20 metre limit for PIP has been agreed!

[dpick]

I would say that on balance there are fewer genuine claimants than there are [problematic], if my towns are anything to go by. Normally on a Saturday morning I go into town and have a coffee close to a large disabled only parking area. I sit there and watch them. Crutches under both arms and stick merchants that never touch the floor. Go and have a look at the tax disc - hey ho disabled nil tax!!

 

Of the car park of the village pub, there are three cars parked up every Friday and Saturday evening that have nil tax discs- yet go inside and not a stick or crutch to be seen. What you can see are 6/7 guys in their early 30's swilling beer for the next 4 hours, then at 11.30pm they all pile into the 3 cars and head to the local nightspots in town!

 

 

I would say that this is another case of you only see those able to be out and about. My wife is house bound unless someone drives her it is still her car but people assume that it is the driver who is disabled when they are not my wife gets taken to bingo, comes into bingo by a back entrance that is opened for her is taken to a seat near the toilets so all you would see is a car with a disabled badge appearing in car park and persons all able to walk ok as they would already have dropped off my wife at another entrance ( the fire exit)

 

dpick

[mr_mastiff]

Me? Being silly? Surely not!

 

There's no known test that can prove someone has severe depression, for example - lots of conditions are poorly understood but the presence of a coherent set of symptoms indicates that there is a problem. Same with FM, ME and CFS. The fact that we don't actually understand what causes those symptoms is not relevant to whether or not they exist and give rise to care or mobility needs. I mean, only a couple of decades ago, we didn't understand how bumblebees could fly - this seemed to violate all known laws of aerodynamics. Yet fly they did: it was our understanding that was flawed. Presumably you would argue that the bees were merely pretending to fly.

 

Antone I can give at least 3 examples of people I have met who have neurological disorders that cannot be diagnosed. Two of whom have made successful DLA claims based purely on symptomatic needs. I helped one fill in the form and even the consultants letter stated neurological disorder of unknown type. The letter simply stated her symptoms and all the various tests that had taken place, many of which were negative.

 

There were many unique symptoms and the lady involved attend a meeting where five consultant neurologists examined her and reviewed every detail, and when asked what the problem was they replied we don,t know.

[Derwent]

I would say that on balance there are fewer genuine claimants than there are [problem]mers, if my towns are anything to go by. Normally on a Saturday morning I go into town and have a coffee close to a large disabled only parking area. I sit there and watch them. Crutches under both arms and stick merchants that never touch the floor. Go and have a look at the tax disc - hey ho disabled nil tax!!

 

Of the car park of the village pub, there are three cars parked up every Friday and Saturday evening that have nil tax discs- yet go inside and not a stick or crutch to be seen. What you can see are 6/7 guys in their early 30's swilling beer for the next 4 hours, then at 11.30pm they all pile into the 3 cars and head to the local nightspots in town!

 

So only those who need walking aids have mobility problems ? What about those people with, say, severe cardio-vascular problems who do not need "crutches and sticks" but who can only manage a few steps before being completely out of breath ? In your world those people would be fraudsters as they don't need a stick to walk with. You are an idiot.

[mr_mastiff]

@bedofweeds

 

Your comment regarding how well a claimant can acts in front of a tribunal or fills out forms is yet again another ill thought out slur on ill and disabled individuals.

 

Im not sure you are aware but we need medical evidence from doctors and such like to support our claims.

 

So to suggest someone can just "act" there way onto benefits is just all out propaganda.

 

Hi Dyfed, I worked in the NHS for many years, The vast majority of disabled people very often understate their problems, something that as a nurse when I gained more experience would take into account when assessing their true needs.

 

However, when I have assessed people who have tried to act (as bedofweeds would put it) they were very easy to identify. If large numbers of "acting" disabled are fooling the system for ESA and now PIP it speaks volumes about the competence and training of individuals carrying out the assessment.

[sadone]

@bedofweeds

 

Your comment regarding how well a claimant can acts in front of a tribunal or fills out forms is yet again another ill thought out slur on ill and disabled individuals.

 

Im not sure you are aware but we need medical evidence from doctors and such like to support our claims.

 

So to suggest someone can just "act" there way onto benefits is just all out propaganda.

 

 

Agreed, and I don't understand why anyone is even bothering to engage with this person, who imo is acting like an obvious Troll.

[mr_mastiff]

I personally feel sorry for him and believe his obnoxiousness is a cry for help. Please read the following

 

One motive for trolling, and perhaps one we're all most familiar with, seems to be simple boredom – too much free time after school, at work, or between jobs. These are the individuals who are trolling to kill a few hours, entertain themselves, and even impress others of a similar mindset.

