Training deductions

[nataku]

Hello!

 

I have a problem with my last employer, owner of the care home I worked for.

Due to certain mistake I've made I was put on garden leave, awaiting my disciplinary meeting.

On the day I had my disciplinary I provided the statement, prior to the meeting and gave my notice.

Chair of the meeting said they accept my notice, yet will go with the meeting as planned.

Although I provided mitigating circumstances I was found guilty and chair of the disciplinary hearing said 'had you not resigned we would sack you for gross misconduct'.

 

Few weeks after I received my final pay slip I opened it and BOOM - from my final wages a cost of £390 was deducted.

It stated is for the training.

 

I was working for that care home for over two months and was never given my contract of employment.

The training they provided was mandatory prior starting work in care setting and it was in-house training.

I don't agree with that charge and contacted CAB but after 1h20minutes on the phone they sent me to read some law documents from which I didn't understand a lot

 

I need the information - was the deduction of training costs in that case unfair?

Please, please help And in case it was unlawful for my ex employer to do so what legislation describes it?

 

Many thanks in advance!!

[Emmzzi]

Had you signed anything to say the cost of training was repayable if you left within X months? That's all that really matters.

[nataku]

Not to my knowledge. But as I said I have never received nor signed any contract of employment. Not sure if any training paragraphs were there.

[Conniff]

I think I would be brass necked enough to turn up on Monday and ask for 'a copy of my contract please'. You need it there and then and they must have a copy of the general contract of employment the use, so don't be fobbed of with 'we will post it to you'.

[nataku]

A friend of mine just provided me with this: w_w_w.hse.gov.uk/pubns/law.pdf Point 4 says:

 

What employers must do for you:

Free of charge, give you the health and safety training you need to do your job.

 

As I only received mandatory health and safety in-house training, should I write to my previous employer and question training deductions? Sorry but couldn't post a proper link

[becky2585]

They can't deduct the money without your consent. If there isn't a signed contract then I would suggest you look at a tribunal claim...

[steampowered]

The law you are looking for is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/13

 

An employer shall not make a deduction from wages of a worker employed by him unless—

(a)the deduction is required or authorised to be made by virtue of a statutory provision or a relevant provision of the worker’s contract, or

(b)the worker has previously signified in writing his agreement or consent to the making of the deduction.

 

Curiously, unless we are talking about tens of thousands I understand it is now a bit cheaper to bring unauthorised deduction claims in the county court than through an Employment Tribunal.

[becky2585]

The law you are looking for is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/13

 

An employer shall not make a deduction from wages of a worker employed by him unless—

(a)the deduction is required or authorised to be made by virtue of a statutory provision or a relevant provision of the worker’s contract, or

(b)the worker has previously signified in writing his agreement or consent to the making of the deduction.

 

Curiously, unless we are talking about tens of thousands I understand it is now a bit cheaper to bring unauthorised deduction claims in the county court than through an Employment Tribunal.

 

It's actually the same, as you get the Tribunal fees back from the Respondent if a Judgment is given (£390 for an unlawful deductions claim).

[nataku]

Just sent this email to my ex employer:

 

Dear Mr XXX,

 

I recently received my final payslip in the post.

On the payslip, dated xx/xx/xxxx, there is a deduction of £390.00 and it is stated that it is a 'Training Deduction'.

I must challenge that deduction and request a payment of the above sum in a reasonable time frame of 7 days.

 

I have contacted Citizens Advice Bureau and I believe that the mentioned Training Deduction made by YYY is unlawful.

The training that I have received from YYY was in-house training and it was required by law prior starting employment in a care setting.

Therefore w.w.w.hse.gov.uk/pubns/law.pdf point 4 applies:

 

What employers must do for you

 

4. Free of charge, give you the health and safety training you need to do your job

 

Also, regarding any deductions from wages, Employment Rights Act 1996 clearly states:

w.w.w.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/13

 

An employer shall not make a deduction from wages of a worker employed by him unless—

(a)the deduction is required or authorised to be made by virtue of a statutory provision or a relevant provision of the worker’s contract, or

 

(b)the worker has previously signified in writing his agreement or consent to the making of the deduction.

