Ingeus / Work Programme

[Inspector71]

Hi All

 

I have been unemployed for a year now and have been referred to Ingeus. I would be grateful to anyone who can advise me what to expect from them in the early stages and what my own rights are.

 

What documents will they try to make me sign and do I have to sign them? Can they compel me to do unpaid work/mandatory work experience or does that only apply to those unemployed longer than two years.

 

I hope I don't come across as a layabout. I'm actively looking for full-time paid employment and if Ingeus can provide me with access to employers/vacancies unavailable through other channels then great. It's just that I have serious doubts about this due to past experience with another so called 'provider' in 2011 who didn't actually provide me with anything and then took credit (and payment, I assume) when I eventually found a job on my own.

 

During my time under the wing of that illustrious organisation I was sent for MWA or whatever they were calling it back then. The location and 6 am start time made the use of public transport impossible so I travelled by (borrowed) car. It actually cost me £10 to £15 per week in fuel as the allowance given didn't cover it. The company used me for unloading lorries and other general labour for a month before moving on to the next poor sod. Why bother paying anyone when there is unlimited free labour available?

 

I've no intention of subjecting myself to this or any other form of humiliation that may have been dreamed up since my last experience. I'm more than proficient at searching and applying for jobs and have folders full of paperwork to back this up. I know that the only reason I am still unemployed is that I'm competing with so many other applicants for every job.

 

Anyway, enough whinging from me. Can anyone tell me what to expect?

 

Thanks in advance

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

We have a few threads about Ingeus. I think it would help you if you had a read about other people's experiences. If you're having trouble finding them, please let us know and we can post a couple of links for you.

 

My best, HB

[jasta11]

Hi Inspector

 

Have a look through the 'Ingeus' thread on here - I'm afraid it isn't positive experiences. Also, read up on the DWP guidelines towards the Work Program, as if you don't know these, Ingeus will have you doing all sorts of things they're not allowed to - like phoning you up to make you come in the next day (which violates DWP guidelines on two counts; they can't issue mandatory appointments by telephone, only letter and they must allow 2 working days for you to receive it. These are the things you need to know - and once they know you know them, they'll tread more carefully. Link to the DWP guidelines is here;

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/supplying-dwp/what-we-buy/welfare-to-work-services/provider-guidance/work-programme-provider.shtml

 

Always remember that Ingeus - and all WP's - aren't charities; they're in business to make money from their commodities (and that's us).

Edited October 22, 2013 by jasta11

[Mr.P]

At your first meeting, you need only to take the appointment letter to confirm your identity. You are under no legal obligation to provide a telephone number or email address. You can not be forced to sign any documents (indeed, it is recommended that you reject the data consent form).

 

Travel expenses must be refunded in full and without any conditionality attached beyond producing a valid bus/train/taxi receipt. If you use your own vehicle, a mileage allowance of 25p per mile is the figure set down by the DWP - Use public transport rather than admit you have a car.

 

You should record all meetings and demand copies of all paperwork - WP providers are noted for their creative meeting notes typed up after the event and general record keeping varies from poor through to nonexistent.

 

As a result of previous "programmes", I now insist that all government employees and subcontractors address me as Sir - This reinforces the point that they are there as public servants.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Mr.P

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Hi All

 

I have been unemployed for a year now and have been referred to Ingeus. I would be grateful to anyone who can advise me what to expect from them in the early stages and what my own rights are.

 

What documents will they try to make me sign and do I have to sign them? Can they compel me to do unpaid work/mandatory work experience or does that only apply to those unemployed longer than two years.

 

I hope I don't come across as a layabout. I'm actively looking for full-time paid employment and if Ingeus can provide me with access to employers/vacancies unavailable through other channels then great. It's just that I have serious doubts about this due to past experience with another so called 'provider' in 2011 who didn't actually provide me with anything and then took credit (and payment, I assume) when I eventually found a job on my own.

 

During my time under the wing of that illustrious organisation I was sent for MWA or whatever they were calling it back then. The location and 6 am start time made the use of public transport impossible so I travelled by (borrowed) car. It actually cost me £10 to £15 per week in fuel as the allowance given didn't cover it. The company used me for unloading lorries and other general labour for a month before moving on to the next poor sod. Why bother paying anyone when there is unlimited free labour available?

 

I've no intention of subjecting myself to this or any other form of humiliation that may have been dreamed up since my last experience. I'm more than proficient at searching and applying for jobs and have folders full of paperwork to back this up. I know that the only reason I am still unemployed is that I'm competing with so many other applicants for every job.

 

Anyway, enough whinging from me. Can anyone tell me what to expect?

