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    • I've inserted their poc re:your.. 1 ..they did send 2 paploc's  3. neither the agreement nor default is mentioned in their 2.        
    • Hi Guys, i read a fair few threads and saw a lot of similar templates being used. i liked this one below and although i could elaborate on certain things (they ignored my CCA and sent 2 PAPs etc etc) , am i right in that at this stage keep it short? If thats the case i cant see what i need to add/change about this one   1)   the defendant entered into a consumer credit act 1974 regulated agreements vanquis under account reference xxxxxxx 2)   The defendant failed to maintain the required payment, arrears began to accrue 3)   The agreement was later assigned to the claimant on 29 September 2017 and notice given to the defendant 4)   Despite repeated requests for payment, the sum of 2247.91 remains due outstanding And the claimant claims a)The said sum of £2247.91 b)The interest pursuant to S 69 county courts act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum from the date of issue, accruing at a daily rate of £xxxx, but limited to one year,  being £xxxx c)Costs   Defence:   The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim vague and are generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.   1. The Claimant has not complied with paragraph 3 of the PAPDC ( Pre Action Protocol) Failed to serve a letter of claim pre claim pursuant to PAPDC changes of the 1st October 2017.It is respectfully requested that the court take this into consideration pursuant to 7.1 PAPDC.   2. The Claimant claims £2247.91 is owed under a regulated consumer credit account under reference xxxxxxx. I do not recall the precise details or agreement and have sought verification from the claimant and the claimants solicitor by way of a CPR 31.14 and section 78 request who are yet to fully comply.   3. Paragraph 2 is denied. I am unable to recall the precise details of the alleged agreement or any default notice served in breach of any defaulted payments. 4. Paragraph 3 is denied.The Defendant contends that no notice of assignment pursuant to s.136 of the Law of Property Act & s.82 A of the CCA1974 has ever been served by the Claimant as alleged or at all.   5. It is therefore denied with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant, the Claimant has failed to provide any evidence of assignment/balance/breach requested by CPR 31. 14, therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to:   (a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement; and (b) show and evidence any cause of action and service of a Default Notice or termination notice; and © show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for; and (d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim;   6. After receiving this claim I requested by way of a CPR 31.14 request and a section 78 request for copies of any documents referred to within the Claimants' particulars to establish what the claim is for. To date they have failed to comply to my CPR 31.14 request and also my section 78 request and remain in default with regards to this request.   7. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.   8. On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974.   9. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.  
    • i understand. Just be aware I am prepared to take some risks 😉
    • Thanks Tnook,   Bear with us while we discuss this behind the scenes - we want you to win just as much as you do but we want to find the right balance between maximising your claim without risking too much in court fees, and in possible court costs awarded to the defendant bank.
    • Tell your son and think on this. He can pay the £160  and have no further worries from them. If he read POFA  Scedule 4 he would find out that if he went to Court and lost which is unlikely on two counts at least [1] they don't do Court and 2] they know they would lose in Court] the most he would be liable to pay them is £100 or whatever the amount on the sign says. He is not liable for the admin charges as that only applies to the driver-perhaps.If he kept his nerve, he would find out that he does not owe them a penny and that applies to the driver as well. But we do need to see the signage at the entrance to the car park and around the car park as well as any T&Cs on the payment meter if there is one. He alone has to work out whether it is worth taking a few photographs to help avoid paying a single penny to these crooks as well as receiving letters threatening him with Court , bailiffs  etc trying to scare him into paying money he does not owe. They know they cannot take him to Court. They know he does not owe them a penny. But they are hoping he does not know so he pays them. If he does decide to pay, tell him to wait as eventually as a last throw of the dice they play Mister Nice Guy and offer a reduction. Great. Whatever he pays them it will be far more than he owes as their original PCN is worthless. Read other threads where our members have been ticketed for not having a permit. [We know so little about the situation that we do not know if he has a permit and forgot to display it. ]
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I had worked at a bar - let's nickname it "Tribe Bar" - as the head doorman for over ten years when in August 2010 a new owner came in - I'll nickname them "City Leisure". There was one director, though his company secretary (who had previously co-directed various companies with him) later came onboard. All the staff were kept on bar me.

