Appeal to Upper Tier re Housing Benefit

[Peter88]

Hi,

 

I'm a 60 year old man and have suffered severe depression for the past 14 years.

During that time I have been investigated for benefit fraud about 6 times.

On each occasion I was found to have done no wrong.

During the past two years I have been accused of LTAHAW. Subjected to Crown Court prosecution etc.

In January a Tribunal agreed that my landlady and I are not a couple. Reversed an IS decision and stated I was entitled to HB as a 'passported benefit'.

The HB appeal was heard at the same time, but at the last minute the council asked that REG 9 be considered. This caused an adjournment and a further hearing.

I lost at that hearing.

I appealed for leave to appeal to the Upper Tier. This was refused Frankly I don't know the law or how to do this. I'm alone and don't know how to argue the matter or what to say.

Losing makes me liable for about £12,000.

Can someone help? Or point me at someone who can? My local CAB are overwhelmed by work and daunted by the complexity of the case.

Time is running out for me.

[bedofweeds]

Hi,

 

I'm a 60 year old man and have suffered severe depression for the past 14 years.

During that time I have been investigated for benefit fraud about 6 times.

On each occasion I was found to have done no wrong.

During the past two years I have been accused of LTAHAW. Subjected to Crown Court prosecution etc.

In January a Tribunal agreed that my landlady and I are not a couple. Reversed an IS decision and stated I was entitled to HB as a 'passported benefit'.

The HB appeal was heard at the same time, but at the last minute the council asked that REG 9 be considered. This caused an adjournment and a further hearing.

I lost at that hearing.

I appealed for leave to appeal to the Upper Tier. This was refused Frankly I don't know the law or how to do this. I'm alone and don't know how to argue the matter or what to say.

Losing makes me liable for about £12,000.

Can someone help? Or point me at someone who can? My local CAB are overwhelmed by work and daunted by the complexity of the case.

Time is running out for me.

 

Hi, I'm sorry that I can't help you, but have a read of the following. It will explain why you were unable to obtain Housing Benefit. Seems that the council managed to get two bites out of the same cherry!!Council's, DWP. HMRC and others seems to be trying their level best to avoid having to pay out on what a couple of years ago was ace[table.This government removed a section of law that basically said that even if all fails, if it is found to be unfair and/or unreasonable, you can still have it.The DWP are doing the same to me and putting up every obstacle that they can to avoid paying out over £15,000!!!Good luck http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parliament.uk%2Fbriefing-papers%2FSN03078.pdf&ei=AXheUqbkLImI0AWo4YCYCg&usg=AFQjCNHdmjqodfGt9fa0410fPdRs2bmyCw&bvm=bv.54176721,d.Yms

[mekongmarcus]

It is possible to get legal aid for upper tier but the appeal can only be based on a point of law.Get yourself a lawyer that handles legal aid cases.

[bedofweeds]

It is possible to get legal aid for upper tier but the appeal can only be based on a point of law.Get yourself a lawyer that handles legal aid cases.

 

Good point, but have you actually managed to get it and find a solicitor that specialises in benefit law?I couldn't even after ringing the Law Society and the Legal Aid Service

[Peter88]

Thanks, but I understood the regulation. I disagree with it applying in this case. The tenancy was commercial.

At the hearings there were two presenting officers and me. I have no experience or expertise. So how can I argue about something I don't understand the rules of? Not just 2 against 1 but the Judge appeared to act against me. He did not help me give my case, he helped them.

[id6052]

have you obtained a statement of reasons and record of proceedings?

 

I assume so as you asked for leave to appeal (if not, do so without delay)

 

as you have been refused leave to appeal by First tier Tribunal, your next step is to submit an appeal directly to the upper tribunal

[Peter88]

I got a statement of reasons but no 'record of proceedings'. If I ask for one will that give me more time?

In the SoR, there were 'findings of fact' which were incorrect. I don't simply mean they believed a different story, these were things not disputed.

The Tribunal Judge did state several times that it was confusing.

Yes I need to appeal directly, but that wouldn't be any better without 'smart' help.

[antone]

I think I need to reiterate our standard advice in these situations - appealing to the Upper Tier is not a trivial matter, and you'd be best served by having a lawyer on your side.

 

Don't get me wrong, the guys here will offer whatever help they can, but in a complex case like this professional advice is the way to go.

[Peter88]

I think I need to reiterate our standard advice in these situations - appealing to the Upper Tier is not a trivial matter, and you'd be best served by having a lawyer on your side.