 

 

 

I would like to mention the fact that I was working for YYY for over two months.

In that time I cannot recall receiving nor signing a Contract of employment/Written statement of employment particulars.

 

Also I believe that after my resignation was accepted by YYY on xx/xx/xxxx my employment was ceased with immediate effect on that day and YYY did not follow the minimum notice period of one week, regulated by Emloyment Rights Act 1996.

 

You should be aware that it is unlawful to withhold payment of due wages without consent,by virtue of section 13 of the Employments Rights Act 1996.

Please accept this as formal notification that unless the full amount due and payable is not transferred into my account within 7 days of the above date,then I will pursue recovery in the Small Claims Court and be seeking costs.

 

In the alternative I will be seeking recourse by way of an Employment Tribunal.

 

I trust you will give this matter immediate attention,

 

And I got a response:

 

Hey XXX,

 

Thanks for your email.

 

I have had the sane response from the CAB a number of times, and as usual they have the wrong end of the stick.

 

Looks there was an error and you were not charged for your DBS, ISA First and badge.

 

I will confirm the increase sum in due course.

 

With kind regards,

 

 

What now? I feel like he's now trying to intimidate me

[Conniff]

Personally I would now send a Letter Before Action. Send it by Royal Mail recorded delivery.

[steampowered]

Yes, he is trying to intimidate you. The law on this is really very simple. Either they have an employment contract or a signed piece of paper which allows them to make deductions, or they do not.

 

He hasn't answered any the points you raise. Clearly he is not interested in debating the legal merits of the employer's position with you, so I am not sure you will achieve much by entering into an argument.

 

If it was me, I would write a very short email back which says nothing more than something like

Thank you for your email. I do not recall ever being provided with a copy of an employment contract or any other document authorising you to charge me for training. In order to avoid any confusion, please provide a copy of the document which you think entitles to make a wage deduction.

[Atlas01]

 

 

Thank you for your email. I was never issued with a copy of an employment contract or any other document which was signed with agreement for you to charge me for training or deductions for DBS on termination of employment. In order to avoid any confusion and resolve this matter without need for me to seek legal redress, please provide a copy (including my signature) of the document which you believe entitles to make a wage deduction.

 

slight edit of steams advice, take your pick

 

These shysters may bring the need to to issue court proceeding before they give you anything i'd guess but if that is the response you got (and you didn't leave bits out) i'd also expect a judge to view it as intimidating unless they had plenty in black and white explaining deductions pre-employment

[nataku]

Uhm I need a proper and adequate advice. Why would I leave any bits out?

I sent another email, pretty much a copy of what Steams wrote above and got a message back:

Of course. Not at the desk at the moment but happy to forward to you application form who h clearly states the terms of training

 

Never even heard of such document like terms of training in that company but hey ho - it is probably being produced now as we speak lol

 

Fed up with my last employer, going to CAB tomorrow with all my paperwork.

Also this week will have a meeting with a charity that deals with work related issues.

And definitely will give acas call on tomorrow.

 

I have given in so many times in my life. This time I will stand my ground and demand my rights to be respected.

[Emmzzi]

nataku, these helplines are badly stretched for resource. I am sure you do not need the help of 3 organisations; please just pick one!

[Conniff]

Uhm I need a proper and adequate advice. Why would I leave any bits out?

I sent another email, pretty much a copy of what Steams wrote above and got a message back:

 

 

Never even heard of such document like terms of training in that company but hey ho - it is probably being produced now as we speak lol

Fed up with my last employer, going to CAB tomorrow with all my paperwork.

Also this week will have a meeting with a charity that deals with work related issues.

