SD from lowells etc - old halifax card, terminated before DN expiry - help

[Indebt1]

HI All

 

I sent the standard CCA letter to Halifax on the 30th March and recived a response on the 17th April.

 

there didnt seem to be a proper agreement attached,

just a computer printout stating

"cc agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974"

my name on the front page followed by all the standard jargon nothing indicating a signature or even remotley resembling an application form.

 

also enclosed an account summary/statement as well as a 7 page printout of terms and conditions.

 

There letter seems pretty defensive because all i asked for was an agreemnt copy and look at the bottom two paragraphs.

 

i would appriciate some guidence on how to move forward with this?

 

i am in arrears now by one month do i pay?

 

is it worth paying minimum payments and continuing to fight or just demand the correct forms?

 

Is there a letter now the i should send?

 

any help is most appriciated.

[Indebt1]

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[Indebt1]

[Fingers60]

Hey Indebt 1

 

The docs you have been sent is the standard HBOS reponse.

 

I would reply with a letter, I have copied one below for you...amend to suit.

 

Halifax sent me this stuff first and i chased and eventually they sent a copy of my CCA.

 

There are 2 reasons they may have not sent you it 1) they have lost it 2) it may be unenforcable so they dont want you to have a copy.

 

Personally I would continue with the CCA request letters and give them plenty of time to respond.

 

If this route fails then check out PTs thread as this seems to be the way forward rather than the standard CCA request route:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

Success of this route can be followed here:

 

smt37 vs Morgan Stanley/Goldfish/Barclaycard ** ORDER TO PRODUCE CCA CPR31.16 WIN ***

 

With regards payments, some on here have stopped all payments after 14 days of the CC company failing to come up with the CCA copy. However, it is likely that the card company will ignore you and pass you on to their collection services and register adverse information agaisnt you on your credit file.

 

So I guess it depends on how you feel about having your credit file trashed??

 

Personnally, I have continued the minimum payments on my cards until I am pretty sure I have a good case for stopping payments but that is just my personal view.

 

My letter below:

 

Card Services

Halifax

Pitreavie Business Park

Dunfermline

Fife

KY99 4BS

 

FORMAL NOTICE - ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE[/font]

Account/Reference NumberYour Ref:

Thank you for your recent reply (dated) to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your company’s current and previous Terms and Conditions and a covering letter giving the prescribed terms. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with my request and that your company is in default under the act You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original executed Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

In my letter of the ***** I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under Sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contains all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document also

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you enter into a default situation

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default today ****** (12+2 working days after I sent you the CCA request – you signed for my original letter on the ****** Royal mail ref: ************).

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;[/font]

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorizes, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:[/font]

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorized by regulations

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned provison.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you

You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

You may not pass the account to a third party

You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit

 

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint, your further non-compliance will result in complaints being forwarded to the relevant statutory bodies.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

 

Fingers

Edited April 26, 2009 by Fingers60

[Indebt1]

hi all

 

Have sent the following letter and recieved a call today chasing payment and i very politley explained that the account is in dispute as nobody has answered the below later yet, they made me repeat that it is in dispute for the benefit of the recorder i suppose and i have not made any payment, is this dangerous now?

do i make the minimum and continue to fight?

 

 

 

 

 

FORMAL NOTICE - ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Account/Reference NumberYour Ref:

Thank you for your recent reply 17th April 09 to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your company’s current and previous Terms and Conditions and a covering letter giving the prescribed terms. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with my request and that your company is in default under the act ,You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original executed Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

In my letter dated March 30th I made a formal request for a copy of the signed, executed credit agreement for the above account under Sections 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contains all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document also

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you enter into a default situation

You have failed to comply with my request, Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you enter into a default situation

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on the 21st April 2009 (12+2 working days after I sent you the CCA request – you signed for my original letter on the 1st April Royal mail ref:

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows:

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorizes, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorized by regulations

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned provison.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you

You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

You may not pass the account to a third party

You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit

 

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint, your further non-compliance will result in complaints being forwarded to the relevant statutory bodies.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

[Fingers60]

Hey Indebt

 

They will most likley ignore your letters, continue to ask fro payment and regsietr late payments, then a default agaist you and then pass your account on to a debt collection agency...

