Rights to keys of a house jointly owned?? Please help!

[The Mould]

I am just back from visiting. It resulted in him punching me. I rang the police and they came out. But due to the fact that I don't have any marks from where he punched me and he now has a scratch mark on his face from me trying to push him away from me and his shirt is torn because I grabbed onto it when I was falling, the police have stated that there is more evidence that I assaulted him regardless of witness statements. Apparently he won't press charges if I don't. I'm in pieces. All I want to do is have him out of my life completely.

 

In these circumstances, I repeat my post #19.

 

Stay away from this thing, instruct your sols to legally remove your name from the title deeds.

 

Do not send any further correspondence to this bastard, protect your children and yourself.

 

Start the Court action, because this is necessary. The mortgage company has no authority as to your standing in this matter, state to them in a brief letter that as you are being deprived of your rights and status in the said property, that you will no longer pay any monies due thereon, you are taking legal action and that they ought to revert the matter back to Mr xyz as regards due payments that you no longer accept responsibility for due to his unlawful actions in refusing you access and occupation of the said property, and that it is your understanding that his status places him in a position to pay the full amount due each month rather than the reduced payments currently agreed with them to which you are not recognised in law as a party to such and cannot, therefore, be held liable for such in the light of the foregoing.

 

You respectfully request that they forward the relevant forms and state the fee required in order for your name to be legally removed from the title deeds of said property within 14 days, or you will commence with legal action on the same without further reference to them and seek your costs for such.

 

You sincerely hope that the above stated action will not become necessary and you look forward to receiving their response hereto within 14 days with a view to resolve this matter.

 

Thank you in advance for your consideration and attention to this important matter.

 

Yours faithfully

 

The Mould

[allieeyes]

I've just been cautioned for assault :'-( I have to stay in n.ireland until the case has been put forward to the ppi (I think) I'm probably going to lose my job

[The Mould]

I've just been cautioned for assault :'-( I have to stay in n.ireland until the case has been put forward to the ppi (I think) I'm probably going to lose my job

 

I repeat my post # 26. Stay away from this evil and use the law to free yourself from his deliberate attempts to break you and ware you down.

 

Please listen and follow my advice Watson. Forget the house, forget the so-called man who lives there, you can use the law to set you free from this suffocating mess which will ensure that you and your children are set free therefrom and will defy gravity along the safe shores of heaven.

 

Consult with your instructed solicitors on the morrow and insist that they undertake your instructions in this matter, first letter to your ex and second letter to mortgage co. response required from both that is satisfactory as regards your lawful position in this matter, failing which, legal action will commence in order to protect and obtain your financial interests in the said property.

 

Do not fear Watson, I have had battles with things that are not of this world, they scare me, but I still fight for my life and laugh in their faces, they are wimps and feed on fear.

 

The bloke you face is nothing in this world, he is a wimp, do not go to him and engage in battle with him.

 

Your children and yourself are far more important and I tell you Watson, soon this matter will be over and you will be free from the suffering it has caused and you and your children will breath air that no man has poisoned.

 

Take your fight with mortgage company, they want their money, if they are frightened into thinking that your ex cannot pay and that you refuse to pay, they will act and tell them that your ex can't afford the normal monthly payments due and that they ought to request his income and expenditure list.

 

Either way, state to mortgage Co, that you and your ex have separated and that you are not goping to pay a penny towards the mortgage regardless of any contract because you have been deprived of your rights under that contract!

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

Edited October 9, 2013 by slick132
Unnecessary bad language removed

[allieeyes]

Sorry for late reply, I've only stopped crying if I'm honest. I didn't want this mess, I just want free of him so I can completely move on without him in my nightmares. When you say to write a letter to my ex, do you mean just a copy of the letter I'm sending to the mortgage company? I'm going to go into my solicitors in the morning so hopefully she will see me instead of fobbing me off over the phone.

[The Mould]

Sorry for late reply, I've only stopped crying if I'm honest. I didn't want this mess, I just want free of him so I can completely move on without him in my nightmares. When you say to write a letter to my ex, do you mean just a copy of the letter I'm sending to the mortgage company? I'm going to go into my solicitors in the morning so hopefully she will see me instead of fobbing me off over the phone.

 

If your solicitors fob you off, come back here and I will write a letter for you to send to mortgage Co, that will put the fear of god in them.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[allieeyes]

I will Thankyou, I can't put into words how much I appreciate your help, I just hope it works. I don't hold much hope though, my ex has always managed to convince people that he's right, if someone had blue eyes he could convince them that they were brown.

