ESA Tribunal 1st adjourned - 2nd one no success - help

[marie123]

It is being said in the DWP response that medical evidence is insufficient,

and apparently there are numerous inconsistances, with my ESA50 and the appeal papers written on my behalf by a family member

 

…Not so.

 

.my ailments have only been echoed .and if anything explained. more explicitly.

 

The Welfare benefits team have written a submission for the hearing (my atos medical was 12 & 1/2 months ago)

 

If the hearing is not found in my favour what if anything can I do as a next step?

 

I have currently been out of work and claiming long term sick for 10 yrs,

 

my heath has in fact deteriorated and not improved,

 

I now also suffer with very bad migraines, the symptoms of which mimic a stroke.

 

.these it seems carry no weight re: my claim.

 

Fast forward to today my appeal hearing:

 

my case has been adjourned,

 

initially due to my paper work from welfare benefits team (community legal action) not reaching the judge until 5 minutes before my hearing started.

 

I was asked if I wanted to proceed without the welfare evidence being read and was given 5 minutes to reach that decision

 

.I did not know the best course of action and found it impossible to make up my mind. the judge decided on adjournment

 

and they have now decided to request almost 3yrs of medical records,

 

from what has been said I am under the impression that they do not think that my doctors description of my ailments matches the medications I am being treated with

 

…..if this is the case where do I stand?

 

If they were to find I am being inadequately treated medically will this go against me?

 

surely I can not be penalised for this? can anyone shed any light on this for me.

 

thanks

 

marie123

[estellyn]

do they think your prescriptions are too mild compared to the Dr's description, or that the medications indicate a more severe illness than described by the doctor? It can be either way.

[marie123]

Hi thanks for your reply

 

The judge said that there were discrepancies, when asked to elaborate on this he said that my GP describes a high level of incapacity. He then said that he wanted medical records as and i quote from the adjournment notice:

 

'Having considered the information in the papers, it appeared to us that the level of treatment being provided, was not entirely congruent with the level of incapacity described by the GP. We consider that the medical notes might assist in better understanding the discrepancy to enable a fair decision to be made.'

 

My concern is that the amount of info they have been provided with has been extensive. The appeal submitted by a family member details my ailments in a 30 page document. This is corroborated by my GP, it appears now that they are trying to establish in my mind whether I have visited and complained to the GP often enough.

 

Thanks

[estellyn]

This is a situation I have seen quite a few times at Tribunal. A person states a level of incapacity/pain etc, and even with medical evidence, the doctor on the panel looks at the prescribed drugs and and has 'questions' as he doesn't feel that the medications 'fit' with the symptoms/incapacity. Most often I've seen this with things like pain meds - a person states a high level of pain, but is on very basic pain medication. Often there is a reason, for instance lack of tolerance of stronger meds and the medical notes will give a history of what has been tried and the effects.

 

Do you have any inkling of what is not 'congruent'?

[bedofweeds]

Another example of a case where the DWP have failed to seek further evidence in order to make a fair and balanced decision as there is some inconsistency with the ESA50, documents submitted and a GP report. Why have the DWP allowed this to get as far as a Tribunal? Maybe the DWP are just not up to doing the job they are being paid to do.

 

Two very similar posts both displaying the poor decision making by the DWP and the failure by them to test all of the evidence provided.

 

Another complaint case if ever I saw one

[mr_mastiff]

Hi thanks for your reply

 

The judge said that there were discrepancies, when asked to elaborate on this he said that my GP describes a high level of incapacity. He then said that he wanted medical records as and i quote from the adjournment notice:

 

'Having considered the information in the papers, it appeared to us that the level of treatment being provided, was not entirely congruent with the level of incapacity described by the GP. We consider that the medical notes might assist in better understanding the discrepancy to enable a fair decision to be made.'