Because I worked via a management company, City Leisure assumed I wasn't entitled to any rights, so got someone cheaper in. The first Tribunal was to decide who my employer was at the time of my dismissal. City Leisure didn't show up - but only to buy time. They came up with a cockamamie reason that the judge accepted, and so on to Tribunal two.

Here, it was decided there had indeed been a TUPE transfer. During the third and supposedly final Tribunal - which because of a few cancellations due to the opposition again buying time, didn't take place until March 2012 - City Leisure were found culpable and, a month later, were ordered to pay a total of almost£17,000. The thing is, they were granted leave to appeal on a technical issue,and so a final Tribunal took place over a year later (more time-buying from the opposition), April 2013.

I won outright this time. But here's the problem:they've not paid a penny because they managed to get themselves struck off Companies House. According to my brief, this means I'll have to go down the civil route and "that will cost thousands and won't be worth it". Icontacted Companies House, who told me the law was that City Leisure was supposed to have told me/my brief that they were applying to be struck off before it happened, and also inform them, Companies House, that they were involved in a court case.

They did neither. Apparently, they were struck off October 2011 (the first I heard of it was a letter to my brief from City Leisure in April 2012 saying they had sold the bar - at the time my brief said we should just carry on with the case and see what happens). The 'new' owner of the bar was "Tribe Bar Ltd" - its sole director a RELATIVE of one of City Leisure's directors! Since then, I've checked with licensing.

They tell me that, although Tribe Bar Ltd is according to Company Check still the owner of Tribe Bar, the licensee has gone from being Tribe Bar Ltd to "Nelson Ltd" (again, my nickname), which is owned by - surprise, surprise - one of the directors of City Leisure.

There's further proof that the people from City Leisure continued to, and still do, run/own Tribe Bar, despite their claim to have sold it - not only is one of the directors constantly there running it, but (a) he actually gave an interview online as the company owner past the supposedly sold date, and (b) other companies are registered to City Leisure'sdirectors at Tribe Bar's address.

How annoying that Companies House told me words to the effect of, "We just take people at face value when they want to be struck off, we don't investigate" - thanks Companies House. That ridiculous policy lost me £17,000.

 

Here are my questions:

 

1) When my brief says that it will cost me thousands to take these people to civil court,does he mean mostly in his fees? Can I do this on the cheap myself?

 

2) Since the directors of City Leisure have clearly broken Companies House rules, if I should prove it to them, does this mean City Leisure will be put back on the register? And if so, doesn't this mean that they will have to pay me my money, as though they were never struck off?

 

3) Although the actual decision to award me damages came after the strike off and supposed new company ownership, since all the staff stayed on (and hence another TUPE transfer), isn't Tribe Bar Ltd, the 'new' owner, libel for the £17,000

 

4) What should I do now?

Edited by Conniff

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Go on Companies House direct and download the filings relevant to the winding-up (will cost you £1). What does it say?

 

If there is an insolvency practitioner, get in touch with him. If the company was dissolved through a members' voluntary liquidation, there should be a statutory declaration of solvency attaching a list of assets and liabilities. If the Director(s) swore a false statutory declaration and then moved assets out of the company you may be able to go after them personally.


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Go on Companies House direct and download the filings relevant to the winding-up (will cost you £1). What does it say?

 

If there is an insolvency practitioner, get in touch with him. If the company was dissolved through a members' voluntary liquidation, there should be a statutory declaration of solvency attaching a list of assets and liabilities. If the Director(s) swore a false statutory declaration and then moved assets out of the company you may be able to go after them personally.

 

Many, many, thanks for responding, steampowered!

 

I've downloaded what information there is, as suggested. I haven't yet gone into the second part of your suggestion because, with my being extremely non-technical legal-wise, I want to just take it slow and double-check with you that I've got the relevant information you were speaking of. This is what it reads...

 

Date of incorporation: 25/01/2010

Private Limited Company

Dissolved 13/11/2012

Number of charges: 1 (1 outstanding/ 0 part satisfied/ 0 satisfied)

Key filing date: 31/01

Last accounts made up: 31/01/2012 (total exemption small)

Last return made up to 25/01/2012

[number of main directors appointments is 11]

 

Recent Filing History:

13/11/2012 Final Gazette, dissolved via voluntary strike off

29/10/2012 31/01/12 Total exemption small

31/07/2012 Voluntary strike off suspended

26/06/2012 First gazette notice for voluntary strike off

13/06/2012 Application for striking off

03/03/2012 25/01/12 full list

 

[* Hmm. Since they weren't actually struck off when I was first awarded £17K, even though they had leave to appeal, since they were instructed to pay me a portion of this money immediately, was it a fault of my solicitor that he didn't request this?]