[allieeyes]

Just seen my solicitor, we are applying for a non molestation order against him but we don't think it will be granted due to me no longer residing in n.ireland however we are going to try to state the case that we are back during school holidays. In reference to the house proceedings, apparently the only option is to begin equity proceedings which are lengthly and expensive, they have to be started in n.ireland due to the property being there but my solicitor wasn't sure whether I should go bankrupt in Scotland or n.ireland as the Scottish one may not stand in my favour as much as the n.ireland one which was bound to be the result since it's roughly £750 in charges in n.ireland and only £100ish in Scotland. I'm living in Scotland not England as I previously stated, don't know why I said England, automatic survival kicking in or something...I don't know. Apparently the big issue is getting my name off the mortgage which is essentially up to the mortgage company Is this what everyone on here would agree? I am really thankful of all of your help, you have given me some strength today in hoping that there may be light at the end of the tunnel.

[The Mould]

Just seen my solicitor, we are applying for a non molestation order against him but we don't think it will be granted due to me no longer residing in n.ireland however we are going to try to state the case that we are back during school holidays. In reference to the house proceedings, apparently the only option is to begin equity proceedings which are lengthly and expensive, they have to be started in n.ireland due to the property being there but my solicitor wasn't sure whether I should go bankrupt in Scotland or n.ireland as the Scottish one may not stand in my favour as much as the n.ireland one which was bound to be the result since it's roughly £750 in charges in n.ireland and only £100ish in Scotland. I'm living in Scotland not England as I previously stated, don't know why I said England, automatic survival kicking in or something...I don't know. Apparently the big issue is getting my name off the mortgage which is essentially up to the mortgage company Is this what everyone on here would agree? I am really thankful of all of your help, you have given me some strength today in hoping that there may be light at the end of the tunnel.

 

Yes, you must insist that your name is removed from thedeeds, because you are being deprived of your lawful and exclusive rights toaccess the property and reside there pursuant to the mortgage contract, inthese circumstances, you refuse to honour the mortgage contract, the purpose upon which you entered intosuch is no longer extant.

You have separated from Mr xyz and it is your understandingthat he cannot afford the monthly payments due thereon each month. State thatany agreement entered into with them and Mr xyz to make reduced monthlypayments is not a contract to which you are bound by, because you did not enterinto any such contract and are, therefore, a stranger to the same and if heshould default thereon, they will have no right recognised in law to pursue youfor the same.

State that you repudiate on the original mortgage contractto said property on the grounds that mortgage co. are allowing Mr xyz todeprive you of your lawful rights and benefits therein.

In the light of the foregoing you respectfully request thatthey forward to you the necessary forms to legally remove your name from thedeeds to said property and confirm the fee for such within the next 14 days,failing which, you will seek a Court Order for the same, since it isinequitable to hold you legally responsible for a mortgage on said property, whenmortgage co is fully aware that your rights under the mortgage contract aredeprived and they are a party which is consciously acting against your exclusive rights to accessand occupy the said property.

You are exercising your rights under law to remove your namefrom these said deeds on said property and you are acknowledging that you willno longer honour the contract in these circumstances, which they cannot refute, therefore, all monies owing thereunderought to be sought from Mr xyz.

As regards the foregoing, you respectfully request theirfull response to the same within 14 days of receipt hereof.

Thank you in advance for your consideration and urgentattention hereto.

I look forward to receiving your response to this importantmatter that will contain a satisfactory resolution for me to this matter.

Yours faithfully

Mrs xyz

Kick your sols up the arse and get them to act for you!!!And start fighting your corner and your rights!!!

Stay away from the evilman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many more times do I need to advise you to stay awayfrom him?

Kind regards

The Mould

[raydetinu]

I really cant see how this would work? Their circumstances have nothing to do with lender!

However I do agree that they cant enter into an agreement with only one party.

There may be case for giving up her half of the property and transferring to the lender in exchange for being removed from any further liability!

Still other party would have to agree tho

solicitor required here I think!

[The Mould]

The mortgage Co. has agreed a contract to accept lesserpayments each month from Mr xyz. Novation has occurred and been agreed betweenonly two parties in this matter, the third lawful party, Mrs xyz is not a partyto such and was not consulted on this new agreement, and her agreement wasrequired in this matter, since she is joint owner. The mortgage co have made a new agreementwith Mr xyz that clearly contravenes the original agreement, they have ineffect repudisated on their agreement made with Mr & Mrs xyz (I know youare not married) but as an equal partner to original mortgage contract, Mrs xyz’sagreement to the new agreement was required, since it was not requested andobtained by mortgage Co, Mrs xyz cannot be held liable for the same.

