Wrag and Seetec

[osdset]

I'm ESA WRAG with a 12+ month prognosis as I have posted before on the forums Seetec continue to harass me with mandatory appointment letters even though I have not volunteered for WP.

 

I have an appointment today and was told by the manager at Seetec that JCP now are requiring ESA WRAG claimants to engage with providers for the remaining period until re assessment.

 

This is news to me, and I don't buy it. Anyone heard similar?

[Mr.P]

I have an appointment today and was told by the manager at Seetec that JCP now are requiring ESA WRAG claimants to engage with providers for the remaining period until re assessment.

 

Ask, no, demand that they provide verifiable proof from the DWP on JCP headed paper. A call to the third party provision manager at your local JCP would then confirm this. No official memo has been published by the DWP on the subject, but this is no guarantee that an internal email is being circulated - Based on the track record of honesty and integrity by WP providers, I'd certainly want to see proof.

[mr_mastiff]

Hi this is the new guidance for the work programme dated 20th Aug 2013. I dont fully understand it. But it may help.

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-2.pdf

 

 

Annex A looks to have all the detail. It looks to me as if the rules have changed.

Edited September 11, 2013 by mr_mastiff

[Mr.P]

From the link above:

 

Participant: ESA (IR) WRAG (with Youngest Child Under 5 OR Full-Time Carer) with 12 Month + [prognosis]

Claimant Group: WP ESA (IR) WRAG 12Mth Voluntary

Payment Group: PG 5 Voluntary

Participation: Voluntary

 

• WP ESA (IR) WRAG 12Mth Voluntary – Optional entry from the point at which the outcome of the claimant’s WCA is known: ESA Income Related (IR) WRAG participants who have been given a prognosis of 12 months+ at their WCA and who [...] are full-time carers (this grouping may also include a proportion of participants who previously received incapacity benefits).

[osdset]

Hi this is the new guidance for the work programme dated 20th Aug 2013. I dont fully understand it. But it may help.

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-2.pdf

 

 

Annex A looks to have all the detail. It looks to me as if the rules have changed.

 

 

Thanks, was just looking at that myself. There is one section that states mandatory for 12+month prognosis if after 12 Nov 2012, if that's the case it doesn't apply to me as mine was Aug 2012.

 

JCP are useless, I can't get through to anyone that deals with ESA.

[osdset]

From the link above:

 

Participant: ESA (IR) WRAG (with Youngest Child Under 5 OR Full-Time Carer) with 12 Month + [prognosis]

Claimant Group: WP ESA (IR) WRAG 12Mth Voluntary

Payment Group: PG 5 Voluntary

Participation: Voluntary

 

• WP ESA (IR) WRAG 12Mth Voluntary – Optional entry from the point at which the outcome of the claimant’s WCA is known: ESA Income Related (IR) WRAG participants who have been given a prognosis of 12 months+ at their WCA and who [...] are full-time carers (this grouping may also include a proportion of participants who previously received incapacity benefits).

 

 

So it looks like the only voluntary participants now are young child or carer status?

[mr_mastiff]

So it looks like the only voluntary participants now are young child or carer status?

 

Thats the way I read it, I do hope I am wrong.

[Mr.P]

If you are in the WRAG group, I'm pretty sure it has always been the case that it was mandatory unless you were a carer. ESA Support Group, Income Support, and Pension/JSA Credit groups are still voluntary, so that hasn't changed.

[osdset]

If you are in the WRAG group, I'm pretty sure it has always been the case that it was mandatory unless you were a carer. ESA Support Group, Income Support, and Pension/JSA Credit groups are still voluntary, so that hasn't changed.

 

 

Hmm, I clearly remember reading the regs last year and they stated mandatory participation for claimants up to 12 months 12+ months was voluntary. Looks like the rules have changed, DWP docs aren't the easiest to decipher.

 

 

It would however explain why I've only had one WFI back in Jan 2013, when I spoke to the bloke at Seetec today and told him that an advisor had told me I was voluntary at the one and only meeting I have ever attended at Seetec back in March, he replied " that's why he, and a few others are no longer with us".

[osdset]

According to the DWP live memo's ESA claimants with a 12 month prognosis would be mandated to the WP from 12th Nov 2012, I can't find anything that says claimants with this prognosis who had the decision prior to 12th Nov will not. Needs clarifying.

[mr_mastiff]

Hmm, I clearly remember reading the regs last year and they stated mandatory participation for claimants up to 12 months 12+ months was voluntary. Looks like the rules have changed, DWP docs aren't the easiest to decipher.