 

Groups of trolls coalesce on bulletin-board sites such as 4chan, where they post links to targets that might prove "fun", and compete with each other to see who can be the funniest, cleverest, or most extreme. Interestingly, those same sites also tend to be the powerhouses that generate internet "memes" – popular concepts that spread beyond the internet to become part of our offline culture.

 

A second motive appears to be a need for attention, a craving that will accept any kind of attention, however positive or negative, as long as that person is at the centre of it. Such individuals may not just post offensive messages, but also annoyingly implausible stories, grand claims, and obvious lies.

 

A third motive seems to involve a sense of disenfranchisement. In a climate where even graduates with good degrees are struggling to find jobs, and house prices make getting on the property ladder an impossible dream for many, it's little surprise that a selection of the population may consider themselves short-changed. It would take a strong character not to feel a sense of injustice at the fact that, a generation earlier, their exact counterparts were walking into secure, lifelong employment and able to buy nice homes.

 

For some individuals, this sense of being cheated may extend into pure epicaricacy, a malicious desire to try to make those enjoying greater success feel as miserably trapped and oppressed as themselves. The rather sad logic of this is that by dragging the more successful person down, the damaging contrast with their own failure is lessened, and they won't feel quite so bad about themselves.

Edited October 24, 2013 by mr_mastiff
gramma

[Surfer01]

Hang on, I too have been awarded HRM & MRC indefinitely, so you can't say that I'm not in the same boat as you! I tend to look at the bigger picture, not just my own misfortunes. The bigger picture is that the DLA criteria has over the past 21 years has gained more holes than the Titanic had.

 

It is right that the government go right back to the days pre 1992 when only the most severely and vulnerable were awarded a similar benefit - Mobility Allowance. Now you have kids with goodness knows what - ADHD etc - enabling mum and dad to get DLA for them. Then we have the arthritis claimants that are supposed to need 24 hour care and can't put one foot in front of another making claims. Then the ME - CFS claimants - what is all that about. None of those conditions or the effects of them would have seen the light of day pre 1992. There was one woman recently on he JK show who had a stick and appeared to need it to move 1 metre. She was described by JK as being severely disabled. Yet she managed to get up and out of her chair 5 times unaided and the stick went from the left hand to the right hand and back again unsure as to which side of her body needed assistance!

 

Why also have these claimants all of a sudden become so dependent on a car being provided for them when most people in this country have to buy their own and run it themselves. I don't have a mobility car. Independence means looking after and taking control of your own life, and not expecting the state to nanny you.

 

What do you think people did pre 1992 who couldn't afford a car? What do you think that people that work now full time on NMW if they can't afford a car?

 

Sorry, but you need to take a reality check. You may have had a 'soft' life for years, but unfortunately the time is now to realise how hard life can be.

 

I don't get any sick enjoyment in what I say. I look at the cold facts no matter how uncomfortable they are. There is a serious shortage of money in this country - life on benefits has been far too easy in the past.

 

Of course I may get PIP I may not. But I don't bleat about it being unfair. If we lose over £262 a week from our benefits DLA + Premiums so be it. I've lived through a hard life and had extremely hard times in the past, going back doesn't worry me just as long as those that are the most severely disabled and vulnerable receive help, I would willingly give up our £262 a week. I've been homeless, and poor in the past through alcohol. I've begged for money - so don't tell me that people will suffer if they lose their DLA.

 

I have rheumatoid arthritis plus worn joints in my lower back and I would not wish either on my worst enemy. Some days I am fairly "normal" and other days I do not want to get out of bed. It also depends on how much medication I take.

At times I can easily walk the first 20 metres, but the next 20m I start suffering some discomfort and if walking further the discomfort is so severe that I have to stop and wait for the pain to subside as I cannot move backward or forward. Should I state that I can walk 40 or more metres with discomfort or state that I can walk 20m with little discomfort? To walk any distance most times I have to rely on my elbow crutches.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Surfer01

[mr_mastiff]

I have rheumatoid arthritis plus worn joints in my lower back and I would not wish either on my worst enemy. Some days I am fairly "normal" and other days I do not want to get out of bed. It also depends on how much medication I take.

At times I can easily walk the first 20 metres, but the next 20m I start suffering some discomfort and if walking further the discomfort is so severe that I have to stop and wait for the pain to subside as I cannot move backward or forward. Should I state that I can walk 40 or more metres with discomfort or state that I can walk 20m with little discomfort? To walk any distance most times I have to rely on my elbow crutches.

 

I think the post by invalidation (21) applies in your case.

 

"Repeatedly, Reliably or Safely "

[worried33]

Thanks at least you are seeing what is happening. What should happen? The DWP must believe the claimant as it is impossible to prove it? And where would that get us? Treat all claimants as being totally honest - as if!