 

My concern is that the amount of info they have been provided with has been extensive. The appeal submitted by a family member details my ailments in a 30 page document. This is corroborated by my GP, it appears now that they are trying to establish in my mind whether I have visited and complained to the GP often enough.

 

Thanks

 

There as been a number of cases were the tribunals Doctors judgement as been called in to question. Every patient is different. For example if you are on blood pressure medication you may only require 25mg twice aday to control it, were others of the same size and weight may need 50mg or even 100mgs of the same drug to gain control. it is the same for the greater number of medications.

 

If your GP is like mine then he will adjust your medications upwards or downwards to achieve to best result for you with the least side effects. With some of the medications I am on a lower dose than normal because the side effects are too great at the higher level. If you looked at my list of medications some people would say thats to low or oh my god thats too high, but it is what gives the best result for me.

 

I think whats happened here is that the tribunal Doctor as looked at your medications and because some of them do not match the "norm" he/she requires further information to make a fair decision. However if it was my GP whos judgement was being called into question there would be flames coming out of his ears.

[marie123]

Hi,

 

I have my 2nd appeal in 18 days,

 

the first was adjourned in september.

 

when i originally filled in the Esa50 i did send a seperate information sheet, detailing my migraines and the effects I experience.

 

Dwp report seems to sweeping these under the carpet,

irrespective of the fact that I have had 2 mri scans in 3 yrs and been hospitalized on one occasion due to the symptoms and severity of attack.

 

Finally last month my migraines have been given a clinical name 'migraine with Aura'

 

Now that I have a clinical diagnosis from neurologist will these dibilitating attacks be taken into account at all...

 

.any body have any ideas?

[Nystagmite]

The diagnosis doesn't matter. All they care about it how it affects your ability to work.

[marie123]

Hi, yes I understand that they are only interested in what 'they deem to be my ability to work' but as they stating my probelms were alledgd now there is a clinical diagnosis they can at least no longer consider it 'alledged' but should now have to take into account the impact these do have on me.

[Nystagmite]

In your case, it should help. Pretty disgusted that they claim your problems are alleged.

[worried33]

This is a situation I have seen quite a few times at Tribunal. A person states a level of incapacity/pain etc, and even with medical evidence, the doctor on the panel looks at the prescribed drugs and and has 'questions' as he doesn't feel that the medications 'fit' with the symptoms/incapacity. Most often I've seen this with things like pain meds - a person states a high level of pain, but is on very basic pain medication. Often there is a reason, for instance lack of tolerance of stronger meds and the medical notes will give a history of what has been tried and the effects.

 

Do you have any inkling of what is not 'congruent'?

 

This is what I think tribunals do wrong, they seem to look at what treatment people are getting as evidence of the person's problem.

 

The reason I think this way is that the treatment someone gets is highly reliant on their GP cooperatign and been sympathetic as well as the budget for their local NHS area.

 

Judging someone's pain by their prescribed pain killers I think is very wrong.

[marie123]

Thanks to all for replying.

[marie123]

Hi guys,

 

well I recieved my Tribunal notification this morning REJECTED.

 

I have been going through this whole thing since August 2012 ..16 months.

 

I was initally scored 0 points by atos.

 

 

the Tribunal have awarded me 12 points.

 

What do I do now?

 

am going to put in a new claim for ESA but what can I do to enable me to get the points I need to qualify.

 

I just do not know how I can explain myself any more clearly or what more information my doctor can offer.

 

I have depression..migraine Aura..arthritis of the spine and multiple joints which the tribunal are stating

'the resulting limitations are insufficient to score the required number of points'

 

however i have been scored 6 points each for Getting About and Coping with social engagement due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder'

under section c for both of these. so I can not go anywhere alone unaccompanied by another person...

but i can get a and travel to a job?

 

I cannot engage in social contact for the majority of time due to difficulty in relating to others or significant distress experience..

.but I can get a job?

Can anybody give me advice please,

 

thankyou

[honeybee13]

Hello Marie. I'm sorry to hear that.

