 55" LED or suchlike, if not a 40" flatscreen even a Sony is entry level these days, and if sold along with the goods left on the levy not exempt would not fetch enough at auction to cover all fees and a portion of the debt, I feel the levy may be challenged. Other Caggers will give further useful advice soon I have no doubt.

 

Hi there

 

Thanks for the advice - the TV is a 2006 Sony 40", so definitely not top of the range!

 

What process would I need to look at in order to challenge the levy? Also would that render their charges void too?

 

Thanks again

[ploddertom]

You need to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

 

With the debt being so old can the Council actually produce the paperwork that proves the debt exists, it is insufficient for them just to say it does? I would probably be asking what their write off policy was - this was for the policy at the time of the debt and not the present one.

[ploddertom]

As far as the Bailiff is concerned it is simply not good enough for them to lump all the fees together, they need to explain them and knowing those concerned it will probably turn out to be a work of fiction. You can use the following, adapt & use as you see fit and preferably send initially by email followed by a copy in the post.

 

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

[ManMoontain]

Thanks ploddertom, I'm going to pull those together & get those off in the morning & will keep you updated as to the progress.

 

 

Thanks all for your help thus far!!

[new-me2010]

Then there is the Vulnerability aspect. National Standards for enforcement Agents

 

Vulnerable situations



Enforcement agents/agencies and creditors must recognise that they each have a role in ensuring that the vulnerable and socially excluded are protected and that the recovery process includes procedures agreed between the agent/agency and creditor about how such situations should be dealt with. The appropriate use of discretion is essential in every case and no amount of guidance could cover every situation, therefore the agent has a duty to contact the creditor and report the circumstances in situations where there is evidence of a potential cause for concern. If necessary, the enforcement agent will advise the creditor if further action is appropriate. The exercise of appropriate discretion is needed, not only to protect the debtor, but also the enforcement agent who should avoid taking action which could lead to accusations of inappropriate behaviour.



Enforcement agents must withdraw from domestic premises if the only person present is, or appears to be, under the age of 18; they can ask when the debtor will be home - if appropriate.



Enforcement agents must withdraw without making enquiries if the only persons present are children who appear to be under the age of 12.



Wherever possible, enforcement agents should have arrangements in place for rapidly accessing translation services when these are needed, and provide on request information in large print or in Braille for debtors with impaired sight.



Those who might be potentially vulnerable include:



the elderly;



people with a disability;



the seriously ill;



the recently bereaved;



single parent families;



pregnant women;



unemployed people; and,



those who have obvious difficulty in understanding, speaking or reading English.

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?379212-National-Standards-for-Enforcement-Agents

[Ian olney]

R&R are obliged to give you a breakdown of their fees.

 

Write to them, copying the council in on your letter.

 

Post back on here when you receive the breakdown & we should be able to get those charges cut down based on what you have posted.

 

Forget about complaining how the bailiff dishonestly, deceptively obtained entry to your house, it is your word against hers. Keep any complaint that you may have to facts. Finger pointing with nothing to corroborate your claim just bogs the complaint down.

[ManMoontain]

Hi Ploddertom

 

 

Having spoken with the council, the CT goes back to FY 2002/2003 (which is when we left) & the LO was raised on Nov 14th 2002. The value for the LO is as per the bailiff's notice of £650.08, with a remaining balance of £389.58 - it also seems that R&R are paying my instalments timely.

 

 

The initial enforcement went out in 2003, but was returned & the council says that it sent a 14 day letter out in May last year but had no response. I never received it, but we are where we are.

 

 

So effectively the bailiffs had the enforcement notice for around 11 months before taking action..

[ManMoontain]

Thanks all again for the advice, I'll keep you posted as to the progress..!