Mrs xyz is not a party to this new contract, if Mr xyz defaults on the same, they cannot pursue Mrs xyz for monies owed under theoriginal contract, because novation has occurred and been agreed between Mr xyzand mortgage Co, Mrs xyz is not a party to such which the law can hold herliable for any default thereon. Themortgage Co. has not covered itself on this new contract and cannot hold Mrsxyz liable for the same in the event of default by Mr xyz.

Solicitors acting for Mrs xyz must insist on the formalitiesto remove Mrs xyz from the deeds to said property. Mortgage Co do not have grounds to refuse,Mrs xyz is joint owner and her excliusive rights of sesisin in said propertyunder the mortgage contract is deprived; the Mortgage Co is fully aware ofthese facts and have in fact entered into a new contract with Mr xyz.

Mrs xyz has the grounds to seek removal of her name fromtitle deeds of said property, mortgage Co has no grounds to deny this lawfulrequest. Mr xyz can then go off intooblivion.

Kind regards

The Mould

PS. I cannot edit my posts, therefore, I am unable toproperly space out my sentences which are cut and pasted hereto.

Edited October 10, 2013 by ims21
Bad language herein has been edited from same!

[raydetinu]

I agree in principle with what you say, but the law has to argued, possibly in court or by mutual agreement of all the parties.

Maybe the lender just agreed to accept half the payment from mr x as pragmatic solution rather repossession of the property; but the sum lent still has to be repaid

We are not party to the agreement, only supposition on our part!

I think solicitors need to establish with the lender the terms of any agreement and what's necessary to change the deeds.

A search of the land registry for the property may reveal if any changes to the interest and mortgage has been lodged.

They will not change anything without a legal document that approves it.

[The Mould]

I agree in principle with what you say, but the law has to argued, possibly in court or by mutual agreement of all the parties.

Maybe the lender just agreed to accept half the payment from mr x as pragmatic solution rather repossession of the property; but the sum lent still has to be repaid

We are not party to the agreement, only supposition on our part!

I think solicitors need to establish with the lender the terms of any agreement and what's necessary to change the deeds.

A search of the land registry for the property may reveal if any changes to the interest and mortgage has been lodged.

They will not change anything without a legal document that approves it.

 

The sum lent still has to be repaid, but only by Mr x, because Mrs x was not a party to new agreement, therefore, she has grounds to remove her name from title deeds as she is being denied her rights over any new agreement to the original mortgage contract and her rights to seisin of the property.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[raydetinu]

We do not know what the terms of the agreement are, not even Mrs X knows either as she was not consulted or represented, notified!

She can certainly ask the lender what the current situation is and what they think her liability is!

Legal eagles need to be involved I think!.

I know what you are saying sounds right, but just saying it does not make it so!

[The Mould]

The mortgage co have made a new agreement with Mr x, Mrs xis not a party to the same, the mortgage co has in effect repudiated on itsagreement with Mrs x, therefore, Mrs x has grounds to remove her name fromtitle deeds and she cannot be liable for any monies owing thereon because sheis not a party to new agreement made between Mr x and mortgage co.

The original agreement has been amended between two parties,novation has occurred thereon, Mrs x has been excluded from the same and is nota party to the same, her rights under the original agreement have beendisregarded and abandoned by mortgage co. The mortgage co is in fundamental breach of its obligations owed to Mrsx under original contract.

She must insist on her lawful rights to remove her name fromtitle deeds on the grounds of all material posted here by me.

If your sols are not undertaking your instructions,terminate with them and instruct proper independent professionals to take upyour case in this matter!

Kind regards

The Mould

[steampowered]

This is a really difficult situation created by circumstances which are not your fault. But with the greatest respect, I cannot agree with advice given in relation to the mortgage company. You can't force the lender to insist on your ex making full payments. Legally you are jointly liable for the whole debt and it is not the lender's concern where the money comes from or who is living in the house.

 

I don't agree that there is any real basis for saying there is a novation here. As a matter of law a novation requires full agreement from all three parties as to the terms of a replacement contract, which is not the case here. A lender is perfectly entitled to waive its rights to require full payment without there being a novation.

 

There is no legal mechanism to force the lender to release you from the mortgage debt. Being released from the mortgage debt is not the same thing as being removed from the title deeds. Ownership of the property and the debt owed under the loan agreement are two different things.

 

I don't think there is any point bringing equity proceedings. There is no equity in the house so you would get nothing. It would also result in the debt becoming immediately due and payable, and would not help with your credit record. In any event, I think it is very unlikely that the court would ever grant an order for sale over a house in negative equity without lender consent.

