PCN - onstreet parking bays - no signs

[afrik]

Hello All,

 

Great forum, I've searched for similar threads but did not find anything, hence the question.

 

I got a PCN for not displaying a valid ticket - overstayed by 8 minutes (observed from 08:04, time of contravention 08:08.

 

 

- parked in a parking bay - Manchester, Lana street, next to Premier Inn hotel.

- Arrived late in the evening (after 9pm), did not see any signs, parked in a parking bay. asked hotel staff if ok to park, they confirmed that ok to park till 8am.

- got genuinely delayed during checkout by people demanding money back for the lack of internet connectivity, asking for pillows etc... but that's probably not a good argument for the appeal ?

- caught CEO red handed but it was already too late (was taking pictures)

 

I think there might be inadequate signage on this street, as certainly I did not see any at the moment of parking:

- Lena street is a one way street

- there is only one sign on this street, at the entrance from A6 (Piccadilly/London Rd). it looks like it's bent toward the entrance - I did not use that entry to Lena Street

- I parked at the other end of the street which is 70-80 meters (or more) away from the sign

- I came from Patton Street & Back Piccadilly and there is no sign at the entrance to Lena steet

- There are no P&D machines on Lena Street

 

I cannot find a proper regulations I could use in my appeal. I only found the following information, would that be enough to fight against that PCN?

 

1. THE CONTRAVENTION DID NOT OCCUR. (i.e. you didn't do anything wrong in the first place)

This can because of one or more of the following reasons:

• the signs or road markings in the area were misleading or obscured;
  
  • This is a common complaint, and can prove a successful way to challenge your parking ticket. Councils must provide clear signs on each and every road entering an area where parking is restricted.
    
  • All signs should be clearly visible and show the hours when the restrictions are in place. You should check all the roads entering the area where you received your ticket. Check that there are signs on both sides of the road, and that the signs are not too small, faded, or covered by branches. All these can be reasons to invalidate a parking ticket.
    
  • If the restriction is particular to one street, rather than a whole area, each yellow line should have a sign on every lamp post. If there is a gap of more than 60m between lamp posts, there should be a signpost.
    
  • All single and double yellow lines have to be continuous, unbroken and must end in a 'T-bar'. If there are breaks in the line, or the line does not end in a T-bar (except where the line is broken with other road markings), this can invalidate any ticket given anywhere on the line.
    
  • Where there are parking bays at the side of the road there must be signs every 30m along the road. There should also be signs within 5m of each end of the parking bays.
    

 

Please find my photos of the street: s1162.photobucket.com/user/afronrg/library/PCN

 

Many thanks for any input.

 

Regards,

a.

[Jamberson]

It's actually Lena Street, not Lana.

 

Google Street View shows the road being resurfaced, so these parking bays must be recently painted.

 

Every bay, or set of bays, needs a sign. These bays appear from your photos to be unsigned. There is another set of bays further down the road, but these are separate from the ones you parked in, as there are yellow lines between them and the bays you used. Therefore, your bay is unsigned and so there is no contravention. (I'm assuming there isn't a sign fixed to the wall where you parked?)

 

You should appeal on the grounds that the bays were not signed.

 

Out of interest, what was the contravention stated on the PCN?

[afrik]

Every bay, or set of bays, needs a sign. These bays appear from your photos to be unsigned. There is another set of bays further down the road, but these are separate from the ones you parked in, as there are yellow lines between them and the bays you used. Therefore, your bay is unsigned and so there is no contravention. (I'm assuming there isn't a sign fixed to the wall where you parked?)

 

You should appeal on the grounds that the bays were not signed.

 

Thanks, I thought that was wrong, no signs on the wall.

 

Could someone point me to the regulations I could bring up when appealing?

 

Out of interest, what was the contravention stated on the PCN?

 

not displaying a valid ticket

there are no signs that inform of required payment nor P&D machines on Lena street at all.

 

Regards,

A.

[Jamberson]

Was it code 06 - "Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket"?