 

Don't get me wrong, the guys here will offer whatever help they can, but in a complex case like this professional advice is the way to go.

 

Yes, but where? I can't find anyone. I live in Settle North Yorks, Local solicitors are good with 'farming'.

I was told months ago by a CAB advisor that they have a specialist of some sort. "IN fact they rang up the other day looking for work"

Now, I can't get them to talk about it. I've been left high and dry.

Being saddled with the debt is bad enough, but I've lived a life of principles and this is unjust.

[estellyn]

CAB should be able to either take an upper tribunal case, or refer you to someone who can.

 

Alternatively you may be able to find a local law centre here

 

http://www.lawcentres.org.uk/

 

It is imperative that you have a benefit specialist representing you at upper tribunal - or even just to tell you whether they believe you have a case. Upper Tribunal appeals are far too complex for a layman, or even a general solicitor. You need someone with benefits experience.

[45002]

CAB should be able to either take an upper tribunal case, or refer you to someone who can.

 

Alternatively you may be able to find a local law centre here

 

http://www.lawcentres.org.uk/

 

It is imperative that you have a benefit specialist representing you at upper tribunal - or even just to tell you whether they believe you have a case. Upper Tribunal appeals are far too complex for a layman, or even a general solicitor. You need someone with benefits experience.

 

Which in post #1 OP said

 

Hi,

 

I'm a 60 year old man and have suffered severe depression for the past 14 years.

During that time I have been investigated for benefit fraud about 6 times.

On each occasion I was found to have done no wrong.

During the past two years I have been accused of LTAHAW. Subjected to Crown Court prosecution etc.

In January a Tribunal agreed that my landlady and I are not a couple. Reversed an IS decision and stated I was entitled to HB as a 'passported benefit'.

The HB appeal was heard at the same time, but at the last minute the council asked that REG 9 be considered. This caused an adjournment and a further hearing.

I lost at that hearing.

I appealed for leave to appeal to the Upper Tier. This was refused Frankly I don't know the law or how to do this. I'm alone and don't know how to argue the matter or what to say.

Losing makes me liable for about £12,000.

Can someone help? Or point me at someone who can? My local CAB are overwhelmed by work and daunted by the complexity of the case.

Time is running out for me.

Edited October 16, 2013 by 45002

[estellyn]

If the CAB can't deal with it, they should refer onto someone who can - which I believe I said.

[RaeUK]

Do try the law centres. I'm fairly certain that's who helped me on a matter a year or so ago. Geography doesn't seem to matter any more - I'm in Dorset and my case was handled by a centre in Newcastle.

[Peter88]

Do try the law centres. I'm fairly certain that's who helped me on a matter a year or so ago. Geography doesn't seem to matter any more - I'm in Dorset and my case was handled by a centre in Newcastle.

 

There are none in my area. The nearest specifies people living in that area.

[Lea_HTH]

If you genuinely can't get help from CAB or a law centre, book an appointment with your MP. He/she can refer you to the Bar Pro Bono Unit for help.

 

CAB/Law Centres can also refer you to the BPBU, and can also refer you to the Free Representation Unit. As a last resort, if you have a university near you that offers Law as a subject, you might wish to call their pro bono department and ask if a law student could help you out - most law schools have a law clinic of some description these days.

[Peter88]

Thank you all!

I did follow one of the links given as was referred to the CLA Civil Legal Advice website. I've completed some info requests and been referred to [a firm of] solicitors in Wales.

I just hope that they are all genuine.

I do wish to ask if any of you would be willing to provide me with answers to questions I might have. Sort of let me air ideas or thoughts I might have. Although I'm a mental mess these days I wasn't always so. Sometimes the old me shines through.

The big thing about this sort of matter is understanding why?

Edited October 18, 2013 by antone
Removed company name

[antone]

Good that you've found someone to help.

 

You're welcome to ask questions here, and people can offer their thoughts. Bear in mind, though, that appeals to the Upper Tribunal are outside the experience and skillset of most posters here, so please don't rely solely on comments on CAG.

[estellyn]

I've done a few Upper Tribunal appeals, I'll answer what questions I can if I know the answer, but as Antone said, it's good that you are getting some specialist help.

[Peter88]

I've done a few Upper Tribunal appeals, I'll answer what questions I can if I know the answer, but as Antone said, it's good that you are getting some specialist help.