Edited by Hair Bear

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Yes, that's right.

 

Please go to the "order information on this company" link and download a copy of the "Application for striking off" and let me know what it says. Is it a DS01?


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Yes, that's right.

 

Please go to the "order information on this company" link and download a copy of the "Application for striking off" and let me know what it says. Is it a DS01?

 

Yes, it is (sorry for taking so long).

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Your hearing verdict was March 2012. Your award of £17,000 was April 2012. The respondent firm was voluntarily wound up November 2012. Find out which court or insolvency practitioner. Write with proof of debt. If you suspect it was dissolved to avoid paying you, lodge a complaint about the individual directors with a view to disqualification, especially if they have set up a new company to avoid their creditors.

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Your hearing verdict was March 2012. Your award of £17,000 was April 2012. The respondent firm was voluntarily wound up November 2012. Find out which court or insolvency practitioner. Write with proof of debt. If you suspect it was dissolved to avoid paying you, lodge a complaint about the individual directors with a view to disqualification, especially if they have set up a new company to avoid their creditors.

 

Thanks for posting this information, Pusillanimous! How might I go about finding out "which court or insolvency practitioner" please? Sorry if that sounds dense, I'm just not au fait with these things (which I guess is what they were banking on). I know their company number is 07135079.

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I wonder what that " outstanding charge" is, perhaps that is your one?

 

I wish I knew :-(

I only know their company number is 07135079. Not sure if I'm supposed to divulge that on here, or if it's bad practice, but I guess if they have been struck off they can't complain. What does it mean if it's a DS01? Also, you said to get in touch with the insolvency practitioner. Someone else has mentioned that on here, too. How might I find out this information, please?

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A DS01 is a voluntary striking off application. This is supposed to be used for solvent dissolutions with no insolvency practitioner appointed. If there are creditors to be dealt with a liquidation should have been used which is a different process. The Directors were required to notify all creditors (which would include you) in order to give them a chance to object to the application. It was a criminal offence not to do so as you will see from s1006 CA 2006 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/1006.

 

I think it is unlikely that the charge would be your judgment. A judgment is a form of unsecured debt so there shouldn't be a charge. If you want to see what the charge is you can pay 1 pound to download the MG01 from Companies House.

 

Can you give a bit more information about what happened to the company's assets, if you know about this? Was the bar transferred into another company owned by a relative of the Director? This will inform the best way to go about dealing with this in the civil courts as there are a few different options.


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Further to steampowered's post, it is worth giving the government's Insolvency Services a ring with the Company Registration Number to see if they have a record of it and quote the London Gazette statutory advertisement date. If so - and many members voluntary liquidations are handled by them and insolvency practitioners - they should be able to tell you what to do next. They can also tell you how to report a director. Google their webpage. You mention the information re Gazette dates here:

 

Quote:

Recent Filing History:

13/11/2012 Final Gazette, dissolved via voluntary strike off

29/10/2012 31/01/12 Total exemption small

31/07/2012 Voluntary strike off suspended

26/06/2012 First gazette notice for voluntary strike off

13/06/2012 Application for striking off

03/03/2012 25/01/12 full list

Edited by Pusillanimous

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Can you give a bit more information about what happened to the company's assets, if you know about this? Was the bar transferred into another company owned by a relative of the Director? This will inform the best way to go about dealing with this in the civil courts as there are a few different options.

 

To clarify, often in a members voluntary wind up, a vehicle company is set up (like a holding company) and all the net assets are transferred to this vehicle company and often then transferred to the newly set up company with the same or similar shareholders. It is all done on paper with no money exchanging hands. Hence the term, *distribution in specie*. This can be done in a management buy out, for example, with the new managers taking over a division the parent company no longer wants.