 

You don't need to quote regulations in a situation like this.

 

Just state that you parked in a bay which was not governed by any sort of sign. Therefore it is not clear to you that there are any restrictions in place, or what they could be. Since there is no signage, the bay is unenforceable.

[afrik]

Was it code 06 - "Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket"?

 

yes, code 06

 

You don't need to quote regulations in a situation like this.

 

Just state that you parked in a bay which was not governed by any sort of sign. Therefore it is not clear to you that there are any restrictions in place, or what they could be. Since there is no signage, the bay is unenforceable.

 

Ok, thanks Jamberson. I'm going to challenge that PCN - they have an online system for that. I only hope it works OK.

 

thank you for your input, will update the ticket with the results.

 

If anyone has sth to add, please do as will be working with the appeal soon.

[Jamberson]

You ought to win it. Are you able to include photos with your online appeal? The reason I ask is that CEOs usually take photos of the relevant signs as well as the vehicle, when issuing a PCN. If he has taken a photo of the sign at the end of the road, the person considering your appeal might wrongly assume it applied to your parking bay - so if you can include your images, and point out that the sign belongs to a different set of bays, that will help clarify the matter for them.

[afrik]

Morning,

 

I have received a letter from Manchester City Council. It reads as follows.

 

 

I have carefully considered your letter but on this occasion I have taken the decision not to cancel your parking ticket.

 

You were given a parking ticket for parking in a Pay & Display bay without a Pay & Display ticket. The Civil Enforcement Officer's notes, made when giving your parking ticket, state that you were not displaying a Pay & Display ticket. Lena Street, where you were parked, is in the City Centre Controlled Parking Zone. As you enter Manchester City Centre, you will pass a Controlled Zone sign. This tells you when the Pay & Display and single yellow line rules apply in the City Centre. The Controlled Zone signs explain that the rules for Pay & Display bays apply 8.00am - 8.00pm, seven days a week.

 

Additional signage within the zone is not required.

 

Therefore, I am satisfied that your parking ticket was issued correctly. To view images taken at the time your Penalty Charge Notice was issued, please visit Link_To_Website

 

You have these choices:

1 The penalty charge will be reduced by a discount of 50% to t25.00 if it is paid no later than the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which this letter is served.

( ... )

 

There's an attached picture of Controlled ZONE 8am-8pm sign.

 

On the website ticketfighter.co.uk/parking.htm I've found the following info:

 

 

Controlled Zones

A controlled zone is an area of restricted parking. Single yellow lines within a controlled zone do not need to be individually signed, unless their hours of operation differ from that of the zone. Parking bays need to be signed if they differ in any way from the information on the controlled zone sign (eg they are residents only).

 

Parking Bays

Pay and display, limited stay, motorcycle, doctor, residents and business permit parking bays.

All parking bays must be accompanied by a sign (except in certain circumstances in a controlled zone, see above).

Am I right thinking that MCC is actually right on this occassion?

 

Thank you for any input.

 

A.

[Michael Browne]

 

Am I right thinking that MCC is actually right on this occassion?

 

No, when they say:

As you enter Manchester City Centre, you will pass a Controlled Zone sign. This tells you when the Pay & Display and single yellow line rules apply in the City Centre. The Controlled Zone signs explain that the rules for Pay & Display bays apply 8.00am - 8.00pm, seven days a week.

 

Additional signage within the zone is not required.

they're being economical with the truth. Additional CPZ signs aren't required, but signs/timeplates are required for each individual bay. There are different types of bay: resident, business, pay & display, shared use etc, so these must be signed.

[TheBogsDollocks]

CPZ signs cannot be used to regulate Pay & Display bays.

 

A CPZ sign is known as Diagram 663 from the TSRGD 2002 and if you look at Item 3 in the table you will see that it can be used with 4 other diagrams. These diagrams are single and double yellow lines and single and double yellow "No Loading" kerb markings. If the CPZ sign was intended for use with parking bays then Item 3 would include a parking bay diagram such as diagram 1028.4.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/images/uksi_20023113_en_059

 

CPZ signs to diagram 663 can only regulate No Waiting and No Loading restrictions. It is permitted to vary the sign to indicate "Pay & Display" but this is simply to convey that there is parking available within the zone. Parking places within a CPZ need to be independently signed. This is made clear under paragraph 12.4 of the DfT published Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3.