 

If it cannot be proven and it is entirely down to how a claimant fills in a form or is able to act in front of a Tribunal - that will lead to a dangerous place. What happens to those claimants that can't fill out these forms properly or are so nervous at a Tribunal that they come over as being unsure - should they lose out?

 

The best parts of PIP are the continual re-assessment and assessment by descriptors.

 

It is quite possible that if I went for an assessment for PIP I would be well able to make out that I could only walk a maximum of 10 metres and would be in agony for hours afterwards. Should I be given the enhanced rate. No, I would have to prove the 10 metre limit using medical evidence and tests. It wouldn't matter what state I was in afterwards as I would have proven the 10 metre limit.

 

However if my statement of 10 metres was proven to be exaggerated and the consultant said the figure was more like 100 metres, then I would have to rely on the non ability to do the whole thing again which I couldn't prove was the case and the DWP couldn't prove it wasn't.

 

Hence a Tribunal which would rely entirely on how the claimant comes over - good liar or poor honest and nervous individual.

 

Tribunals probably do apply some 'benefit of the doubt' at times, which is common sense, but I expect they first need to see either evidence such as consultant reports or have the DWP evidence discredited such as proving an ATOS report inaccurate. They not the soft touch you think they are.

 

estellyn has even kindly posted about tribunals she was at some tribunals where the tribunal didnt take their word for it.

 

The only thing I agree with you on is that the DWP method of determining eligibility is wtong, thats it, I dont agree on the new walking distance and I dont agree on the idea of only rewarding DLA to very extreme cases.

 

The difference between me and a extreme case is I probably have an easier time of moving around my flat then someone who is eg. paralysed would, but outside in an area thats bigger than the 5m of the length of my flat the rules change, on my way to my tribunal last week I had someone in the street stop to ask me if I was ok (a clear indication I was clearly not walking normal), and I was only about 15m into the distance I had to move. I gave myself 40minutes headroom as I wasnt sure how long it would take me to get to the tribunal (is pedastranised area) the taxi guy didnt know his way around well and dumped me further down then he could have done, I ended up getting there with about 5 mins spare, the distance to walk for a normal person is probably 5 minutes.

[worried33]

I have rheumatoid arthritis plus worn joints in my lower back and I would not wish either on my worst enemy. Some days I am fairly "normal" and other days I do not want to get out of bed. It also depends on how much medication I take.

At times I can easily walk the first 20 metres, but the next 20m I start suffering some discomfort and if walking further the discomfort is so severe that I have to stop and wait for the pain to subside as I cannot move backward or forward. Should I state that I can walk 40 or more metres with discomfort or state that I can walk 20m with little discomfort? To walk any distance most times I have to rely on my elbow crutches.

 

yeah and your problem would be if assessed by a atos visiting doctor, you walk 5m to your chair, you do that easily (as is a good day) and then because they didnt see how you are between 20-40m they apply the DWP rule that they assume you can do 200m because of you walking to your chair.

 

It seems the DWP think (wrongly) that if someone cannot do 50m then they would show signs the moment they stand up and take one step.

[RaeUK]

I'm glad bedofweeds/trolls/hensteeth/delia/whatever is finally getting the comments he/she deserves. But, crikey chaps, isn't there something you can do about repetitive trolls? Other vbulletin forums can isolate at ISP level ...

(Serious question. If it's just about money then yell. I'd happily bung in a tenner to a fund to get rid of trolls. This site is about helping people. Not helping some inadequate masturbate furiously at the thought of hampering others)

Edited October 25, 2013 by RaeUK

[pitcher]

I'm glad bedofweeds/trolls/hensteeth/delia/whatever is finally getting the comments he/she deserves. But, crikey chaps, isn't there something you can do about repetitive trolls? Other vbulletin forums can isolate at ISP level ...

(Serious question. If it's just about money then yell. I'd happily bung in a tenner to a fund to get rid of trolls. This site is about helping people. Not helping some inadequate masturbate furiously at the thought of hampering others)

One of the best posts I've ever seen on CAG. Well done Rea , neat,funny and right to the point.

my best

pitcher

[ You have a spare tenner?, lucky you!]

[sillygirl1]

As far as bedofweeds stating there is no test for a stiff neck, what about MRI and CT scans, which found out that I have osteoporosis and four collapsing vertebrae which have managed to trap my ulnar nerve - so there ARE tests out there and should be carried out by ATOS to establish whether or not GPs are referring people properly (in most cases they are NOT).

 

As far as persistent trolls on this forum goes, the site team usually do a very good job of moderating them.

[bedofweeds]

I'm glad bedofweeds/trolls/hensteeth/delia/whatever is finally getting the comments he/she deserves. But, crikey chaps, isn't there something you can do about repetitive trolls? Other vbulletin forums can isolate at ISP level ...

