PCN from LONDON PARKING SOLUTIONS

[Mollierose8]

Is there any chance I can send a copy of this letter to you. Perhaps you could send your address to my email at (edited). The letter was addressed to me as RK. One sentence in the letter is "If you were not the driver at the time, please tell us who was driving.

Edited December 23, 2013 by ploddertom
Removed email address

[Homer67]

Post the letter having first removed all personal details using MS paint or similar. There are instructions in the sticky threads or DX will be along to tell you how shortly...

[Mollierose8]

Thank you Homer67 , hopefully Ericsbrother will get back to me, I will do what you say if I knew what MS paint was, sticky threads or DX ? I'm such a blue rinse at times

[dx100uk]

**you can post up images/letters by this method immediately..you don't need 10 posts**

.

set your default scan page size to A4 less than 300DPI [150 will do]

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets - as a picture[jpg] file

don't forget you can use a mobile phone or a digital camera too!!

'

BUT......

ENSURE: remove all pers info inc. barcodes etc

but leave all monetary figures and dates.

.

************************* ************************* *******

{DO NOT USE A BIRO OR PEN OR USE SEE THRU TAPE OR LABELS]

************************* ************************* ***********

.

DO IT IN MSPAINT.EXE or any photo editing program

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites ...

http://freejpgtopdf.com/

..

if you have multiple scans/pics

put them in a word doc FIRST and convert that to PDF

or http://www.freepdfconvert.com/

or

use www.pdfmerge.com

 

convert existing PC files to PDF [office has an installable print to PDF option]

..

it would be better to upload a multipage pdf if

you have many images too rather than many single pdfs

.

or if you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

or use word and save as pdf

try and logically name your file so people know what it is.

though dont use full bank names or CAG in the title

i'e Default notice DD-mm-yyyy TSB

.

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

...

YOU DONT have to put a link to the attachment in the msg box..just upload it ..job done

.

dx

[ericsbrother]

Dx is a person who is one of the site administrators.

 

they sent you a letter as they didnt get a response from the driver of the vehicle, which they are entitled to do.

 

You can appeal this charge, initially to them but do so only as the keeper of the vehicle.

 

They will probably reject your appeal but should give you a POPLA reference number.

 

If they dont their actions are limited to pursuing the driver and not the RK so it is important to make sure of the capacity in which all correspondence is addressed.

 

Your appeal should simply state that no loss has been caused to the company by the actions of the driver of the vehicle and that claiming a charge for the driver leaving the premises is contrary to an appeal court's determination and therefore their claim is a penalty and not an estimate of their liquidated losses.

 

they will probably tell you that they dont accept this as a reason for an appeal and should then give you the POPLA ref code.

(why would they uphold your appeal when their entire business model is based on telling lies to people)

[Mollierose8]

Thanks for that Ericsbrother.....I shall word just like that...in writing rather than email....like having a bit of paper to peruse.

 

Here's what I have written but not posted yet in case you think I should refine it.

 

" PCN dated ..... PCN Notice no:.....

 

Dear Sir

 

I am appealing this charge as keeper of the vehicle. No loss has been caused to London Parking Solutions by the actions of the driver of the vehicle and that claiming a charge for the driver leaving the premises is contrary to an appeal court's determination and therefore your claim is a penalty and not an estimate of your liquidated losses. Furthermore, how is it supposed to be known about the discount period if the driver doesn't say about the ticket.

 

Yours Sincerely"

 

Almost verbatim to yours but sounds so good I used it .... Thank you.

[ericsbrother]

That will be fine as it is going to the parking co and they are very unlikely to agree to a reduction in income just because you are right so just wait for teh rejection letter and the POPLA ref number. Use a slightly different approach to them when you get it, the wording is available in other posts here and people will tell you what you say according to the response of LPS

[Mollierose8]

Hello there Ericsbrother.....had a reply sent by 2nd class post dated 8th January (rec'd 10th) but no POPLA no. I'm a fast typist (the old fashioned kind....I use all ten fingers without looking!) I quote their letter below:-

 

"With reference to your letter in which you refer to the loss suffered by our client London Parking Solutions, we confirm that we are not pursuing a penalty but a fixed Parking Charge which is not for any damages or perceived financial loss suffered by the land owner or as a result of simple trespass. The fixed Parking Charge follows the set of contractual principles as defined with the case of Arthur-v-Anker (1996) 2 WLR 602 which was discussed in the HMRC matter referred to above. By utilising the criteria set out in the case above, we confirm that the fixed parking charge relates to costs incurred but not limited to the costs and charges that are set out below and calculated by the company's accountants when assessing how the charge is made. These are as follows;

 

a) British Parking Assc.membership fees; b) approved Operator Scheme membership fees; c) BPA annual audit fees; d) Costs for the signage including costs for designing, erecting and maintaining the signage on site; e) Employer public liability insurance; f) Employee insurance; g) Vehicle maintenance costs; h) Office rates and rent; i) Administration costs; j) Wages, uniforms; radio equpment and computer system. k) costs for recovery of unpaid charges.