 

Thanks in advance

The key issue is that the staff that you will meet within Ingeus are not Professionals, are unlikely to have been trained (or employed) as Professional Careers Advisers, and are less qualified than Front Line Advisers within Job Centre Plus. In the majority of cases, they will have left their previous role for a variety of reasons, and may have only worked in a mere Sales Support role rather than in a substantive capacity.

 

As others have suggested, you are within your rights not to sign any documentation, including the Data Protection Waiver.

 

Good Luck... and remember that you will always have access to good advice from this source.

[Inspector71]

Hi All

 

Thankyou very much for the advice. I won't be signing any documents at Ingeus. Do I have to inform the advisor if I intend to record the meeting?

 

I'm very glad that this forum exists. It's a superb resource for those in need of help and advice.

 

Thanks again

[osdset]

I'm very glad that this forum exists.

I bet the providers aren't.

[Mr.P]

Do I have to inform the advisor if I intend to record the meeting ?

 

The DWP has provided this following guidance:

There is currently no Work Programme provider guidance available specifically outlining the process providers must follow if a participant wishes to record their interactions with their provider. [...]

We would advise if a participant wishes to record their interactions with a provider, they should request this in advance, so that where possible appropriate arrangements, such as finding a private room, can be made.

If you ask for permission, it most likelyhood, the request would be refused. The "adviser" may try to claim a breach of the Data Protection Act or threaten a sanction - Wrong on both counts.

 

As a private individual, you are only collecting data about yourself for your own personal records. As such, the DPA makes allowances for this and does not require you to be registered as a "data controller". The other piece of legislation to be aware of is the Regulation of Investigative Powers - This also allows a private individual to make recordings, either openly or covertly, for purpose of personal record keeping.

 

What is not asked for can not be refused.

[Inspector71]

I feel much more confident about the first meeting now. I had considered just signing off JSA and not turning up at Ingeus. I imagine the advisor will become adversarial when they don't get their own way and try to place me in unpaid work as soon as possible by way of retaliation. I'm not prepared to carry out any unpaid work so I wonder how long I can go before being sanctioned.

 

Once again many thanks everyone.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

I feel much more confident about the first meeting now. I had considered just signing off JSA and not turning up at Ingeus. I imagine the advisor will become adversarial when they don't get their own way and try to place me in unpaid work as soon as possible by way of retaliation. I'm not prepared to carry out any unpaid work so I wonder how long I can go before being sanctioned.

 

Once again many thanks everyone.

There is no guarantee that a Welfare To Work Clerk will insist that you do Unpaid Work -and even if they do try, you can refer to the DWP Provider Guidance, and courteously point out that any Unpaid Work must not be as a substitute for existing staff or at the expense of recruiting someone from the open market - which broadly describes any role within any business.

[jasta11]

Good luck with Ingeus - you may actually get a decent advisor who knows the guidelines and sticks to them (but don't bank on it).

 

Another bit of info is that you don't have to show Ingeus evidence of your jobsearching. They're very big on you filling in job logs, etc but you don't have to show them anything, as this response from DWP Central to a Freedom Of Information request states. Extract below;

 

'A Work Programme provider may ask you to provide evidence of your job search as part of their support they give you but they cannot

mandate you to provide it and you will not be sanctioned if you do not provide it.'

 

Full document is here, scroll down the page and you'll see the DWP reply. The Whatdotheyknow site is great for keeping up to date with regulations - pity the Jobcentre staff and Work Providers don't read it too. As long as you're satisfying the DWP's requirements via your Jobseekers Agreement. that's all that counts. Ingeus answer to the DWP, not the other way round.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/information_regarding_work_progr#incoming-434469

[Mr.P]

What is not asked for can not be refused.

 

Stumbled across this: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/covert_recording

 

Claimants can be mandated to maintain standards of good behaviour as part of their participation in a programme. If a Work Programme provider raised a sanction doubt on the basis that a claimant had covertly recorded them, and that they believed that this breached standards of good behaviour, then the decision maker would decide whether or not a sanction should be applied on the basis of the guidance, and the circumstances of the individual case.

 

On that basis, your call if you wish to use covert means to record meetings. In the past when I had dealings with A4e, I would place the recording device on the desk (encased in a protective sleeve) and decline to confirm if it was turned on if/when asked. Hardly "covert", but then I did have multiple devices...

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Good luck with Ingeus - you may actually get a decent advisor who knows the guidelines and sticks to them (but don't bank on it).

 

Another bit of info is that you don't have to show Ingeus evidence of your jobsearching. They're very big on you filling in job logs, etc but you don't have to show them anything, as this response from DWP Central to a Freedom Of Information request states. Extract below;

 

'A Work Programme provider may ask you to provide evidence of your job search as part of their support they give you but they cannot

mandate you to provide it and you will not be sanctioned if you do not provide it.'