 

 

It would however explain why I've only had one WFI back in Jan 2013, when I spoke to the bloke at Seetec today and told him that an advisor had told me I was voluntary at the one and only meeting I have ever attended at Seetec back in March, he replied " that's why he, and a few others are no longer with us".

 

I am sure you are right when I went to the JPC I was appealing at the time to be placed into the support group. I was told by the disability advisor that because I was in the WRAG with 12+ prognosis that I did not need to go into the work programme.

[osdset]

Update.

 

Seetec are dragging in every ESA claimant that were told they were voluntary participants on the WP and are now telling them that they are not.

 

I went to the appointment today to try and get some answers, there were 25 other ESA claimants all in the same situation as me. The point of today's appointment apparently was to dish out letters, wait for it.........................for another appointment at the same time next week.

 

The letters laughably were standard issue for JSA claimants, a faux pas there methinks.

 

No one could provide evidence from the DWP when I asked whether Seetec were acting within guidelines, and the spotty youth conducting the 'session' had the front to blame claimants for not 'engaging' with advisors over the last six months. I made a point of telling him that as we were under the impression that we were voluntary participants that hadn't volunteered it follows that no advisor would have been allocated, and therefore we had no need to 'engage 'with anyone.

 

I asked to see the manager that had promised to call me back today, request refused on the grounds that he was too busy.

 

I asked again to see someone else in authority to provide documentary evidence that Seetec were acting within the rules, apparently no one was available.

 

Something just does not seem right in all this, usually JCP write and inform claimants when regulations that will directly effect them are brought out.

 

I am wondering if this has been rolled out across the country, hope to have some answers before next Friday.

[45002]

Update.

 

Seetec are dragging in every ESA claimant that were told they were voluntary participants on the WP and are now telling them that they are not.

 

I went to the appointment today to try and get some answers, there were 25 other ESA claimants all in the same situation as me. The point of today's appointment apparently was to dish out letters, wait for it.........................for another appointment at the same time next week.

 

The letters laughably were standard issue for JSA claimants, a faux pas there methinks.

 

No one could provide evidence from the DWP when I asked whether Seetec were acting within guidelines, and the spotty youth conducting the 'session' had the front to blame claimants for not 'engaging' with advisors over the last six months. I made a point of telling him that as we were under the impression that we were voluntary participants that hadn't volunteered it follows that no advisor would have been allocated, and therefore we had no need to 'engage 'with anyone.

 

I asked to see the manager that had promised to call me back today, request refused on the grounds that he was too busy.

 

I asked again to see someone else in authority to provide documentary evidence that Seetec were acting within the rules, apparently no one was available.

 

Something just does not seem right in all this, usually JCP write and inform claimants when regulations that will directly effect them are brought out.

 

I am wondering if this has been rolled out across the country, hope to have some answers before next Friday.

 

I hope Seetec are paying the travel cost of the claimants or does the JCP pay or not at all ?

[Mr.P]

I asked to see the manager that had promised to call me back today, request refused on the grounds that he was too busy.

 

I asked again to see someone else in authority to provide documentary evidence that Seetec were acting within the rules, apparently no one was available.

 

Made a similar request at an A4e session and got palmed off on some dizzy little blonde that couldn't have been more than 20 - I said something along the lines "So you are allowed to run around like a bunch of headless chickens without the supervision of a responsible adult ???"

 

I hope Seetec are paying the travel cost of the claimants or does the JCP pay or not at all ?

Travel and childcare expenses are ultimately paid for by the DWP (or if you prefer, the tax payer) - There doesn't appear to be any auditing of the monies involved, so there is scope here for the providers to defraud.

[osdset]

It seems likely that this is the ESA pilot scheme that requires claimants to have regular meetings with healthcare professionals.

 

• The pilots will begin in November 2013 and will run until August 2016.
  
• They will involve people on ESA in the work related activity group who are expected to be able to return to work in 18 months or over.
  
• The meetings will focus on helping claimants to move closer to being able to get a job.
  
• The scheme will compare the help given by doctors, occupational health nurses and therapists to 2 other pilot schemes which will offer enhanced support from Jobcentre Plus and Work Programme providers to see which is best at helping people off sickness benefits and into work.
  

This is supposed to be a two year pilot so it's running from Nov 2013 to Aug 2016? The DWP needs a math lesson.

 

 

 

There will be three separate pilot schemes:

 

• health care professional-led – mandatory engagement with health care professionals
  
• Jobcentre Plus – enhanced Jobcentre Plus support
  
• Work Programme – enhanced support designed by Work Programme provider
  

I think the first two options can safely be ruled out in favour of the WP providers.