 

You will appreciate that the above is not an exhaustive list but a general overview of the necessary costs that are expended to ensure that the car park is operated and maintained correctly. It is not the fact that you have overstayed your welcome for a period of time but a genuine pre-estimate of the loss incurred to process and proceed with a Parking Charge Notice. We trust that the above clarifies this and answers the points that uyou have raised in your previous emails. However, if there is any other matter upon which we can assist you then please let us know.

 

In response to your second point regarding the discounted period, as a company we cannot be held accountable for you missing the reduced amount. With that being said this is a dispute that you will need to take up with the driver and not us. Please advise the driver to contact us to deal with the matter accordingly or provide their full name and serviceable address in order for us to transfer liability to the responsible party. Please note that under schedule 4 ot the Protection of Freedoms Act it allows the landowner to pursue the Registered Keep of a vehicle for unpaid Parking Charge Notices if the Registered Keeper refuses or is unable to identify the driver at the time of the Parking Charge was incurred.. This is known as Keeper Liability. Should no valid representation or payment be forthcoming you account will be referred to our Appointed Debit Recovery Agency on 14th January 2014 and any associated costs to recover this outstanding balance will be added to this balance."

 

They refer to emails.....I have not sent any emails. What now.....

 

I've only got until the 14th so they say.....hope to get help from you all tomorrow.....

[f16]

Wait for the notice to keeper/owner. It will come in the post. I think I'm right in saying it has to reach you in 56 days from when you got the one on the car. If it's late they will lose at appeal.

If it arrives on time the members here at CAG will formulate your appeal process. I got one of these and received tons of help from members here and I'm going to appeal.

There is no way I'm paying. It's a stupid amount of money.

[dx100uk]

that letter is a load of ole bunkum!!

 

where did they dream that up from...

 

 

if or if not you parked there

 

they still would have had those costs..

 

... they are NOT costs that are a direct result of you doing or not doing something.

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

In other words, they are claiming their establishment costs. I bet their accountants have a headache. You dont have until the 14th, they havent followed the procedure they need to follow yet so dont give them a bean and wait until you get the notice to keeper and then come back here for what to say and do next. They should have given you a POPLA ref number if they are rejesting your appeal as driver but there again, you havent said you were the driver so wait for the correct demand and tell us when it arrives on your doormat. Too soon and they can be brushed off on a technicality and too late they get the same treatment. You have read the threads here so you must have an idea of the ploys they use to get you to pay up.

Now leave your pen alone and make them waste their money

[f16]

Sorry about the blank above, I tried to edit it and it did not work. As I understand it they have to give you a POPLA no. or they have broken the rules.

[Mollierose8]

But I've had that Notice to Keeper and I appealed as above dated 27th December with the help of ericsbrother. They have now sent an answer to this appeal, which I have typed out in full (as above). They have not given me a POPLA no. So I think I have to request this now.

[f16]

I think Mollierose8 said in #29 that he had the notice to keeper, or did I misunderstand something?

[Mollierose8]

Yes, I've had it as repeated in #44

[esmerobbo]

Write back and ask for a POPLA code and include this from a recent POPLA decision!

 

The operator submits that the amount of the parking charge is legally enforceable on the following three grounds;

 

1. That there is a strong commercial justification for the charge,

 

2. That there is ample case law to suggest that the value of such a parking charge is not punitive and,

 

3. That the charge is a genuine pre- estimate of loss.

 

The operator has cited case law to find that the charge is commercially

justifiable and that the charge cannot be considered a penalty. The operator submits that the private management of car parks is commercially necessary for landholders. The operator further submits that landholders have a right to

commercially manage their private land as they see fit to allow motorists to

use the land for parking under certain terms and conditions. The operator states that this is commercially necessary as the landholder needs to manage

their land in order to ensure that their business can run successfully.

It seems that the courts have accepted a third category of liquidated damages, a sum which is commercially justified – in cases where the sum is

neither a penalty nor is it strictly a genuine pre-estimate of loss – where the Operator has substantiated the loss incurred, or the loss that might reasonably

be incurred, by the breach. However, I do not accept the Operator’s submission that the inclusion of costs which in reality amount to the general

business costs incurred for the provision of their car park management services is commercially justified. I am not minded to accept that the charge

is justified commercially and so must be shown to be a genuine pre-estimate of loss in order to be enforceable against the Appellant.

I find that the whole business model of an operator in respect of a particular car park operation cannot in itself amount to commercial justification.

The operator has cited case law in order to submit that the value of the parking charge is reasonable and not punitive. I find that each case is

different on its facts and it is not possible for me to allow an appeal based on these short summaries.

