my MBNA debt been through every DCA in the book - now link chasing

[ncm-000]

Get all of the charges listed>

 

 

I have enough paperwork to fill a skip, I shall be at this for a few weeks yet.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Might be enough to see off a large part of the debt!!!

[ncm-000]

I think it will amount to less than 10% even with interest over 5 years.

 

I don't think it is enforceable, for lots of reasons.

 

8 different DCAs

3 different offers of discount

potential problems with the agreement (they only have a credit application )

DCAs run away when challenged.

12 months from SB.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Thinking on this MBNA used ''dual purpose'' app/agreement forms some were/are compliant others were definitely not, do you have a copy?

[ncm-000]

Thinking on this MBNA used ''dual purpose'' app/agreement forms some were/are compliant others were definitely not, do you have a copy?

 

I posted it in another thread and you looked at it.

 

It might be OK but have they got the supporting paperwork to link the application to an account?

We are talking a document near 20 years old!

Couple that with all the other things listed above and I think they are on a hiding to nothing.

 

Doesn't matter really as I have no money, no income and no assets.

 

I just want these bottom feeding **** to waste as much of their money as possible.

 

A few trips to see the District Judge should rack their Barristers fees up a few £K. And if they lose then I am sure I can justify a hefty expenses bill to add to their woes.

 

this was supposed to be a general question as I have a thread running for advice on that particular can of worms.

 

I just tacked on to this rhread as it was heading for a discussion on reclaiming fees and charges.

 

I would only want to open this can of worms if it would yeald some cash not just reduce the owed balance!

Edited March 31, 2013 by ncm-000
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[ncm-000]

To add mud to the waters I have just found a MBNA Statement from 2006 with a different account number on it.

 

The first 8 digits are the same. I have only ever had one MBNA Mastercard.

 

when the agreement (possibly) turned into an account it would most certainly NOT have been the one hand written

and preceded by the word Arrow on the top of the form.

 

Now in a court of law I would expect this would 'blow them out of the water' unless they could prove an unbroken chain from

1. the Application to

2.an agreement (missing)

3. to an account in the first number.

4. to a documented chain proving the change to the new number.

 

And I seriously doubt they can.

 

in a Civil court the 'balance of probabilities 'comes in not 'beyond reasonable doubt' so can I rely on them not being able to provide a chain of evidence.

 

Is there a way I can use this to force them to back down permanently

or should I hold this 'torpedo' in my arsenal to spring on this in front of a Judge, should the be stupid enough to go to court?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Is it possible a repalcement card was issued at any time David?

[ncm-000]

Is it possible a replacement card was issued at any time David?

I can't remember that far back.

Surely the same chain of evidence would be required if that were the case

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Most cards have a ''life' of 3 years and a replacement is then a new card is issued the first digits remain the the lat 8 change.

 

The SAR is the best route without all the data all is speculation.

[ncm-000]

I am still waiting for Fredrickson ( & Arrow) to come back with something as my last communication was a 'prove it letter'

The application form was provided by a previous DCA who 'ran away' when I challenged them.

 

So if required I shall SAR MBNA (I will not spend the £10 until I NEED to).

 

Any thoughts on the other points raised?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

It's difficult to see that no such ''chain' existed, given an app form/card numebers and useage of va credit facility.

The SAR is the answer imo.

[ncm-000]

It's difficult to see that no such ''chain' existed, given an app form/card numebers and useage of va credit facility.

The SAR is the answer imo.

 

I am trying to understand the differences between Criminal Law and Civil Law.

 

If the evidence was for a Criminal Case then I believe they would have to provide an unbroken chain of paper work linking the various bits we have now.

For example there is no document that says the application was successful and the account AAAA BBBB CCCC DDDD was issued with a credit limit of £AWS.XX

 

There is only the implication that as a result of an application in 1994 there exists an account in 2008 - some 14 years later. That to me is a big jump.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Criminal Law a case must be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

 

English civil law is built on in simple term 'as what would be deemed to be fair and reasonable to ''the man in the street'' and the ''balance of probabilities''

 

eg, Mr X had applied for a credit card, app is approved and the credit facility is used and the account is paid over a ''period'' of time> Mr X then falls behind with payments and is finally taken to court ( now leaving out ''faulty paperwork etc at this point) the creditor produces in court the ''app form'' and statements showing useage of the credit facility and payments being made by Mr.X on the balance of probablities here an account can reasonably be said to have existed.

 

The useage of ann account opened in 1994 onwards would subtantiate its existance.

[ncm-000]

Another couple of general questions.

 

1. If a debt has been through the hands of a number of DCAs and has been sold to a debt purchaser. And during discussions with a DCA who has now departed the field an offer to pay a nominal sum was offered and rejected. Would a debt owner have the letters to/from the DCA in question? As if they did not then a SB statement could be made after 6 years, with a fair chance of succeeding.

 

2. If a payment has been made say 3 years after a debt was defaulted would a debt owner be able to press fro payment 6+ years after the default. What would their chances of succeeding with court action be?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Default dates and the Limitations Act 1980 6 year time line for statute barred status must be viewed a completely separate.