 

12.4 All designated parking places and loading bays within a type (a) CPZ, other than parking meter bays, need to be signed in accordance with section 7 (see para 12.23 for disc or ticket parking).

[afrik]

Thank you all.

 

So it's either a simply incompetent employee, daylight robbery or system is corrupt?

 

Not sure what should I do.. fight the system, waste on the case some precious time and nerves or just Pay & Forget.. damn

[Jamberson]

 

So it's either a simply incompetent employee, daylight robbery or system is corrupt?

 

 

Probably incompetent employee.

 

I take it you have not had a Notice to Owner (NTO) yet? In any case, their rejection letter should tell you what your options are and what you need to do. I think you should fight on because I think you will win, and so do other posters above. The appeals system takes a while, but it doesn't cost anything. If it were me, I'd fight it.

[afrik]

I haven't received NTO yet as I'm still within 14 days.

 

I'm struggling to make a decision as on one hand, I do want to fight it as I know I'm on the right side in this case.

On the other hand I'm worried that I might not be able to represent myself well enough to win that. On top of that is the time sacrifice - I will have to designate some time for this case. Not sure how much as don’t know what to expect.

 

I tried to research the next steps but not really sure what is going to happen next after reading this from rejection letter:

 

3 lf the penalty charge is not paid or successfully challenged, the Council may serve a Notice to Owner (NtO) after 28 days of the penalty charge being served on the owner of the vehicle requiring payment of the full penalty charge. The owner can then make representations to the Council and may appeal to an independent adjudicator if those representations are rejected. The NtO will contain instructions for doing this.

 

please do advice on what can I expect to find in NtO, as I don't understand what exactly

- make representations to the Council mean? (In person? In writing?)

- appeal to an independednt adjudicator (I understand that as appeal to Ombudsman - is that in person, writing?)

 

thanks again..

[Michael Browne]

NTO reps are in writing. Council has 56 days to accept or reject and send a Notice of Rejection, which will include adjudication appeal form.

 

Adjudication can be in writing or (preferably) personal hearing.

[Jamberson]

Basically, there is no formal debt until a Notice to Owner is issued to the owner of the vehicle. You are still in this informal stage where you, or anyone else who happened to be driving, or who objects to the PCN, can make an informal appeal.

 

That's what you have done so far. The fact that you are also the owner is irrelevant.

 

Once the NTO comes through, it's formal, and you as the owner can submit a "formal representation". It's just a fancy term for a written appeal. So you will have a second chance to put your case in writing to them, and they will look at it afresh.

 

As you know, opting to take that route will mean letting the discount period expire, and you will be appealing the full charge. But as I said, if it were me, I would do that because I think you are right and will win. You can get some help on here, on how to word your representation. It's quite straight-forward really.

[afrik]

Hello All,

 

Based on your advice I decided to fight the case and I have now received NTO.Below you can find its contents. Apart from what’s below there are also 2 pageson how to make representation with statutory grounds as well as some spaceprovided for explanation.

 

First of all, Jamberson mentioned that the case is looked at afresh, so myunderstanding is to ignore the ignorant (council worker who responded to my challengeletter) and his response (including that CPZ does not regulate P&D) but referto initial PCN code 06 and lack of parking bay signs.

 

In my initial challenge letter (happy to scan if anyone is interested) Iprovided a lot of information e.g. how I got there + materials found on thisand other websites. Would you recommend at this stage just to get straight tothe point i.e. lack of P&D signs (& P&D Machine), sth I could think off:

 

The alleged contravention did not occur - the bays where I parked areunsigned:

- Where there are parking bays at the side of the road there must be singsevery 30m along the road.