 

What they should do in terms of their legal obligations under the CCA and what they actually do are 2 very different things!

 

As i said i have maintained my minimum payments until i know exactly where i stand...that is just my approach as i work in financial services and dont want to explain to my employer why my credit file is trashed !

 

So what you depends on your circumstances ,what your looking to achieve etc

 

so when you say is this dangerous ?? well..depends really ! in theory no...but reality and your credit file are 2 differen stories...in theory you can stopmpaying and if thye suddenly come up with an enfoecable agreement..you woudl say ok the games up i'll pay you now...

 

does that help ?

[Indebt1]

Looking through all the threads seems to be very few have actually got away or made a settlment using the CCA requests.

they called me last week and i advised over the phone that my account is in dispute and they must reply to letters that i have sent, in the meantime i would ask them to refrain from calling me.

[Indebt1]

had a phonecall from Halifax today and after going through security (dont know why i bother) the lady said that the accounts is now with collection and they have been advised that the account is in dispute by myself to an advisor over the phone recently.

she asked were i had sent the letters to as she had nothing showing on the account? i told her that i would check once i was in my office and i refused to be drawn into a conversation what the dispute was about stating that i had provided the dispute in writing and have been advised by legal not to discuss verbally.

she did request that i call back today to advise to what address i had sent the dispute letter to?

the letter listed above did actually state that the account goes into dispute after 14 days and it was delivered on the 1st so do i need i pay the minimum at this stage?

[Fingers60]

had a phonecall from Halifax today and after going through security (dont know why i bother) the lady said that the accounts is now with collection and they have been advised that the account is in dispute by myself to an advisor over the phone recently.

she asked were i had sent the letters to as she had nothing showing on the account? i told her that i would check once i was in my office and i refused to be drawn into a conversation what the dispute was about stating that i had provided the dispute in writing and have been advised by legal not to discuss verbally.

she did request that i call back today to advise to what address i had sent the dispute letter to?

the letter listed above did actually state that the account goes into dispute after 14 days and it was delivered on the 1st so do i need i pay the minimum at this stage?

 

hey indebt

 

after 3 months I am still paying my minimum payments because I can afford to, however this may change soon !

whether you continue to pay your minimum payments is down to your personally but Halifax will trash your credit file and pass you account to a debt collectio agency regardless of your correspondence and regardless of what they should actually do !

 

I am waiting until I know exactly where i stand with my credit agreement which I should know within the next few weeks and will make decision on my payments then, other caggers will stop payments after Halifax have defaulted on their CCA request etc.

[Indebt1]

i have just had automated calls which has changed since i told them im disputing the debt due to no CCA, had some letters through saying how i should call there customer service dept but hey two can play the ignoring game!!

[Indebt1]

[Indebt1]

[Indebt1]

well they seem to have come up with something as attached, the side of the terms and condition bit above the signature seems to have a line missing, what is my next move here? is this now enforceable?

[Fingers60]

Hey Indebt

 

The last document you scanned is the agreement.

 

What is on the reverse of this copy document they sent you...the credit card conditions of use???

 

Fingers

[Indebt1]

Hi Fingers

yes it has !!

 

it is quite strange though that they have suddendly pulled it out of their hat and all looks ok?

i have a sneaking suspicion that the are placing the t&c's on the back themselves now, it just doesnt look straight and i reckon it has been copied on.

is there anything i can do? can i say i want to go to their office to see the original?

what should my next step be?

there is a black line down the right hand side of the t&c's which hints that this is just a copy and paste job!

[Fingers60]

Hi Indebt

 

I have the same issue where I think the T & Cs have been photocopied on the back of my credit agreement.

 

Heres my link:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/184068-halifax-credit-card-cca.html

 

I am taking advice on mine from sols and I should hear back within the next 2 weeks. I will post up the advice I am given on my thread so I would suggest subbing to my thread.

