Self Assessment late penalties

[gazhodge1981]

Hi all,

 

Just need some advice please.

 

I was in a partnership with 2 others from July 2006 to November 2012, i was not really involved in the business, more just a name on paper.

 

I have worked while in the partnership and have always paid my tax through PAYE so i have no tax outstanding. The business never made a profit and money was always put in to keep it afloat.

 

In the last 18 month the tax office have been in touch with me regarding outstanding self assessment tax returns which i wasn't aware of as the business used an account to do account and returns, so i just gave my forms to them and didnt think much to it, till i started to get letters saying i had to pay this, it was always different amounts.

I finally managed to get online so i could see the information on what my account was like and i was so shocked to see that i had 4 missing self assessments. 07-08, 09-10, 10-11, 11-12 .

As you can imagine the late penalty fees have mounted up and as it stands it is nearly £6500 on the account.

I have spoke to the HRMC 4 or 5 times in the last 9 months and have registered online which i was only just told i could do a few weeks ago. I have returned all but the 07-08 online, i have even done the 12-13 return.

The accountant that the business used has since retired in 2011 (not seen again) which i didn't know about and another accountant is doing the returns for the business at the moment to get them in i have been told.

I spoke to hmrc last week who told me they had reduced my tax code to collect extra money though my tax as i pay tax through PAYE. This week getting phone calls of a company called Blue Stone credit management (not spoken to them). which i would think is to collect money for the above.

 

It looks a right mess to me and i really cant afford the late penalty charges.

 

Any advice would be great as i really don't know what to do.

[BazzaS]

Hi all,

 

Just need some advice please.

 

I was in a partnership with 2 others from July 2006 to November 2012, i was not really involved in the business, more just a name on paper.

 

I have worked while in the partnership and have always paid my tax through PAYE so i have no tax outstanding. The business never made a profit and money was always put in to keep it afloat.

 

In the last 18 month the tax office have been in touch with me regarding outstanding self assessment tax returns which i wasn't aware of as the business used an account to do account and returns, so i just gave my forms to them and didnt think much to it, till i started to get letters saying i had to pay this, it was always different amounts.

I finally managed to get online so i could see the information on what my account was like and i was so shocked to see that i had 4 missing self assessments. 07-08, 09-10, 10-11, 11-12 .

As you can imagine the late penalty fees have mounted up and as it stands it is nearly £6500 on the account.

I have spoke to the HRMC 4 or 5 times in the last 9 months and have registered online which i was only just told i could do a few weeks ago. I have returned all but the 07-08 online, i have even done the 12-13 return.

The accountant that the business used has since retired in 2011 (not seen again) which i didn't know about and another accountant is doing the returns for the business at the moment to get them in i have been told.

I spoke to hmrc last week who told me they had reduced my tax code to collect extra money though my tax as i pay tax through PAYE. This week getting phone calls of a company called Blue Stone credit management (not spoken to them). which i would think is to collect money for the above.

 

It looks a right mess to me and i really cant afford the late penalty charges.

 

Any advice would be great as i really don't know what to do.

 

 

Is the £6500 all late penalty fees (if so, can we have the breakdown ) or "Assessments" made in the absence of returns?.

 

If late penalty fees : seems excessive given it is only recent years that they have ramped up the penalties.

 

If "assessments" they sum owed may reduce (or disappear!) once they have processed your returns.

If the latter I advise contacting "Collections" within HMRC and ask for them to put a hold on collection activity until your submitted returns have been processed.

They'll be able to see if there are returns submitted, and if they are awaiting processing, so may well agree a "hold" pending their processing.

 

Sadly, failure of an agent (the accountant) to submit returns only counts in mitigation rather than an excuse, but they may well cut you some slack!

[honeybee13]

Hello there, I'm sorry to hear you're having problems.

 

I'm moving your thread to the HMRC forum which is where we deal with tax issues, with a redirect from the benefits forum.

 

My best, HB

[gazhodge1981]

Thanks for the reply's Bazzas and HB

 

The break down of the penalty charges are as follows:-

 

07 -08 - Tax £0

Interest £38.56

Penalties £400

sub total £438.56

Less payments for this year £100 - no idea what this is?

Total £338.56

 

09-10 -

Tax £0

Interest £14.42

Penalties £200

Total £214.42

 

10-11 -

Tax £0

Interest £104.10

Penalties £3200

Total £3304.10

 

11-12 -

Tax £0

Interest £7.38

Penalties £2600

Total £2607.38

 

I can get a breakdown of the penalties if it helps.

 

The returns i have done online show they have been submitted and received.