[45002]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/help-for-people-on-sickness-benefits-to-address-barriers-to-work

 

http://www.disabilityalliance.org/news/2013/july/compulsory-meetings-health-care-professionals

 

#15,This has been posted before on CAG

 

pilot scheme funded by EU..........

[mr_mastiff]

This document was published in july 2013

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/help-for-people-on-sickness-benefits-to-address-barriers-to-work.

 

A number of people placed into the W.R.A.G have progessive chronic illness and I fail to understand how these HCP are going to enhance the chance of these people gaining employment. From what I have read the pilot scheme will involve 3,000 people. I bet they pick only the best with the most chance.

 

This article may well give some of the answers to why they are attempting this,

 

http://www.theworkfoundation.com/Media/Press-Releases/1253/Work-Programme-failing-people-with-longterm-conditions

Edited September 12, 2013 by mr_mastiff

[osdset]

#15,This has been posted before on CAG

 

Yep, I realised this morning I had already posted about this back in I think July I just didn't make the connection.

It would of helped immensely if either JCP or the providers had explained this in advance but no Seetec merely sent out their bog standard 'you are mandated' letter.

Further inspection of the mandatory appointment letters received yesterday confirms that they are indeed intended for JSA claimants, anyone not attending next weeks appointment would IMO have grounds to fight a sanction on the basis that the letter did not apply to them.

 

Seetec could not even be bothered to construct letters specifically tailored for ESA claimants, the rules are different and so are the options for sanction.

 

It's a shambles, Seetec staff have no idea why claimants have been asked to return and nor do the claimants, the only one that seems to be up to speed is the manager who could not be bothered to explain anything to anyone.

[sillygirl1]

I am one of these people soon to go onto ESA (next week) and have a progressive chronic illness, so I am unlikely to ever be able to hold down a full time job again, and as I am now 55 it is possible I could get a medical early retirement....

 

How helping to find me employment when I have a visible disability in my right hand and cannot lift anything heavier than a single packet of A4 paper is a mystery. If I type more than 20 minutes I end up with pain in the remaining thumb and two fingers in my right hand.... most jobs involve typing for long periods....the other 'alternative' is shelf-filling and as I can't get heavy tins off a shelf I would be useless!

 

On a bad day I can barely type and at home have managed to utilise some of the advanced stuff available on Microsoft to manage to type with one hand.

[mr_mastiff]

The queation I ask myself is were are the resources coming from to implement this Programme. Every time my Gp tries to access therapy for me there is always a 4 to 6 month wait or even longer. If main stream medicine as not got the resources were are JPC and WP providers going to get them from.

[fightingback99]

The queation I ask myself is were are the resources coming from to implement this Programme. Every time my Gp tries to access therapy for me there is always a 4 to 6 month wait or even longer. If main stream medicine as not got the resources were are JPC and WP providers going to get them from.

 

Hopefully not ATOS:jaw:

[mr_mastiff]

Hopefully not ATOS:jaw:

 

My fear entirely! A group that repeatedly fails to do competent assessment placed in charge of people with numerous specialist conditions. Advising them on how they can help themselves. It will only take 1 case of litigation due to mal practice to bring the whole idea down. My consultant as promised to hang the first person who trys to make me do anything against the medical advise given to me.

[sillygirl1]

I've just got off the phone from putting a claim in for ESA and have been told that after 6 weeks I will have a 'work focussed interview' and they will see about getting me interviews - errrr in that time I will be on steriod treatment and not able to work and on the waiting list for a double laminectomy! Flipping idiots can't do anything until I've recovered from the op!

 

This is aimed at 'catching' new claimants before they end up being long term claimants - yes, there are some scroungers out there (I don't like that word but it is the press which make it a 'current PC term' for people on benefits) who, if properly dealt with would find employment but again there are others for which it is imposisble for them to find even part time work and get their benefit burden cut.

[Nystagmite]

Most who are long term claimants are incurable and nothing will help them. Despite what some people have claimed, this is true for me.

[sillygirl1]

I know, I have osteoporosis in my neck and nothing will 'cure' that. I also have several collapsing vertabrae and ulnar nerve damage in my right hand.... the nerve damage may be reversable but the rest won't be.

 

I suspect they want to weed out the 'fat' people and get them to exercise their way to health, and give them sanctions if they don't loose enough weight in a given time..

 

I also suspect they may use 'unqualified, unlicenced, international help' as most people in the UK can't get the support they need to help them lead a 'meaningful working life'.