- There should also be signs within 5m of each end of the parking bays.

- Every bay or set of bays needs a signs.

- The set of bays close to the entrance to Lena Street from A6 is separated bythe yellow lines from the set of bays I used. Therefore, the bays I parked onare not signed (should I mention Ientered from an alternative entry where this mentioned sign is not visible?)

 

 

Anything else I should mention here? Or maybe you’d recommend using more ‘technical’ language with cites fromcurrent legislation (In that case I’d need a lot of help though).

 

 

If needed, please find a NTO letter received.

 

 

Date of this Notice to Owner and date of posting

 

This Notice has been served on you because it appears to ManchesterCity Council that you are the owner of Vehicle Registration Number XXX Make:YYY Tax Disc: ZZZ Expiry: AAA Colour: BBB in respect of which vehicle Penalty ChargeNotice (PCN) number: CCC was served on DD by Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO):EEE who had reason to believe that the following contravention had occurred andthat a penalty charge was payable.

 

Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay and displayticket or voucher (code 06)

 

 

 

Location:

Date of Contravention:

Time:

 

The penalty charge is £50.00. To date £0.00 has been received.£50.00 is outstanding.

 

Note: The person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle specifiedabove was served with a penalty charge notice (PCN) which allowed 14 days for paymentof a 50% discounted penalty charge: otherwise the full penalty charge becamedue. Either no payment has been received or any payment received has been insufficientto clear the penalty charge.

 

A penalty charge notice of t50.00 is now payable by you asthe owner of the vehicle specified above and must be paid not later than the lastday of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this Notice is served.This Notice will be taken to have been served on the second working day after theday of posting (as shown above) unless you can show that it was not.

 

You may make representations to Manchester City Council asto why this penalty charge should not be paid. These representations should be madenot later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date onwhich this Notice is served and any representations which are made outside thatperiod may be disregarded.

 

Note: lf you do not pay the penalty charge or makerepresentations before the end of the 28 day period specified above the Councilmay increase the original penalty charge by 50% to £75.00 and take steps to enforcepayment.

[Jamberson]

My advice to people is always the same - strip out everything which does not form the basis of the appeal. The person reading it isn't going to be impressed with stuff quoted from the internet, or lots of circumstantial detail - let alone chapter and verse on the spacing of signs and so on. You just need to communicate the core issue to them in simple language.

 

I would write something like this, although it's up to you what you want to say - but this is what I would write:

 

On xxxx I parked in a marked bay on Lena Street. The bay had no signs governing it, and so it is my view as a driver that there are no restrictions in force at that bay. Nevertheless, to demonstrate that I was not seeking to take advantage of free parking, I purchased a P&D ticket from further along the road and displayed it on my vehicle.

 

When I returned, I had been ticketed by a CEO for overstaying.

 

The basis of this appeal is the absence of signage for the bay. If you consult your images, you will see that there is no sign at all communicating a restriction to the driver. Please note that there IS signage for the other bay in the road, but that is an entirely separate bay, some distance from the one I was using, and that sign will not therefore govern the bay I did use.

 

In my informal appeal, I brought up the signange issue, which was apparently accepted by the officer who looked at the case - but it was rejected nonetheless, on the basis that the CPZ entry signs govern pay and display bays within the zone, and that the restriction was therefore adequately signed. I believe this is false. CPZ signs do not govern P&D bays, and in any case, without a sign next to the bay, there is no way a motorist could even know whether it is a P&D bay. I cannot accept the decision to reject my informal representation, and maintain that there is no signage pertaining to this bay, rendering it unenforceable.

 

I believe this is a clear-cut case, and hope that you will agree that this PCN is not valid.

 

Your, etc

[afrik]

My advice to people is always the same - strip out everything which does (...)

 

 

 

Jamberson and others, many thanks for your advice.

I have submitted my challenge online and I'm awaiting response.

Will update you on the progress. Thanks!

[afrik]

Hello All,

Finally I have received a response from Manchester City Council. My Appeal has been rejected.