 

Thanks in advance for your help

[gazhodge1981]

Hi all,

 

does anyone know if a could appeal the late penalty charges and not the non failure to file charges using the same argument that Morgan vs HMRC and Donaldson VS HMRC did earlier this year in the first tier???

 

thanks in advance

[BazzaS]

You certainly need a breakdown of the penalties.

 

The penalties have been escalated since 2010/11 tax year (the penalty was £100 maximum before this), but even so, unless there is significant tax owed, is still a maximum of £1300 per year as described at

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/sa/deadlines-penalties.htm#7

 

Correction : now £1600 penalty for a return > 1 year overdue

(£100 for 1st day late, £900 for 3 months late [at £10/day], £300 for 6 months late, and a further £300 if a year late).

 

The Donaldson & Morgan ruling(s) might impact on the £900 component ("daily penalties"), but not the £100, £300 and £300 "fixed period" (1 day, 6 month, 12 month) penalties.

 

Hence why the breakdown is essential.

I note you say the returns have been submitted and received : you might want to check again when you can add "and processed" to that!

Edited November 14, 2013 by BazzaS

[gazhodge1981]

I will get the breakdown now BazzaS,

 

Thanks for your help so far

[gazhodge1981]

2011-2012 -

21 Mar 2013 Late filing penalty £100.00

21 Mar 2013 Partnership late filing penalty £100.00

20 Sep 2013 Daily penalty £900.00

20 Sep 2013 Partnership daily penalty £900.00

20 Sep 2013 6 month late filing penalty £300.00

20 Sep 2013 Partnership 6 month late filing penalty £300.00

 

Total £2600

 

2010-2011 -

 

20 Mar 2012 Late filing penalty £100.00

20 Mar 2012 Partnership late filing penalty £100.00

13 Sep 2012 Daily penalty 900.00

13 Sep 2012 Partnership daily penalty £900.00

13 Sep 2012 6 month late filing penalty 300.00

13 Sep 2012 Partnership 6 month late filing penalty £300.00

28 Mar 2013 12 month late filing penalty £300.00

28 Mar 2013 Partnership 12 month late filing penalty £300.00

 

Total £3200

 

The other years are just £100 late penalties

 

I could just cry

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi all,

 

does anyone know if a could appeal the late penalty charges and not the non failure to file charges using the same argument that Morgan vs HMRC and Donaldson VS HMRC did earlier this year in the first tier???

 

thanks in advance

 

The Tribunal ruled in favour of Morgan and Donaldson which were slightly different situations. HMRC are currently appealing against the Donaldson ruling which was more concerned with penalties than tax. I don't know when the Appeal will be heard.

[gazhodge1981]

The Tribunal ruled in favour of Morgan and Donaldson which were slightly different situations. HMRC are currently appealing against the Donaldson ruling which was more concerned with penalties than tax. I don't know when the Appeal will be heard.

 

Thank you for getting back to me,

 

I have checked and it does seem to be on appeal

 

Does anyone know what the best way to appeal is and how is best to write the appeal.

 

I seem to not have many options.

 

One thing i have noticed his morning is that all my returns say that they have been submitted and received but they have added interest to the account 3 weeks after they were submitted.

 

19 Nov 2013 Accruing late payment interest for second penalty for late tax return due 08 Sep 2009 - an example - as they were filled in October can they do this?

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Gaz,

 

Firstly write to HMRC, or call them, and say you want to appeal and they will send you the forms. You can then ask for own adjudicator to look at your papers, or if you prefer you can go straight to the Tribunal. (If their adjudicator refuses you can still go to the Tribunal afterwards.)

 

I'm appealing the first year that they changed the rules - 2010. Until then if you didn't owe tax you didn't have penalties even if your returns were late and I think it is absolutely iniquitous that they brought in this charge. I had spoken to someone at HMRC about this particular year and she had confirmed in our conversation that there would be no penalties if there was no tax payable and she was wrong. I made them provide a tape and you can hear her quite clearly.

 

I was waiting for a Tribunal date but my case has been stayed twice - first waiting for the Donaldson hearing and now for the HMRC Appeal.

 

I would certainly put an appeal in.

 

Good luck.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

I'm sorry I don't know enough about when and where they can add interest.

[gazhodge1981]

Thanks DD all the above is a great help and will write to them today,

 

Will keep you posted and thanks again for taking your time to reply.

[Desperate Daniella]

Happy to help, and I'm sorry I don't know more.

 

I searched the site about this when I was appealing and there isn't very much here, but you could try. I can't remember the names of the threads, but there wasn't too much on them. Might be worth a look though as your case is different to mine.