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Further to steampowered's post, it is worth giving the government's Insolvency Services a ring with the Company Registration Number to see if they have a record of it and quote the London Gazette statutory advertisement date. If so - and many members voluntary liquidations are handled by them and insolvency practitioners - they should be able to tell you what to do next. They can also tell you how to report a director. Google their webpage. You mention the information re Gazette dates here:

 

Quote:

Recent Filing History:

13/11/2012 Final Gazette, dissolved via voluntary strike off

29/10/2012 31/01/12 Total exemption small

31/07/2012 Voluntary strike off suspended

26/06/2012 First gazette notice for voluntary strike off

13/06/2012 Application for striking off

03/03/2012 25/01/12 full list

 

Thank you for continuing to help me! I did as you asked, but the operator - a very unhelpful person who can't spell "leisure" - said they had no record of neither the company's name or their reference number :-(

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Yes, I imagine it is likely that the assets were moved into the new company.

 

FYI this is not a members' voluntary liquidation - MVL is a process under the Insolvency Act which involves the appointment of an insolvency practitioner; voluntary striking-off is a simpler process under the Companies Act which doesn't involve the Official Receiver or any insolvency practitioner. This will be why the Insolvency Service have no record of the company because striking-off is not an insolvency process. You can tell because form DS01 is for striking-off; if this was an MVL there would be a special resolution filed instead.

 

The bit I'm not sure about is whether failure to notify creditors before doing the strike-off contrary to s1003 Companies Act 2006 would mean the Directors are personally liable for this debt in addition to the criminal offence committed. The Op could certainly apply for the company to be restored to the register, apply for a creditors' compulsory liquidation, have an insolvency practitioner appointed and then ask the insolvency practitioner to challenge the transfer of assets from old company to new company as a transaction at an undervalue under the Insolvency Act ... but not the quickest or easiest route. Frustratingly a lot of the Insolvency Act provisions are actionable by administrators/liquidators/receivers and not directly by creditors. I'll need to consider this and welcome thoughts anyone might have.


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If your lawyer says it will be too expensive, can you ask him to explain *why*? If you have paid for expertise I'd be using it..!


Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Yes, I imagine it is likely that the assets were moved into the new company.

 

FYI this is not a members' voluntary liquidation - MVL is a process under the Insolvency Act which involves the appointment of an insolvency practitioner; voluntary striking-off is a simpler process under the Companies Act which doesn't involve the Official Receiver or any insolvency practitioner. This will be why the Insolvency Service have no record of the company because striking-off is not an insolvency process. You can tell because form DS01 is for striking-off; if this was an MVL there would be a special resolution filed instead.

 

The bit I'm not sure about is whether failure to notify creditors before doing the strike-off contrary to s1003 Companies Act 2006 would mean the Directors are personally liable for this debt in addition to the criminal offence committed. The Op could certainly apply for the company to be restored to the register, apply for a creditors' compulsory liquidation, have an insolvency practitioner appointed and then ask the insolvency practitioner to challenge the transfer of assets from old company to new company as a transaction at an undervalue under the Insolvency Act ... but not the quickest or easiest route. Frustratingly a lot of the Insolvency Act provisions are actionable by administrators/liquidators/receivers and not directly by creditors. I'll need to consider this and welcome thoughts anyone might have.

 

Thanks - again - for your detailed response. I'm learning new things by the minute here!

Before I located this site, I contacted Companies House (I basically emailed them a similar version to my first post), who have just this minute replied with the following...

 

Thank you for your e-mail, the contents of which have been noted and placed on file.

 

"In your correspondence of the 29 August 2013, you mention that there was court proceedings that lasted over two years, the above company filed for dissolution on the 13th June 2012. If you can provide the evidence showing that the company was aware of the proceedings, I may be able to look into your complaint."

Do I reply back, or should I wait until a better game plan can be thought up?

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To be honest I am not sure what Companies House could do here. I'd have to check whether they have the power to restore a company to the register without a court order. I can't see any harm in providing them with the evidence and there may be a great deal of benefit if it puts pressure on the Directors. Personally I would reply back with the evidence.


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If your lawyer says it will be too expensive, can you ask him to explain *why*? If you have paid for expertise I'd be using it..!

 

He's used to dealing with huge companies who don't pull this type of stunt, from what I'm gathering. He was just expecting to win the Tribunal and then they cough up the dough. This was from his last email:

 

"I have discussed the matter at length with the litigation department and I am afraid it is not great news. Whilst there is a civil court process we can follow to pursue the company/new company/*** they still require a winding up process i.e. getting the company back on the register then having them put into liquidation. I understand that this is an extremely expensive process and would cost several thousand pounds."

Edited by honeybee13
Company name removed.