 

NOTICE OF REJECTION OF REPRESENTATIONS

Thank you for your letter, which we received on XXX

The representations that you made in respect of the Notice to Owner dated XXX which was served on you in respect of the above parking contravention have been considered by Manchester City Council (the Enforcement Authority) and have been rejected for the following reasons.

You were given a parking ticket for parking in a Pay & Display bay without a Pay & Display ticket. The Civil Enforcement Officer's notes, made when giving your parking ticket, state that you were not displaying a Pay & Display ticket. Even if you buy a ticket, it is not permitted to park without displaying it. I have noted the comments you have made in your letter regarding where you had parked. However, I am aware you do not live in Manchester. It is the driver's responsibility to ensure that they have checked the Controlled Parking Zone boundary signs and road marking then park correctly within the regulations. Please see the link below for images and evidence that you were parked in contravention of the parking rules*. Therefore, I am satisfied that your parking ticket was issued correctly.

*-The link is actually not provided

 

I was hoping the whole process would end on my last appeal instead I have the same feeling, as previously, that they don’t even try to respond to my defence line that there is inadequate signage.

As I understand the next step is Traffic Penalty Tribunal (TPT) and 3 types of hearing (personal, telephone, postal). On one hand I’d prefer personal one so I have some insight to what is actually happening, on the other I don’t want to waste a day on that and inevitably money (would have to take a day off most probably). There’s also a telephone option which I will consider.

 

What would you recommend in that situation? Is TPT fair enough to leave that to postal option?

[Michael Browne]

Personal hearing is always the best option, you can choose the venue nearest to you:

http://www.parking-adjudication.gov.uk/olappeals/hearingvenues.asp.

 

But whichever method you choose, you have nothing to lose. You will not be liable for anything more than the present full penalty charge.

 

 

I have noted the comments you have made in your letter regarding where you had parked.

 

Along with all your other points you can add procedural impropriety, since they have not addressed the lack of signage at all.

[afrik]

Hello All,

 

 

I have just received a confirmation from Appeals Coordinator that Manchester Council provided a bundle of evidence in relation to that case. I have as well received a copy.

The letter states that any comment on or response to the Council's evidence must be submitted in writing to the Tribunal. Does that mean there will not be a personal hearing (my preferred method) ?

 

 

Also, in order to prepare properly for the hearing could you please direct me to documents/regulations that explain signage requirements, especially in relation to my case? A lot of stuff I found quite often I find it hard to understand, hence will not be able to communicate that.

 

 

Thanks for your support,

a.

[Jamberson]

I think it is usual in these cases for both sides to exchange documents they intend to refer to in the hearing, and that is done by sending them to the tribunal beforehand. The council will presumably have done so, and copied them to you. I don't think you need to send the council anything, let alone comment on their documents - but check the paperwork from TPT on the correct procedure. You will need to send them any papers you want to refer to - photos, copies of letters and so on. No need to duplicate anything in the council's bundle - that will be on the table to be looked at anyway, if they have submitted it and you can draw the adjudicator's attention to it if you wish, during the proceedings.

 

If you asked for a hearing, that is what will happen. The council cannot deny it to you, and there's no reason to think TPT have declined your application - give them a bell and check, if you want to put your mind at rest. I imagine they are in the process of scheduling it now. (You might also want to ask them the deadline for submitting your documents.)

 

What documents/regulations will you need to quote? Probably none. I think your principle task is to convince the person hearing the case that your parking bay was isolated from any others and had no signs governing it. Any images, statements the council made to you in their letters, that sort of thing - should be included in your bundle of documents. Make it as slam-dunk convincing as you possibly can that on that day, there was no sign. I really believe you can't lose, if you prove the case. Even if you can't prove it, I would still hope you would win.

 

If you can convince the adjudicator that there was no sign, quoting laws saying there has to be one is needless. It would be like quoting legislation to a judge, to prove that shoplifting is illegal - they know all it already.

 

If there are specific things in the council's bundle which you don't understand, feel free to ask.