 

Full document is here, scroll down the page and you'll see the DWP reply. The Whatdotheyknow site is great for keeping up to date with regulations - pity the Jobcentre staff and Work Providers don't read it too. As long as you're satisfying the DWP's requirements via your Jobseekers Agreement. that's all that counts. Ingeus answer to the DWP, not the other way round.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/information_regarding_work_progr#incoming-434469

I normally provided the same job log which I provided to Job Centre Plus when signing on - with rudimentary information on the jobs that I applied for on a daily basis, and no contact information. This avoids the need to provide confidential information, prevent some Welfare To Work Clerk approaching any number of employers to discuss your application,leading to possible accusations of canvassing and automatic termination of your job application, and reduces the likelihood that a vindictive Welfare To Work Jobsworth Clerk will raise a Sanction Doubt on your claim.

[Perseus1]

Hi All

 

I have been unemployed for a year now and have been referred to Ingeus. I would be grateful to anyone who can advise me what to expect from them in the early stages and what my own rights are.

 

What documents will they try to make me sign and do I have to sign them? Can they compel me to do unpaid work/mandatory work experience or does that only apply to those unemployed longer than two years.

 

I hope I don't come across as a layabout. I'm actively looking for full-time paid employment and if Ingeus can provide me with access to employers/vacancies unavailable through other channels then great. It's just that I have serious doubts about this due to past experience with another so called 'provider' in 2011 who didn't actually provide me with anything and then took credit (and payment, I assume) when I eventually found a job on my own.

 

During my time under the wing of that illustrious organisation I was sent for MWA or whatever they were calling it back then. The location and 6 am start time made the use of public transport impossible so I travelled by (borrowed) car. It actually cost me £10 to £15 per week in fuel as the allowance given didn't cover it. The company used me for unloading lorries and other general labour for a month before moving on to the next poor sod. Why bother paying anyone when there is unlimited free labour available?

 

I've no intention of subjecting myself to this or any other form of humiliation that may have been dreamed up since my last experience. I'm more than proficient at searching and applying for jobs and have folders full of paperwork to back this up. I know that the only reason I am still unemployed is that I'm competing with so many other applicants for every job.

 

Anyway, enough whinging from me. Can anyone tell me what to expect?

 

Thanks in advance

 

A good post. I am in the same position and I have been on the Work Programmer for two months.

 

I have read a lot of bad/unhelpful advice.

 

From my experience it is recommended that you make some attempt to get on on the grounds that you do know everything and that may be able to help with that little bit of extra information.

 

Their advisors are just that, advisors rather than brokers although the agency acts as a broker (they say).

 

Do not expect your advisor to be an experienced adviser. They may not be suited and the guidance courses are not necessary for them to get their job. They may not be very good advisors and may naturally browbeat their clients.

 

ATOS gave me nil points but I did not have any complaints because that means I do not lie if I say I am fit instead of disabled on job applications. I do not class incapacitated as disabled if I am on JSA.

 

I do not trust by adviser not to get things wrong and I am still worried about sanctions. If you miss a signing on claim illness for a cold first time around.

 

Arrive at the Work Programme well before the appointment to avoid being late. You can always use their computers. Don't miss the appointment.

 

My adviser wanted me to evidence job search activities which meant applying for five jobs a week. Signed agreement. Whether I actually comply is debatable. This means I apply for unsuitable jobs. This might waste their time, but something may turn up inadvertently. I verbally agreed to attempt to meet this mandate. I did not argue the toss.

 

I would add I do not trust my adviser or like him at all. Therefore, beware in case he pulls a fast one. He could make life difficult if he wants.

 

For training courses and updating skills to fill job requirements, it is up to the client to make his own arrangements.

 

They seem a bit mean with information. e.g when my computer broke down, I was not informed about alternatives. I had to find out myself. JSA claimants can use the library for free and get a deduction on a new computer (one for £100).

 

My adviser does not communicate outside the fortnightly interview.

 

He does not appear to have any information from the Job Centre. e.g. health conditions. I am not sure that the Job Centre has this, only the DWP.

 

It appears that in the over 59 age group there is a 5% chance of getting a job and a 3% chance of getting sanctioned, the latter one being worrying.

 

The adviser may try to persuade you to apply for unsuitable jobs or make incomprehensible actions.

 

They were able to give advice on modern methods of compiling CVs. CV Library is recommended for jobs. JOBSearch is poor.

 

In their defence, they deal with a mixture of clients, many of them on release from prison. However, the main factor appears to be their personalities and lack of training and many will not have the aptitude for an advisory role. This can be demotivating and have the opposite effect, but this is could be because of personality clashes.

 

Career Advice may be a better route to go down for advice?

