Jump to content


style="text-align:center;"> Please note that this topic has not had any new posts for the last 2082 days.

If you are trying to post a different story then you should start your own new thread. Posting on this thread is likely to mean that you won't get the help and advice that you need.

If you are trying to post information which is relevant to the story in this thread then please flag it up to the site team and they will allow you to post.

Thank you

Recommended Posts

Hi,

Just a quick question regarding following works procedures.

If you do your job and the company accept the way you (and others) have carried out your duties over a long period of time, can they all of a sudden say you have not followed the procedures laid out and dismiss you for gross misconduct ?

Having never been told/warned or had any discipline about it previously. Or is it a case of tough luck.

 

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tricky to prove, but depending on the nature of the 'offence' it may be possible to argue Custom and Practice - ie that the the policies laid down in the T&Cs have been superseded by the management implying acceptance that the procedures that you have been adopting instead are acceptable. Your case would be strengthened by examples of who said what and when, who was aware and accepted your way of working, witness statements of others which support this. Also, could you have reasonably known that what you were doing was wrong?

 

There is also the matter that disciplinary sanctions should be applied fairly and equally to those who have been guilty of the same misdemeanour. Were all those who did this act similarly dismissed?

 

What strikes me straight away is that Gross Misconduct is an act which is so serious that it breaches the fundamental relationship of trust and confidence and is so serious that it makes it impossible for the relationship to continue - it would normally be a matter of theft, violence, fraud etc, although could include a serious H&S breach. If this were a matter of GM, why has it taken the employer so long to deal with it?

 

All of this of course is largely irrelevant if you do not have the requisite two years service after which you would be able to seek redress in law for an unfair dismissal - how long have you worked there?

 

You should certainly be appealing the decision to dismiss on the basis of the above.


Any advice given is done so on the assumption that recipients will also take professional advice where appropriate.

 

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

DONATE HERE

 

If I have been helpful in any way - please feel free to click on the STAR to the left!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tricky to prove, but depending on the nature of the 'offence' it may be possible to argue Custom and Practice - ie that the the policies laid down in the T&Cs have been superseded by the management implying acceptance that the procedures that you have been adopting instead are acceptable. Your case would be strengthened by examples of who said what and when, who was aware and accepted your way of working, witness statements of others which support this. Also, could you have reasonably known that what you were doing was wrong?

 

There is also the matter that disciplinary sanctions should be applied fairly and equally to those who have been guilty of the same misdemeanour. Were all those who did this act similarly dismissed?

 

What strikes me straight away is that Gross Misconduct is an act which is so serious that it breaches the fundamental relationship of trust and confidence and is so serious that it makes it impossible for the relationship to continue - it would normally be a matter of theft, violence, fraud etc, although could include a serious H&S breach. If this were a matter of GM, why has it taken the employer so long to deal with it?

 

All of this of course is largely irrelevant if you do not have the requisite two years service after which you would be able to seek redress in law for an unfair dismissal - how long have you worked there?

 

You should certainly be appealing the decision to dismiss on the basis of the above.

 

Thank you for that thorough reply.

In fact it does involve a case of 'intentional loss off company stock' which = theft and not following 'numerous procedures'.

Scenario is:

Delivery is made and Barman hands the delivery note back to driver(without signing), his 2nd man takes the delivery note back to wagon but the barman then calls the driver to say he has a cheque for him to take back, so the driver then signs the Green(Customer copy) to acknowledge the payment. So as far as they are concerned the delivery was correct.

Forward 2 weeks and driver is pulled into a meeting as the owner of the bar is claiming he was a barrel short, and the Green note(that the driver signed to acknowledge the payment) has been altered to say it was a barrel short.

The driver, never alters the delivery notes by just crossing out quantities, he makes an asterisk next to the items and then writes in the comments box so it is obvious that the note was amended by the barman/manager after the delivery.

 

To be honest he has not helped himself during his interviews as he was trying to give examples to explain what could have happened by mistake, like the barrel getting dropped at a different pub by mistake.

