HMRC threatening debt collector

[pj2017]

Dear all, my income has been declining for many years, and I have struggled with self-assessment tax bills that relate to previous years when I was earning more.

 

I got my accounts for 2012/13 and paid what I could in July (1st payment on account) - but with £500 left outstanding.

 

I thought I might be able to pay 2 or 3 months late - there will be no penalty as I got the return in, and they have stated the interest is 4p a day.

 

But they sent a letter on Aug 28th reminding me to pay. Then on September 10th they sent another letter reminding me, now saying debt collectors might become involved - only 2 weeks after the first reminder.

 

I think I'll have the money in about a month's time. So I'm trying to just let it ride and let them stamp their tiny feet in the meanwhile.

 

Has anyone else managed to fend these people off for a few months?

[rds60h]

The debt collectors are really quite harmless as they have no real powers in enforcing the debt, however I would suggest that you write a letter to HMRC stating that you have received the debt collectors letter but that you wish to deal direct with them and explain your situation and say that you need 2-3 months before you will be able to pay. If you have informed them that they will get their money within a certain timescale there shouldn't be a problem.

I would also ask them to suspend the daily interest as that is also affecting your ability to pay. They may or may not do that but it is certainly worth a try.

[pj2017]

Thanks for that. I have got the debt collectors letter yet - just a letter from HMRC, probably computer generated, stating they might involve a DCA.

[Heamoor]

I am going through the same thing but for a lot more debt than you, I paying weekly , no plan, but have wrote asking for a payment plan, not sure if they are going to reply, thy receive my letter 25.09 , revived another threatening letter today

[honeybee13]

Hello Heamor.

 

If you have questions, please start your own thread so that advice for you doesn't get mixed up with advice for other people on their threads.

 

My best, HB

[Heamoor]

Hello Heamor.

 

 

 

If you have questions, please start your own thread so that advice for you doesn't get mixed up with advice for other people on their threads.

 

 

 

My best, HB

 

 

I didn't ask any questions , was simply letting the forum poster aware they wernt the only one in that situation.

Sorry I didn't think it was something that needed to be on a fresh post!

[pj2017]

Thanks all. I got 2 letters, but have since paid £200. I still owe £300, but the fact I've paid something seems to have stopped the letters for a while.

[pj2017]

I submit my accounts on time, but I couldn't a pay the whole (self-assessment) amount in January, and left £600 outstanding, and I have now paid £300 of this and am waiting for a payment from a client (which may take 2 or 3 weeks to arrive) to clear the final £300.

 

They are putting interest on - but it is only pennies at the moment. My main concern is HMRC are now sending me letters highlighted in red saying "we can now pass this to a DCA".

 

I don't really want to phone up HMRC as a supplicant - as the whole setup of personal taxation is a violation of our original Common Law, so I don't owe it, and in my eyes this is just demanding money with menaces. They're unlikely to be interested in my view on it - but I don't want to phone them. They are the scroungers for demanding money from me to spend on themselves.

 

Is a DCA likely to become involved for just £300? Does anyone know the limit on this? What level is too low? Their letter to me today demanded £600, so their system hasn't even registered the fact I've paid half of this, although logging onto self-assessment online I see they have received it.

[BazzaS]

 

I don't really want to phone up HMRC as a supplicant - as the whole setup of personal taxation is a violation of our original Common Law, so I don't owe it, and in my eyes this is just demanding money with menaces. They're unlikely to be interested in my view on it -

 

Surely you need to separate out the two issues:

a) HMRC's debt handling procedures.

b) your apparent belief that HMRC's application of the personal taxation laws shouldn't apply to you.

[pj2017]

BazzaS - what personal taxation laws? The Queen is required by the Coronation Oath to govern us according to English Common Law and has no authority to institute a permanent income tax.

 

Clearly, you don't have an answer to my question!

[cat10]

My advice would be to tell them the situation and you will pay the balance owing once funds are available in the next month.They will continue to add interest,but as you have said its pennies.Don't let it escalate,if you do you will have to still deal with it and pay penalties.Yes a DCA will get involved for that amount.