Edited October 26, 2013 by Perseus1

[joeski]

misery and depression is what you can expect from ingeus, you go in feeling small and come out feeling even smaller thanks to the rude staff who think becuase your unemployed they are allowed to treat you like dirt. absolutely disgusting

[Perseus1]

misery and depression is what you can expect from ingeus, you go in feeling small and come out feeling even smaller thanks to the rude staff who think becuase your unemployed they are allowed to treat you like dirt. absolutely disgusting

 

They tend to browbeat their victims/clients.

 

The questions asked on this forum are/were designed how to deal with bullies who have no adviser skills.

 

Clarification of the rights and responsibilities needed.

 

Keep all your correspondence for the appeal against sanctions.

 

Signing forms have dates on them. This is the tricky bit, how to avoid signing forms without being sanctioned.

 

I think I will be sanctioned. I can't see how I can comply with following up on jobs applied for. I can't see the point either.

 

Micro-managing with incomprehensible instructions is a recognised way of getting rid of unwanted employees. Standard bullying technique.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Perseus1

[Charlotte_Henderson]

I'm actively looking for full-time paid employment and if Ingeus can provide me with access to employers/vacancies unavailable through other channels then great. It's just that I have serious doubts about this due to past experience with another so called 'provider' in 2011 who didn't actually provide me with anything and then took credit (and payment, I assume) when I eventually found a job on my own.

 

Ingeus are pretty useless at providing any help for job seekers, yet they are more than happy to collect their bonus when you sign off cos you have found a job off your own bat.

[Charlotte_Henderson]

misery and depression is what you can expect from ingeus, you go in feeling small and come out feeling even smaller thanks to the rude staff who think becuase your unemployed they are allowed to treat you like dirt. absolutely disgusting

 

Couldn't of said it better myself

[Stanna1]

Hi All,

Just read your thoughts on Ingeus which I absolutely agree with. The advisors which I have encountered have been, unable too supply any form of USEFUL advice within the two months I have been attending.

The so called advisors are poorly trained, completely inexperienced and as far as I can see are just looking at keeping their own jobs.

[Perseus1]

I found some of their advice useful and some of it a hindrance.

 

Modern CVs was useful although I had to do it with help from elsewhere (Careers Advice). I think it is best to admit that they may be poor advisers but they usually have recruitment experience and know what employers want.

 

It takes time to get up to speed of what is required. I am not sure I am healthy enough to comply after trying for three months for many of the jobs. But job requirements are much the same nowadays.

[Stanna1]

Hi Perseus1

I agree with what you say, However these guys are being paid too supply the most upto date info on everything "Employment Wise".

This is the problem with this system of providers.

The adviser I spoke too was bragging he was on 25K a year? Surely for this wage he could at least attempt too give the correct info?

On my first interview with him he actually told me that. as I am an Engineer he would be unlikely too find me work, but the government have made it a stipulation that I attend a Work Program as a matter of course!!

[Perseus1]

Hi Perseus1

I agree with what you say, However these guys are being paid too supply the most upto date info on everything "Employment Wise".

This is the problem with this system of providers.

The adviser I spoke too was bragging he was on 25K a year? Surely for this wage he could at least attempt too give the correct info?

On my first interview with him he actually told me that. as I am an Engineer he would be unlikely too find me work, but the government have made it a stipulation that I attend a Work Program as a matter of course!!

 

Try Babcock Recruitment Agency for jobs more akin to Engineers. If you are anything like me, the world has moved on, updated software etc.

 

Dumbing down for lesser work is very difficult if not impossible. So is change of career (not such a bad idea as all that) and I think there should be a separate programme for the over 50s. I think most WP Advisors are in the wage bracket £19 K to £23K a year, unless they are the Manager of the agency.

 

Outside of the south coast black spot these Advisor jobs are being advertised. Probably not in other black spots as well.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Perseus1

[bobsleigh]

Is there anything more recent available about the legality of covert recording? The link from this post appears to a little inconclusive. If they don't know about a recording device, would you have to be honest with them if they asked if you had one - and if not, would it later be a problem if you said no but wanted to use the recording against them later for something? Would you still be able to record Ingeus meetings even if they found out and didn't want you to? Thanks in advance.

 

Stumbled across this: (see original post for link)

 

On that basis, your call if you wish to use covert means to record meetings. In the past when I had dealings with A4e, I would place the recording device on the desk (encased in a protective sleeve) and decline to confirm if it was turned on if/when asked. Hardly "covert", but then I did have multiple devices...

[Mr.P]

You are perfectly entitled to record meetings as part of personal record keeping - There is nothing a WP provider can do to stop you bar preventing you from entering the premises. If they ask "do you have a recording device", evade the question.

 

You do not have to tell them that you are recording, and if you ever needed to use the recordings as evidence, a transcript is acceptable - A short note stating that "actual recording can be produced as directed by a judge" could be added.