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To be honest I am not sure what Companies House could do here. I'd have to check whether they have the power to restore a company to the register without a court order. I can't see any harm in providing them with the evidence and there may be a great deal of benefit if it puts pressure on the Directors. Personally I would reply back with the evidence.

 

I will do that, but before I do, a question: Let's say I muddle through the correct procedure, with the end result that they are found to have broken the law and are therefore going to be punished. What sort of punishment do you think they will get? Just a fine, I'm assuming - but how much? I ask this for a reason:

 

If it's a significant fine...for argument's sake, let's say £10,000...

As my lawyer explained to me, albeit briefly, to get anything from the opposition I would have to pay a few thousand pounds first. But, in doing so, I wouldn't get anything like the £17,000 back, and would be counting my blessings if I broke even. Okay, so let's say that's the case. If, however, I can turn around to the opposition and tell them that I have both concrete evidence and the means that would get them a £10,000 fine, but would hold off from doing so if they furnished me with X-amount, at least I would end up be getting something. Obviously, I would prefer it if a means can be found of my spending no- to little money to get everything I'm due, but it's an idea.

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Your solicitor appears to be talking about a winding up petition which is indeed expensive - Court Fee of £220 plus the deposit paid into Court for the Official Receiver which is around £1,600.

 

It's not explained in his brief email how they would pursue the new company for the old company's debts.

 

In my view your solicitor could write a without prejudice letter to the director of the dissolved company raising the point that steampowered made regarding s1006 CA 2006. I don't think this would render him personally liable for company debts, but your solicitor can certainly use it as a bit of a threat and advise that a report will be made to the relevant authorities if the issue of your judgment is not addressed.

 

If that doesn't make him sit up and listen then nothing to stop you reporting him yourself.

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The solicitor is suggesting the course of action described in post 14. First stage is to apply for the company to be restored to the register. Second stage is to apply for a creditor's winding-up and appoint an insolvency practitioner. Third stage is for the IP to investigate the company's affairs. If there was a transaction at an undervalue (i.e. assets being moved into the new company) the liquidator should be able to get that reversed.

 

Let me get back to you on the non-notification thing.


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Your solicitor appears to be talking about a winding up petition which is indeed expensive - Court Fee of £220 plus the deposit paid into Court for the Official Receiver which is around £1,600.

 

It's not explained in his brief email how they would pursue the new company for the old company's debts.

 

In my view your solicitor could write a without prejudice letter to the director of the dissolved company raising the point that steampowered made regarding s1006 CA 2006. I don't think this would render him personally liable for company debts, but your solicitor can certainly use it as a bit of a threat and advise that a report will be made to the relevant authorities if the issue of your judgment is not addressed.

 

If that doesn't make him sit up and listen then nothing to stop you reporting him yourself.

 

Thank you for your thoughts, SuperVillain. What I'd like to know, before I fire the gun, so to speak, is what everyone thinks the process and end result would be if I did end up having to report them?

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I'd like to know what anyone thinks of this, which was personally emailed to me...

 

"The man is still trading and you cannot close down a company when you have debts. The mortgage was/is a debt pus he had staff who BY LAW

should have had redundancy money, even if the judgement came after his dissolving his company. If a company cannot pay redundancy money then the directors should have approached the Social Services who would have paid the workers some redundancy."

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The Directors were required to notify all creditors (which would include you) in order to give them a chance to object to the application. It was a criminal offence not to do so as you will see from s1006 CA 2006 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/1006.

 

I've managed to dig out their worst case scenario:

"The offences attract a fine of up to a maximum of £5,000 on summary conviction (before a magistrates' court or Sherriff Court) or an unlimited fine on indictment (before a jury). If the directors breach the requirements to give a copy of the application to relevant parties and do so with the intention of concealing the application, they are also potentially liable to not only a fine but also up to seven years imprisonment. Anyone convicted of these offences may also be disqualified from being a director for 15 years."

 

I'm thinking if I pass this knowledge on to my brief, and he approaches the opposition, they might want to talk shop. What do you think about that?

 

Meanwhile: The opposition seem to be not only very slippery but also clued up. When you say I'm a creditor, and this would therefore make them guilty, the Tribunal ruling hadn't actually gone against them at the time, and I can't find anything in the legislation that specifically covers my position. Maybe they looked into this and found my position easy to get around?

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