 

With regards whether your agreement is enforceable or not in its current from I would refer to this thread by Steven: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements-guide.html

 

Learn the facts then apply them to your case.

 

My contention is that I think my t & cs were not on the back of my original credit agreement...i will keep my thread updated.

 

Fingers

[Indebt1]

what happens if you write a letter to the bank voicing your suspicions that the t&c have been scanned and pasted on the back and request that that the bank confirms in writing that it was on the same page and would be prepared to prove this in a court of law?

when you start procedings is there not disclosure?

[Fingers60]

what happens if you write a letter to the bank voicing your suspicions that the t&c have been scanned and pasted on the back and request that that the bank confirms in writing that it was on the same page and would be prepared to prove this in a court of law?

when you start procedings is there not disclosure?

 

hi

 

there are a few of us that have posted these types of Halifix agreements up..... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/176296-could-anyone-tell-me.html

 

HELP PLEASE - DCA saying CCA is enforceable

 

The above 2 threads are useful to read.

 

-wilko999 states the following:

 

"exactly the same as mine - and mine was enforceable" when questioned why as no prescribed terms he states "mine were on the reverse, I chanced it, went to court - I lost. Up to the poster to decide how they wish to go with it but just letting you know that's what happened to me"

 

I think as you will see this is not one to chance in court without getting full legal opinion first. You will see from my halifax thread I asked similar questions and did not get a final response from anyone.

 

I would hang tight for 2 weeks and should have legal opinion by then on mine....and i think this will help you so keep an eye on my thread.

 

F

[babydoll0141917]

Hi

 

i have exactly the same agreement has you indebt..and so does many others,..the agreement as it stands is inproperly executed as not signed by the bank..also there are no terms and conditions on the sig doc ..there is no reference to the T and C being on the reverse ,no codes match,no page number no PTO,,it even says in the box above the signature (that you have received a copy of) which avers to the T and Cs being in a diff doc..also you have a cancellation right on the front of the form ..on the reverse is another cancellation right..both explaining different ways of cancelling ..you wouldnt get 2 cancellations on one agreement,,..I havent payed halifax for 18mths..its gone from 1 DCA to another,,the last being robinson way that have give up..if they thought they had any ace cards up their sleeves i think they would of used them by now ..i dont beleive that the reverse of the doc is part of the doc i signed its unexceptable for the bank to say it is without aany refernece to an overleaf etc..I have also been issues with an ivalid default notice dated jan 2008 only giving me 6 days to rectify..maybe halifax realize there is no point in persuing as they wont be get the amount they are asking if any amount at all

[Indebt1]

have they ever tried to settle with you? also what was your response to all these dca's? do you have assets on your name?

[babydoll0141917]

Hi no never tried to settle..live in rented accomadation..no assets worth anything..unemployed..as for the DCas i just send the bemused letter then they go away:)

[Indebt1]

as i own my house (for the moment) i guess i cant go the same way!!

i must have answers to shake them off and it must be legal answers.

whats funny is that with all the companies out there promisng to get you out of cc debt legally and all the posts all over this forum there seems to be very few with actual assets who can say they have gone all the way and won?

please prove me wrong somebody.

[Fingers60]

Hi Babydoll, thanks for the info really useful for us appreciated.

I agree that its unenforceable and I will feedback the legal opinion for the benefit of Indebt shortly.

 

Fing

[babydoll0141917]

Hi indebt

 

ive also noticed with my reverse side and yours..that they are slightly different..strange that has i took my card out in sept 2001 just months after you.. true copies i think would all look identical specially has they were taken out months apart..3 months apart infact..

[Indebt1]

i truly belive that this is not the real agreement that the t&c are being pulled out of a hat at the moment.

i think a letter asking Halifax if this is the real one ask them to provide in writing that this is the real deal, and then take them to the cleaners let them pull the real one out in court.

i just wish i had filed my originals, i will never throw an application form away again.