 

I'm afraid I am also doubtful about your chances of getting a non-molestation order. You will have difficulty persuading a court that a domestic violence order is necessary when you no longer live in the same country as your ex. You may be able to get some sort of order about residence to get him out of the property if you want to live there instead.

 

I can see three options. First option is to do nothing. This may feel wrong but financially it could be the best option. If the husband is paying the mortgage that will stop the mortgage company from pursuing you for the debt. Who knows, in 10 years time he might have paid enough for the house to be in positive equity and you could then force a sale which would get you a windfall. The second option is to apply for a family law order that the husband leaves the property. I can only see this option working if you intend to live in the property, it won't work if you intend to remain in England: the court is not going to make an order which would result in the property remaining vacant. The third option is to apply for bankruptcy. The big advantage of this option is that you would escape the mortgage debt. Your credit rating would be bad for 6 years but I guess it is already pretty bad, and you would at least have a completely fresh start afterwards.

[raydetinu]

Tend to agree; That is what I was trying to say.

IMHO; if you are not being chased for the debt, let it go and see what happens and stay well away.

In a few years if nothing happens you may be in a position to pick it up again.

[The Mould]

This is a really difficult situation created by circumstances which are not your fault. But with the greatest respect, I cannot agree with advice given in relation to the mortgage company. You can't force the lender to insist on your ex making full payments. Legally you are jointly liable for the whole debt and it is not the lender's concern where the money comes from or who is living in the house.

 

I don't agree that there is any real basis for saying there is a novation here. As a matter of law a novation requires full agreement from all three parties as to the terms of a replacement contract, which is not the case here. A lender is perfectly entitled to waive its rights to require full payment without there being a novation.

 

There is no legal mechanism to force the lender to release you from the mortgage debt. Being released from the mortgage debt is not the same thing as being removed from the title deeds. Ownership of the property and the debt owed under the loan agreement are two different things.

 

I don't think there is any point bringing equity proceedings. There is no equity in the house so you would get nothing. It would also result in the debt becoming immediately due and payable, and would not help with your credit record. In any event, I think it is very unlikely that the court would ever grant an order for sale over a house in negative equity without lender consent.

 

I'm afraid I am also doubtful about your chances of getting a non-molestation order. You will have difficulty persuading a court that a domestic violence order is necessary when you no longer live in the same country as your ex. You may be able to get some sort of order about residence to get him out of the property if you want to live there instead.

 

I can see three options. First option is to do nothing. This may feel wrong but financially it could be the best option. If the husband is paying the mortgage that will stop the mortgage company from pursuing you for the debt. Who knows, in 10 years time he might have paid enough for the house to be in positive equity and you could then force a sale which would get you a windfall. The second option is to apply for a family law order that the husband leaves the property. I can only see this option working if you intend to live in the property, it won't work if you intend to remain in England: the court is not going to make an order which would result in the property remaining vacant. The third option is to apply for bankruptcy. The big advantage of this option is that you would escape the mortgage debt. Your credit rating would be bad for 6 years but I guess it is already pretty bad, and you would at least have a completely fresh start afterwards.

 

novation n. agreement of parties to a contract to substitute a newcontract for the old one. It extinguishes (cancels) the old agreement. Anovation is often used when the parties find that payments or performancecannot be made under the terms of the original agreement, or the debtor will beforced to default or go into bankruptcy unless the debt is restructured. (my empathies added) Whilevoluntary, a novation is often the only way any funds can be paid

In contract law and business law, novation is the act of either:

1. replacing an obligation to perform with a new obligation;(my emphasis added) or
   
2. replacing a party to an agreement with a new party.
   

novation

n

1. (Law) Law the substitution of a newobligation for an old one by mutualagreement between the parties, esp of one debtor or creditor foranother, in this case there are three parties to the original contract.

A novation is a trilateral agreement by which anexisting contract is extinguished and a new contract brought into being in itsplace. Indeed, for an agreement to effect a valid novation the appropriateconsideration is the discharge of the original debt in return for a promise toperform some obligation. The assent of the beneficiary (the creditor ormortgagee) of those obligations to the discharge and substitution is crucial.This is because the effect of novation is that the creditor may no longer lookto the original party if the obligations under the substituted contract are notsubsequently met as promised.

Novation has occurred in thismatter, one obligation under the original contract, namely the paymentobligation has been replaced with a new payment obligation thereunder; thethird party – Mrs x, has beenexcluded from the same, therefore, the novation is not valid in law and she isnot liable for such if Mr x defaults thereon.

Would you sit back and do nothing for 1 year or a hundred years if youwere unjustly and unlawfully deprived of your seisin rights to a property thatyou jointly owned and were liable for the balance owed thereon? I doubt very much that you would.