(Serious question. If it's just about money then yell. I'd happily bung in a tenner to a fund to get rid of trolls. This site is about helping people. Not helping some inadequate masturbate furiously at the thought of hampering others)

 

Thanks for that, but I don't know what you are going on about. Why is it that when somebody disagrees with the majority they are deemed to be a troll?

 

I, along with many many others fully agree with PIP - it should have happened years ago.

What is this, you are only allowed to post if that post is all about keeping the status quo and allowing people to claim as much as they can?

 

I can see the two sides to Welfare Reform - you appear to only see one side - yours!

 

And as for making this a personal issue, could I ask how many attempts you had to make to be awarded ESA? Maybe my single attempt which resulted in being put in the Support Group for 3 years more than qualifies me to comment on issues surrounding the DWP and the Welfare Reform Act. By the way one attempt only for DLA, no Tribunal - awarded HRM & MRC indefinitely on medical evidence only!!!!

Edited October 25, 2013 by bedofweeds

[bedofweeds]

As far as bedofweeds stating there is no test for a stiff neck, what about MRI and CT scans, which found out that I have osteoporosis and four collapsing vertebrae which have managed to trap my ulnar nerve - so there ARE tests out there and should be carried out by ATOS to establish whether or not GPs are referring people properly (in most cases they are NOT).

 

As far as persistent trolls on this forum goes, the site team usually do a very good job of moderating them.

 

I beg to disagree with you. Yes scans can and do prove injuries. But there are many cases where they don't yet people complain of the symptoms with no evidence to back them up. I could once again cite ME CFS, there are no tests that can prove that they exist, if they actually do.

 

Then we have the scans that do show an injury but cannot actually prove to what extent the true pain level is. Amongst my many problems, I have a damaged lower back (sports injury 30 years ago) Yes it aches, but it would be so easy for me to exaggerate the level of pain as it can never be determined medically nor can the level of mobility be properly assessed. The consultants would say that the level of disability is consistent with the injury but how much of that is true and how much of it is not?

 

Hence why PIP is better placed to assess this as opposed to a consultant and a GP being told by the patient that they are suffering more than is true. How many claimants do actually exaggerate?

 

Having said all of that I still will argue that 20 metres is a far better distance to find the most serious cases, as the higher the figure goes the more people will become eligible - something that this country can no longer afford.

Edited October 25, 2013 by bedofweeds

[RaeUK]

... Why is it that when somebody disagrees with the majority they are deemed to be a troll? ...

Oh it's not that, m'dear, far from it. People can, and often do, disagree with the majority and never get labelled 'troll'. But you're cut from a different cloth. There are several factors which identify you. To be honest, you could post under another guise praising the anti-cuts movement to the heavens, bemoaning the changes to DLA etc and you would still be clearly identifiable.

 

Pitcher: It's not spare but would be willingly given up for such a worthy cause!

[mr_mastiff]

Oh it's not that, m'dear, far from it. People can, and often do, disagree with the majority and never get labelled 'troll'. But you're cut from a different cloth. There are several factors which identify you. To be honest, you could post under another guise praising the anti-cuts movement to the heavens, bemoaning the changes to DLA etc and you would still be clearly identifiable.

 

Pitcher: It's not spare but would be willingly given up for such a worthy cause!

 

I personally am against a Troll Tax, voluntary or not:lol:

[fightingback99]

I'm glad bedofweeds/trolls/hensteeth/delia/whatever is finally getting the comments he/she deserves. But, crikey chaps, isn't there something you can do about repetitive trolls? Other vbulletin forums can isolate at ISP level ...

(Serious question. If it's just about money then yell. I'd happily bung in a tenner to a fund to get rid of trolls. This site is about helping people. Not helping some inadequate masturbate furiously at the thought of hampering others)

 

MSE where he's very active under several aliases has been unable to get rid of him by blocking ISP's. Seem to remember him saying on a thread when he was outed yet again, he's found way round the ISP's. Whether that was another of his idle boast or not I've no idea. You can be sure he's got more than 1 alias set up on here . He's got a couple of aliases on MSE and sometimes argues with himself on the same thread!

[bedofweeds]

Oh it's not that, m'dear, far from it. People can, and often do, disagree with the majority and never get labelled 'troll'. But you're cut from a different cloth. There are several factors which identify you. To be honest, you could post under another guise praising the anti-cuts movement to the heavens, bemoaning the changes to DLA etc and you would still be clearly identifiable.

 

Pitcher: It's not spare but would be willingly given up for such a worthy cause!

 

And your reply as to your experience/qualifications as evidenced by your ESA/DLA claims are still awaited?

 

You see some are more qualified to pass comment on the Welfare Reform given the awards made without recourse to the Tribunal or multi applications.

[antone]

Oh for heaven's sake, I've had enough.