The operator submits that that the pre-estimate of loss will depend on the losses to themselves and the landholder. The operator submits that this will vary on the time of the day, the day of the week and even upon the weather. The operator submits that the losses incurred by them include, but re not restricted to:

 

* Erection and maintenance of the signage

 

* Installation

 

* Monitoring and maintenance of the automatic number plate

 

recognition (ANPR) systems

 

* Employment of office based administrative staff

 

* Membership and other fees required to manage the business

 

effectively including those paid to the BPA, DVLA and ICO, general

 

costs including stationary, postage etc.

 

The Operator has produced a list of costs; however, a substantial proportion of these appear to be general operational costs, and not losses consequential to the Appellant’s breach. The aim of damages for breach of contract is to put the parties in the position they would have been in had the contract been performed. Accordingly, the Operator cannot include in its pre-estimate of loss costs which are not in fact contractual losses, but the costs of running its business and which would have been incurred irrespective of the Appellant’s conduct and not as a result of the Appellant’s breach.

 

Considering carefully, all the evidence before me, I find that, the parking charge sought is a sum by way of damages. I also find that the damages sought on this particular occasion do not amount to a genuine pre- estimate of loss or fall within commercial justification.

 

Accordingly, this appeal must be allowed.

 

Marina Kapour

 

Assessor

 

Let them waste £27 plus VAT for an appeal they will lose!

Edited January 13, 2014 by esmerobbo

[f16]

Millierose8, do what esmerbbo has said. Also state that the POPLA no. should have been given to you when your original letter of appeal was refused.

Remember you are still replying as The Keeper not The Driver.

After doing that make a list in date order when you got the paper work received so far because as ericksbrother said #42 LPS may have "timed" themselves out. Post the list on here and other members will assist.

[Mollierose8]

f16 Date of PCN 09.10.2013

......Notice to Parking Registered Keeper from LPS 17.12.2013

...... (I then sent appeal as RK)

...... They replied 08.01.2014 (Recd 10/01/2014)

 

I shall now reply with a copy of #47 and your #48 (re POPLA no)

 

Will they really pass it on to their Debt Collection Agency tomorrow the 14th? as stated in their letter of the 8th.

[f16]

If they pass it to debt collector, when contacted you tell them the matter is in dispute (which it is) and refer them back to their client PSL. Keep copies of everything.

Debt collectors can be told to "Get lost". Don't take any truck from them. You will be OK. LPS have messed this up by not giving a POPLA no. on original appeal

 

I think they are over the time limit. 09/10/13--17/12/13. I make that 69 days. Someone with better knowledge than me will check that later

 

I think time allowed for them is 56 days .Don't put that in your letter to LPS..... They will reject your appeal #47 but have to issue a POPLA no. That has just cost them £27.50.

Then you appeal to POPLA with #47 and oh by the way it's timed out by 13 days

[Mollierose8]

Ok sent off (got proof of postage) and attached #47.

[Mollierose8]

Rec'd reply dated 16 Jan 2014...passed on to a company called Roxburghe (UK) Ltd (same address as LPS Ltd) Fine has now gone up to £160!! Here is their latest missive:_

 

We have been instructed by the above named client who has informed us that a PARKING CHARGE NOTICE ("pcn") was issued to the above-mentioned vehicle and the driver should have paid it. Our client has advised that they have not yet received payment, any valid reason for non-payment, or any dispute. Your data has been released by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (under Regulation 27(1)(E) of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002*) and their records indicate that you were the registered keeper of the vehicle at the relevant date and time. In line with the Terms and Conditions of parking at the above site, recovery and administration charges have been incurred which are included in the Total Amount Due above and the driver is responsible for payment. If you were not the driver at the time, please contact us and tell us was driving your vehicle at the time of the unauthorised parking event above.

 

Still no POPLA no I requested. What now?????????

[Homer67]

It's not a fine! Roxburgh are a toothless debt collector so ignore them or send one letter back stating any alleged debt is denied and the PPC ticket has been appealed and is disputed, refer to your client - then enter no further correspondence with Roxburgh

[f16]

Hi, Mollierose8 If I was you; I would copy their letter, highlight "any reason for non- payment or any dispute" Then attach copy of your appeal letter.

Then write a covering letter stating you have appealed and they did not follow correct procedure and issue a POPLA code.

In addition from when the DRIVER received the PCN on the car you had 56 days to contact the keeper (me). you took 69 days.

I expect you to now send a letter cancelling this "invoice.

In the meantime I will be reporting your actions to the BPA and DVLA.

 

 

Wait for ericsbrother for his advice. He is very clever with a lot of good advice

[renegadeimp]

Rx has already been railed in court about this. Just tell them to bog off.

[Mollierose8]

OK Everybody but will await Ericsbrother for his input ... feeling better now.