[pj2017]

Cat10, what are the penalties involved in it going to a DCA?

[pj2017]

There are no penalties for payments on account, right? And this is the 1st payment on account for the year ending April 2014.

 

It is very frustrating to have to deal with these people.

Edited March 29, 2014 by honeybee13
Pejorative term.

[cat10]

Interest will continue to be added for a start,as you have said you filed on time so no penalties there.

All I'm trying to say speak to them,i totally respect your views,but this will not go away.You will find in the end that you are hassled by a DCA.After all that you will still have to deal with HMRC.

[rebel11]

Have to agree, contact them, just ask for however long you need. The thing that annoys them the most is people ignoring them, not communicating with them. You contact them, they put a note on your account, they give you more time and they leave you alone.

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/payinghmrc/problems/cantpay.htm

 

My advice would be to tell them the situation and you will pay the balance owing once funds are available in the next month.They will continue to add interest,but as you have said its pennies.Don't let it escalate,if you do you will have to still deal with it and pay penalties.Yes a DCA will get involved for that amount.

[BazzaS]

BazzaS - what personal taxation laws? The Queen is required by the Coronation Oath to govern us according to English Common Law and has no authority to institute a permanent income tax.

 

Clearly, you don't have an answer to my question!

 

Common law recognises parliamentary supremacy (statute) as able to override case law.

 

Personal income tax isn't permanent.

It is unlikely a parliament would choose to remove income tax : but it could.

 

Clearly you've been trying to find reasons not to pay tax.

I take it you want to opt out from (driving on public roads / NHS care/ anything else funded from taxation)

[rds60h]

Have to agree, contact them, just ask for however long you need. The thing that annoys them the most is people ignoring them, not communicating with them. You contact them, they put a note on your account, they give you more time and they leave you alone.

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/payinghmrc/problems/cantpay.htm

 

Sometimes !!

I have had on-going problems with them and it has got to the point that sometimes I reply others I don't. Because I have had queries sent to me from over 15 different office addresses, supposedly about the same problem but with different amounts and in one case telling me that part of the problem was that I had not completed part of a form properly and that particular part of the form was only for Clergymen, which I am definitely not.

I'm afraid that in some cases the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and they do not appear to have any inter-office communication.

[rebel11]

To be honest they make loads of mistakes, but that's all we have to work with. When they get things wrong, nail them down, ask for compensation. Follow the complaints procedure.

 

Sometimes !!

I have had on-going problems with them and it has got to the point that sometimes I reply others I don't. Because I have had queries sent to me from over 15 different office addresses, supposedly about the same problem but with different amounts and in one case telling me that part of the problem was that I had not completed part of a form properly and that particular part of the form was only for Clergymen, which I am definitely not.

I'm afraid that in some cases the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and they do not appear to have any inter-office communication.

[rds60h]

To be honest they make loads of mistakes, but that's all we have to work with. When they get things wrong, nail them down, ask for compensation. Follow the complaints procedure.

 

Thank you for your reply Rebel11; I must admit I have never considered the formal complaint route, so I now have a new avenue to progress things.

Much appreciated.

By the way my intention was not to reject what you were saying as that has in some points been the outcome, I just intended to inform that it might not always go that way.

[rebel11]

No problem:- http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/complaints-appeals/how-to-complain/make-complaint.htm

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/factsheets/complaints-factsheet.pdf

 

Thank you for your reply Rebel11; I must admit I have never considered the formal complaint route, so I now have a new avenue to progress things.

Much appreciated.

By the way my intention was not to reject what you were saying as that has in some points been the outcome, I just intended to inform that it might not always go that way.

[pj2017]

Common law recognises parliamentary supremacy (statute) as able to override case law.

 

Personal income tax isn't permanent.

It is unlikely a parliament would choose to remove income tax : but it could.

 

Clearly you've been trying to find reasons not to pay tax.