The only thing that you are correct on in this matter is that themortgage lender does not care who or where the monthly payments come from. Mrs x has a right to make a request tomortgage co to remove her name from the title deeds and if they refuse, she hasgrounds to seek an Order from the Court for such, because the mortgage Co andMr x are making and entering into new agreements which exclude Mrs x and Mr xis unlawfully depriving Mrs x of her seisin rights to the property.

I do not wish to engage in argument with you (or any member of CAG), andmean no disrespect towards you, you clearly disagree with my posts here, you areentitled to do so, but please refrain from declaring that my knowledge as tonovation and contract law in this particular case/thread is wrong, because I amnot wrong and have set out material above which clearly demonstrates this.

I am simply trying to help this lady and looking at all angles and legalpossibilities for her in order to try and ease her suffering from the wrongthat has been caused to her by a man who is clearly a very nasty piece of work.

Mrs x, forget the police and stay away from this evil thing.

Thank you in advance for your consideration Steam.

Kind regards

The Mould

[raydetinu]

I don't think anybody is totally disagreeing with you in principle, its just that to sort it some sort of legal process has to be gone through, either between the parties directly or through the courts.

And it would appear that only the OP can start this process, if she wishes to!

It would then be up to the parties if they agree with you or a judge does.

As said a letter or email to the lender may be the first step to establish what terms they are currently working to and how it came about.

[steampowered]

Hi Mould

 

I think the key part of your post is 'A novation is a trilateral agreement'. Here there is no agreement from the bank to release the Op from the mortgage debt, so I'm struggling to see how there could be a novation. I can't see any magic bullet here.

 

Op please feel free to ask for any further advice/input that is required. I think the best thing is to think about where you would like to be in 5-10 years time and we can help you get there ... your goal might be a clean break from the ex, it might be living in the house, or it might be hoping to recover some of your initial investment ... your end-goal will determine what is the best option for you to get there.

[allieeyes]

Sorry for the delay in commenting, I haven't had the energy to do anything apart from look after my daughter.

 

The last time we were in court (November 2011) the mortgage company were going to reposess but didn't because my ex partner lied and said that he could only afford a small repayment. The Master agreed to this repayment plan even though I said that I would not be paying anything towards the house and wanted off the mortgage and deeds.

 

In 5 - 10 years time I would like to be happy again and have no financial or property ties to my ex. I don't care if he keeps the house but I want off the deeds and mortgage.

 

I asked my solicitor last week if by me going bankrupt would help my case and she said it would push along equity proceedings but she was unsure of whether I would have to go bankrupt in Scotland or Northern Ireland. In Northern Ireland it is over £700 and in Scotland it is £100 so obviously it would be financially easier to be declared bankrupt in Scotland but I don't know whether it would include the mortgage since it is based on a property in Northern Ireland.

 

Bottom line, I want away from my ex and the property. Yes I would be saying that if there was equity in it. I don't want anything from him or to do with him.

[steampowered]

If you are living in Scotland it is probably best to go bankrupt in Scotland. I'm not sure how the process works in Scotland, but in England/Wales you would generally need to meet with the Official Receiver. My understanding is that a bankruptcy in Scotland should be respected in other EU member states and should free you from the mortgage debt.

[allieeyes]

Even though when I moved to Scotland. I had to get a new child benefit number and a new medical number because they claimed that Northern Ireland was not part of the UK (even though I have a British passport??)

[steampowered]

Yes, there is a specific EU regulation which basically provides that bankruptcy in one EU member state must be recognised in other EU member states. Have a read of http://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/CaseHelpManual/C/Cross%20Border%20Insolve.htm. I can't promise there won't be any bureaucracy or any difficulties, but that is the legal position.

 

Do you have any other assets, such as savings or any other property? Remember that bankruptcy would affect these.

[allieeyes]

I don't have any savings or properties, I'm living in a rental and any savings I do build up pay for us to go home to Northern Ireland to visit our family.

 

Any idea roughly how much equity proceedings would be?

[BazzaS]

Even though when I moved to Scotland. I had to get a new child benefit number and a new medical number because they claimed that Northern Ireland was not part of the UK (even though I have a British passport??)

 

I don't know about child benefit but Northern Ireland is part of the 4 Nations of the UK... (The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland).

 

Great Britain has the National Health Service in the 3 nations of England, Scotland and Wales. Northern Ireland doesn't have the NHS, but has its own organisation HSC (Health and Social Care).

 

HSC numbers are independant from NHS numbers, and it is entirely possible to have both (as both you and I do!)

 

A bankruptcy in one of the 4 nations making up the UK would be recognized in the other 3 nations too.