 

Now he has asked for me to advise him and I have looked through the interview notes that he had and to be honest he has contradicted himself, but only trying to justify what could explain the customers complaint ..... he really is that honest that he didn't realise that offering a different scenario rather than just saying NO the delivery was correct would lead to this.

 

So we now have a case of not following procedures and intentional loss of company stock.

 

The disciplinary hearing notes provided by the company, unsigned by my mate ..... at one stage they say that after a thorough investigation we know that the goods were picked and checked correctly and then loaded on the wagon ......... Later on they say that we "Think" the order was correct.

 

Plus the fact that the company allow drops of stock to be allowed even without anyone on the premises at delivery time.

 

Any advice welcome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A bit more advice please on this regarding an appeal.

It says you must include copies of the documents that you will use in your appeal, He obviously doesn't have these, so my question is this. Can he request an explanation of the 'numerous procedures' that are alledged to have not been followed and copies of them, copies of previous delivery notes that have been returned in the same fashion(unsigned) and found to be acceptable, and can he also request a copy of his personnel file to show there are no warnings verbal or written regarding the situation of not getting notes signed.

If they will not produce copies of certain documents, will they have to make them available in the appeal meeting for him to refer to ?

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who is "he"? You? Are you the driver or theappeals manager or someone else?


Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Who is "he"? You? Are you the driver or theappeals manager or someone else?

No it is not for me, it is for my mate who was dismissed along with his drivers mate for the same incident and he isn't very good at putting his case accross, so he has asked for my help in putting together an appeal letter. His dispute procedure also mentions using

To be honest I am a bit confused by his Discipline Appeal Procedure as it says:

 

1. The Company subscribes to the principle of settling any disputed management decisions speedily,

fairly and with the least stress to all concerned as well as the principle that it is better for all parties

concerned to try to resolve their differences in face-to-face discussions rather than by way of slow and

costly litigation in the courts or employment tribunals.

USING THIS INTERNAL APPEALS PROCEDURE IS AN IMPORTANT CONTRACTUAL

OBLIGATION ON BOTH PARTIES. Accordingly, it is hereby agreed that you will not take any other

steps to challenge a Company decision without proper justification, until its provisions have been

completely observed by you and that if you were to do so the Company will be entitled to recover from

you the cost unnecessarily incurred by it as a result.

In order to appeal against any action taken against you, you should write to the person who chaired

the meeting where the decision was taken. Your letter should give your reasons for the appeal and

should explain why you think that the decision was wrong and why it should be reversed or changed.

With the appeal letter you should include copies of any documentation or statements which you wish

to be considered. If you are unable to enclose all such documentation with the letter of appeal, you

should still send it off but should also explain when the additional documents will be available.

 

And then it says:

 

2. To ensure clarity and fairness in the procedure, an independent body, Staff Dispute Resolution UK,

has been retained to express an unbiased opinion on the merits of any appeal against a matter that is

serious enough to terminate your employment.

In the event of making an appeal against such a decision, you must also ensure that copies of all the

relevant paperwork is sent promptly to Staff Dispute Resolution UK

 

I'm struggling to understand the route he should take because these two statements seem to contradict themselves.

This is why I was asking about documentation, as the company are obviously not going to send him copies of invoices due to client confidentiality, so how is he supposed to send them to this Third Party Company to assist in his appeal.

What about his personnel file, should he be able to insist on a copy of this to show his previous good discipline record ?

I'm totally impartial and just helping a mate out, unfortunately I'm not getting too far and the clock is ticking.

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read the contract as "no lawyers until we've exhausted internal proceedings, but if we sacked you, we'll get someone external to look at it."

 

I wouldn't bank on bthe company providing any incriminating evidence whatsoever. He's on his own.

 

If they are not disputing his clean record then his staff file is irrelevant.

 

I would fess up to the crime but plead penalty too harsh due to mitigating circumstances of custom and practice over many years. And I'd be joining a union for the future.


Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He isn't trying to get his job back but they have put down 'GROSS MISCONDUCT' Failure to follow numerous company procedures resulting in the intentional loss of stock .... this implies theft. He isn't bothered about the failure to follow procedures but feels the implication of theft is totally out of order and unsubstantiated. Blimey they could put anything down nowadays if they want to.

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...