I take it you want to opt out from (driving on public roads / NHS care/ anything else funded from taxation)

 

Common law is not just case law - a lot of case law is judges substituting their personal opinions for centuries of precedent. What I'm talking about is how the relatively recent introduction of personal taxation and everyone having to report their incomes to the state is a complete overturning of the traditional rights of the Englishman. It was established in the Peasants' Rebellion in 1389 there was no authority for personal taxation. The land tax and indirect taxes were the only forms of taxation in centuries past. It has most emphatically not always been held that Statute could overturn the Common Law - see the comments made on this by Sir Edward Coke, Lord Chief Justice in the early 1600s. So how has it come about that the state and the judges (who live off the taxes and don't want to shut down their own gravy train) have all agreed that the former understanding of the Common Law is no longer valid? Income tax is just emergency legislation - you could imagine it being introduced in a major national crisis or war - but not renewed again and again and again for more than 100 years.

 

BazzaS is misinformed if he thinks the state has no sources of revenue other than personal taxation, which is less than half the total. Heard of VAT? Heard of corporate taxation? You seem to think the huge state spending half of GDP is "just how it has always been since the Norman Conquest". The state has the money to pay for roads without personal taxation - and medical care should be an insurance system as elsewhere in Europe.

[pj2017]

Have to agree, contact them, just ask for however long you need. The thing that annoys them the most is people ignoring them, not communicating with them. You contact them, they put a note on your account, they give you more time and they leave you alone.

 

 

My problem is that contacting them to "beg" for a delay validates demanding money with menaces on their part. To do so would reinforce their own narcissistic views about the rightfulness of their imposts and their salaries, pensions, expenses and jollies. There is no such thing as a tax "debt" - it is not consumer credit you've taken out - it is just an impost - no different to a criminal gang demanding protection money from businesses.

[BazzaS]

BazzaS is misinformed if he thinks the state has no sources of revenue other than personal taxation, which is less than half the total. Heard of VAT? Heard of corporate taxation?

 

I never said I thought the state has no source of revenue other than personal tax- no need to "put words in my mouth".

I'm aware that some jurisdictions (eg Dubai) have no personal taxation and raise revenue by eg VAT.

In fact, I said it was possible (but unlikely) Parliament could choose not to use income taxation : you no doubt recall that you were describing it as "permanent income tax", and I was highlighting it wasn't "permanent"!

 

The state has the money to pay for roads without personal taxation - and medical care should be an insurance system as elsewhere in Europe.

 

In the same way as you decided what I'd said when I hadn't, you've now chosen what the state should spend its money ( raised other than by personal taxation) on and also how it should fund the NHS.

 

Thing is, you can WISH what I'd said but it doesn't make it so.

You can WISH how the government spends but can't make it so ( though you can always vote accordingly).

You can WISH for the abolition of personal taxation : but until it happens you'll need to pay your tax rather than look for loopholes.

 

BTW : the answer to your question is within my previous posts that regard dealing with HMRC and their debt management procedures, the majority of which manuals HMRC place in the public domain.

 

My problem is that contacting them to "beg" for a delay validates demanding money with menaces on their part. To do so would reinforce their own narcissistic views about the rightfulness of their imposts and their salaries, pensions, expenses and jollies. There is no such thing as a tax "debt" - it is not consumer credit you've taken out - it is just an impost - no different to a criminal gang demanding protection money from businesses.

 

Good luck arguing this with HMRC, and/or any court.

 

If you REALLY believe this (rather than grasping at straws to justify your non-payment of tax) : have you reported them to the police for "demanding money with menaces"?

Of course not.

[rebel11]

Hi pj2

 

There's a General Election coming up, you can stand as an independent if you wish, best way to go about abolishing taxes, that's a starting point, long way to go from there.

 

http://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/electing-mps/candidates/

[BazzaS]

Hi pj2

 

There's a General Election coming up, you can stand as an independent if you wish, best way to go about abolishing taxes, that's a starting point, long way to go from there.

 

http://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/electing-mps/candidates/

 

He's not suggesting abolishing taxes, just personal taxation : by a coincidence, that is the class of taxation HMRC are pursuing him for as he's not paid it in full ......