And definitely will give acas call on tomorrow.

 

I have given in so many times in my life. This time I will stand my ground and demand my rights to be respected.

 

Which is why I said in post #4 to go in and ask for a copy there and then.

[steampowered]

Thanks Atlas01, its a great amendment.

 

I think it is best to wait and see what the application form says before you steam ahead too much. Ultimately it is difficult for people to advise you unless they know what the application form says. The difficulty with these things is that it is easy to forget what you signed several months ago.

[nataku]

The only reply I got so far is:

 

I'll confirm our position within the 28 day Acas guidelines.

 

What now?

[transient]

Either send a LBA or wait the 28 days. I would send a LBA

[steampowered]

Waiting 28 days for a response on this is not reasonable. I can see three options:

• Accept it.
  
• Write back explaining you are only looking for a copy of the document which allegedly shows you are liable for training costs. Not sure what 28 day limit he is referring to. In any event it should not take 28 days to scan in a copy of the application form and the ACAS guidelines state that grievances should be dealt with as "promptly as possible". Given that we are talking about unpaid wages it would be unreasonable to take 28 days to scan in a document.
  
• Write back explaining that the deadline under the Pre-Action Protocol of the Civil Procedure Rules for bringing a court claim is 14 days, and you will proceed to issue a claim if no response is received in that time.
  

You might not want to be too aggressive if you will need a reference from them. Personally I would go for the second option but its your call.

[nataku]

Already sent LBA

[nataku]

Thanks, will go for second option.

[Conniff]

Already sent LBA

 

Then make sure you follow it up and stick to that date by the minute. How long did you give them before you take action?

[nataku]

sent this on the 15th September:

 

Dear Mr XXX,

 

I recently received my final payslip in the post.

On the payslip, dated xx/xx/xxxx, there is a deduction of £390.00 and it is stated that it is a 'Training Deduction'.

I must challenge that deduction and request a payment of the above sum in a reasonable time frame of 7 days.

 

I have contacted Citizens Advice Bureau and I believe that the mentioned Training Deduction made by YYY is unlawful.

The training that I have received from YYY was in-house training and it was required by law prior starting employment in a care setting.

Therefore w.w.w.hse.gov.uk/pubns/law.pdf point 4 applies:

 

What employers must do for you

 

4. Free of charge, give you the health and safety training you need to do your job

 

Also, regarding any deductions from wages, Employment Rights Act 1996 clearly states:

w.w.w.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/13

 

An employer shall not make a deduction from wages of a worker employed by him unless—

(a)the deduction is required or authorised to be made by virtue of a statutory provision or a relevant provision of the worker’s contract, or

 

(b)the worker has previously signified in writing his agreement or consent to the making of the deduction.

 

 

 

I would like to mention the fact that I was working for YYY for over two months.

In that time I cannot recall receiving nor signing a Contract of employment/Written statement of employment particulars.

 

Also I believe that after my resignation was accepted by YYY on xx/xx/xxxx my employment was ceased with immediate effect on that day and YYY did not follow the minimum notice period of one week, regulated by Emloyment Rights Act 1996.

 

You should be aware that it is unlawful to withhold payment of due wages without consent,by virtue of section 13 of the Employments Rights Act 1996.

Please accept this as formal notification that unless the full amount due and payable is not transferred into my account within 7 days of the above date,then I will pursue recovery in the small claimsicon Court and be seeking costs.

 

In the alternative I will be seeking recourse by way of an Employment Tribunal.

 

I trust you will give this matter immediate attention,

[Emmzzi]

28 days = trying to spin it out past the point where you can apply to an ET

[nataku]

So what should I write to him then?

He still haven't provided me with that 'secret' document he mentioned before, that would allegedly allow him to deduct training costs from wages.

Should I still write to him (it's one day past the 7 days deadline that I gave him) or should I proceed with some other actions?

 

Damn, never had such a problem in my life and just don't know what to do...