The SB limitations is 6 clear years (5 in Scotland) with no payment or unequivocal admission of liability for the debt. ANY payment to any party DCA/Debt Purchaser during the 6 year period resets the six year clock!! Any further payments will reset is each time a payment is made.

Defaults are removed from credit file on the 6th anniversary of the default PAID OR NOT.

There are situations where a debt becomes statute barred while a ''default'' has time to run, the default remains until the 6th anniversary is reached.

Your point 2. means the debt is NOT statute barred as the payment resets the ''clock'' however the default will be removed after 6 years.

Point one letters that can/could reset the clock a very likely to be retained.

[ncm-000]

Thank you Brig,

I seem to remember reading elsewhere on this forum a comment that a non-SBd debt for which the default date was over 6 years, although not SB to would be difficult if not impossible to to get a judge to allow enforcement. Have I remembered correctly ?

 

If a letter that could be construed to be an acknowledgement of the debt was sent to a DCA, would you expect that the DCA would forward it to the debt owner when they walked away from the case?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

No action should be started 6 years or more after the cause of action.

I would expect such a letter to be forwarded if aDCA returns a file to the

original creditor.

[ncm-000]

No action should be started 6 years or more after the cause of action.

 

So would that prevent court action 6 years after the default or would a Creditor be able to claim (successfully) that it was a continuing action by showing the actions of various DCAs?

[ncm-000]

Hi Brig

 

Just found the thread I was referring to back in 2011 http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?306400-Oc-tax-write-off-debts-query you yourself actually had some input into this thread.

 

This was the actual paragraph from the HMCR website I was looking for and not the one I referred to on this thread.

 

 

Do not know if this helps but saved this on one of the threads I picked up on this site.

 

If they have wrote off the account and claimed VAT Tax relief, then they cannot sell the debt - the issue is proving they have claimed the tax relief.

 

In section 2.2 of the HMRC Reference: Notice 700/18 (December 2002) it states that a creditor who has met the condition of placing a debt in a “written off” account cannot sell the debt or assign the debt having claimed “bad debt relief

 

I knew I had discussed this topic once before just took a bit of time to find the thread.

 

Tinks

 

 

Knowing that Banks consider themselves above the law is there a tactic available to CAGers to contact HMRC when advised of a sale of a debt and query if the OC did write the debt off and claim the debt relief, because if they did it would invalidate the sale.

 

Would it be safe to imply that one has reason to believe that this fraudulent activity has taken place.

I.e. case law for each OC having been caught once so are they at it again?

[the tinkerman]

Very good points ncm unfortunately for me my debt was sold some 10 years ago unbeknown to me at the time and would have been a bulk buy of debts as OC went Bust, so very much think like looking for a needle in a haystack for HMRC then again would HMRC divulge that sort of info to you if that paragraph I quoted does refer to consumer debts. Certainly would open a can of worms if it did me thinks.

 

Wish now I would have kept the name of the Original Cagger who posted that paragraph:sad:

Edited April 11, 2013 by the tinkerman

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

The fact that a company has had ''tax relief'' on a bad debt does not extinguish the debtors liability, the kind of ''proposition'' has come up many time over the years and has I'm afraid no merit.

[the tinkerman]

So just to clarify Brig

 

is the Quote:

 

If they have wrote off the account and claimed VAT Tax relief, then they cannot sell the debt - the issue is proving they have claimed the tax relief.

 

In section 2.2 of the HMRC Reference: Notice 700/18 (December 2002) it states that a creditor who has met the condition of placing a debt in a “written off” account cannot sell the debt or assign the debt having claimed “bad debt relief

 

incorrect,not appertaining to consumer debts or when you say it holds no merit have we got a thread somewhere to say this has been looked into with HMRC, just to put this issue to bed once and for all.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

There is no VAT on consumer credit debt, this is not like unpaid invoices between businesses, where a debt is truly written off against tax and cannot be sold on the regulation of the debt purchase an sale industry needs a specialist tax accountant all I can say is this is one thing the industry is not getting away with.

[ncm-000]

The fact that a company has had ''tax relief'' on a bad debt does not extinguish the debtors liability, the kind of ''proposition'' has come up many time over the years and has I'm afraid no merit.

 

But does it :-

 

a. prevent them selling it on.

b. prevent a purchaser chasing the debtor for the full amount.

c. limit the debt in some other way.

 

Seems strange that it can be 'written off' but yet still be collected. That gives the original owner two bites at the cherry.

Would that pass the reasonableness test in a civil court?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

THE debt industry does not write off debt as part of the sale and purchase of debts the creditors sells a ''portfolio of accounts (debts) this is NOT sold as individual

accounts the whole portfolio may be 100snof thousands of pounds some debts viable some not so and some absolute lemons.

 

It is not like Mr Bloggs the builder not paying the merchant and the merchant writing off the debt or bad debt relief two different worlds.

 

The phrase written off is often misused, when a bank sells massive numbers of accounts yes they are ''written off '' the banks book debts by the sale.

Edited April 11, 2013 by BRIGADIER2JCS