 

Thank you to all! I have been trying to get specialist help for months. But CAB simply let me down by chucking it back at me 4 days before my first appeal was due.

This last ditch appeal has to be in by 5th November. How am I supposed to get chance to discuss a complex matter and come up with sound reasons? Especially when all I see is my own logic. I don't understand why anyone else doesn't see my point.

Earlier in this matter my alleged 'partner' was charged with fraud on the grounds that she provided false information. Her solicitor urged her to plead guilty. I kept saying " but you didn't lie, the document asks a question that isn't what they claim it is." (The document asks for a BUSINESS address, which she gave. They thought the response was her RESIDENTIAL address.)

Ten days before her trial the prosecutor read my submission stating this. Suddenly they realise they simply did not read their own document properly. All of them thought it asked a different question. Charges dropped.

An observing officer reported seeing something. I later PROVED by photographs it was impossible for him to see. He was called in by the Tribunal and admitted his 'language was misleading, in that it implied something that wasn't true".

My first question is, can I ask for more time?

I haven't been given a transcript of the hearing which would show the judge admitting to 'getting confused' in his finding of fact there are things that are incorrect. Undisputed items. If he had facts wrong how can his judgement be valid?

There were two presenting officers teamed against me. I was told not to argue about the Reg 9 matter. Do I didn't. In the 2nd hearing it became obvious that he was referring to evidence submitted during the 1st.

[estellyn]

First question - you can request on the form for them to consider your late application and give reasons why. Having difficulty finding representation, and having to request the record of proceedings from the first tier, as it wasn't sent with the statement of reasons are reasons, though your rep should deal with this if you decide to wait. The Upper Tribunal do not have to accept your reasons for being late.

 

If you lost the appeal on the reg 9 issue then this is what you would need to concentrate on at an upper tribunal. I would need more facts in order to be able to advise on an argument. What relationship are they suggesting under reg 9 that would make the tenancy non commercial? If this is what the appeal was lost on then this is the aspect of the decision that you need to demonstrate the error of law with.

[Peter88]

First question - you can request on the form for them to consider your late application and give reasons why. Having difficulty finding representation, and having to request the record of proceedings from the first tier, as it wasn't sent with the statement of reasons are reasons, though your rep should deal with this if you decide to wait. The Upper Tribunal do not have to accept your reasons for being late.

 

If you lost the appeal on the reg 9 issue then this is what you would need to concentrate on at an upper tribunal. I would need more facts in order to be able to advise on an argument. What relationship are they suggesting under reg 9 that would make the tenancy non commercial? If this is what the appeal was lost on then this is the aspect of the decision that you need to demonstrate the error of law with.

 

Thanks. I was hoping that I could ask in advance for more time rather than after the fact.

 

It was concluded hat we were not a couple which had been the central allegation.

As best I can tell it was concluded that I lived rent free for 6 years in return for some largely unspecified service rendered. 'assisting with getting planning permission'.

Now the authority never put such an argument to me, no one did. So I never got a chance to refute it.

Basically the judge said he found no 'credible evidence' of my paying rent.

In fact my HB was paid by cheque to me, I gave it to my landlady who put it into my bank account. This account was a 'basic' one its only reason for being was for the rent. So she had the cash card and drew from it as she wished. My Incap was paid by giro, I didn't use the bank.

He kept looking for an amount to be drawn = to the rent. The account only allowed £200 in any 24 hours. So that was all she withdrew at any one time.

[estellyn]

What service were you actually giving in return for accommodation? Why did this service end that caused you to have to claim HB?

 

What proof do you have that the HB was actually received by your landlady (apart from her say so)?

[Peter88]

I didn't provide any service.

Nothing ended I had to claim when I ran out of savings.

I have no proof, apart from her say so.

But why would she allow me to live rent free for 6 years? The math is 12x480 x 6. That's a lot of money to not get.

[estellyn]

I didn't provide any service.

Nothing ended I had to claim when I ran out of savings.

I have no proof, apart from her say so.

But why would she allow me to live rent free for 6 years? The math is 12x480 x 6. That's a lot of money to not get.

 

So what were there reasons given on the statement of reasons for findings of fact that the tenancy was not commercial?

[id6052]

Reg 9 has 13 different conditions whereby HB can be refused.

 

In some instances, more than one condition will apply, can you confirm whether HB was only denied on commerciality grounds?

 

Or were any other grounds stated, for example, liability was created to take advantage of HB scheme?