 

I'm merging your duplicate threads into this one and tidying it. The guys should be along later with advice for you.

 

HB

[solbert]

 

Judging someone's pain by their prescribed pain killers I think is very wrong.

 

Why??

 

 

If the GP believes that the severity of the pain is such, they will prescribe a relevant and stronger medication.

 

 

 

 

It's like saying the pain is the same for someone that is prescribed Asprin as it is for those prescribed 120mg of MST daily + top ups of Oramorph.

 

 

Of course the medication is bound to be representative of the level of pain suffered.

[fightingback99]

Hi guys,

the Tribunal have awarded me 12 points.

 

however i have been scored 6 points each for Getting About and Coping with social engagement due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder'

under section c for both of these. so I can not go anywhere alone unaccompanied by another person...

but i can get a and travel to a job?

 

I cannot engage in social contact for the majority of time due to difficulty in relating to others or significant distress experience..

.but I can get a job?

Can anybody give me advice please,

 

thankyou

 

6 points is the score for not being able to go somewhere unfamilair unless accompanied. If getting to familiar places unless accompanied had been awarded it would have given you 9 points which would have given you the extra 3 points you needed for ESA.

 

If you're unable to go anywhere unless accompanied , maybe you need to get this point across better on your next ESA application?

[solbert]

6 points is the score for not being able to go somewhere unfamilair unless accompanied. If getting to familiar places unless accompanied had been awarded it would have given you 9 points which would have given you the extra 3 points you needed for ESA.

 

If you're unable to go anywhere unless accompanied , maybe you need to get this point across better on your next ESA application?

 

 

 

And if that is the case and a new claim is put in to show that, I would imagine that the DWP would view it with great suspicion simply because they would question as to why that argument wasn't put up in the previous claim. However if it is a deterioration then yes that would be a good enough excuse.

[marie123]

yes I see what you are saying, but I have not been able to go out alone since hospitalisation in oct of 2012, and although this was stated clearly in my appeal, it has been made quite clear to me by the judge that the decision they would come to would be based on how I was at the time of my assesment (august2012), not what may have occured since that date

[marie123]

thankyou, I did initially inform them that I do not go anywhere alone, the only excception to this was rarley to my gp alone. however since bieng hospitlised in oct of 2012 I no longer do this alone, but it was made clear to me at the hearing that they would only be taking into consideration how I was at the time of my medical assement in Aug 2012 (they were given this information in my appeal papers)

[RaeUK]

Whilst I can't advise you with the specifics of your illness in mind, I can say don't give up, keep strong and carry on fighting for ESA if you are unfit for work.

It took me 4 years, 3 ESA applications, 2 failed WCAs, and 2 failed Tribunals to then be put straight into the Support Group for three years on the strength of my last application alone.

Each application contained copies of all the evidence of the previous one plus any further evidence that came my way. I also included print outs of information from online medical sites and anything I could find to underline my case.

You can't send too much evidence as long as it's somehow relevant. It's up to the DWP Decision Maker to sort the wheat from the chaff.

[marie123]

thank you for your reply, I will keep fighting, at the moment my head is 'mush' and im finding it very hard to cope, but I may well come back to you with some questions if that is ok with you .

[marie123]

Hi, I am now in receipt of ESA at the lower level and have just received my ESA50 to fill in, It took me at least 3 wks with the help of a family member to fill in the last one. I don't feel I can cope with this right now A.) i don't know how to 'put things' as my explanation and other evidence wasn't so it seems put across well in my last form and B.) Mentally I just can not do it.what I would like to know is would I therefor be better off by using the services of either the CAB Who have set me up a home appointment visit for this) or the services of scope (dissibility charity) who also offer a form filling service. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. many thanks.

[estellyn]

Hi, I am now in receipt of ESA at the lower level and have just received my ESA50 to fill in, It took me at least 3 wks with the help of a family member to fill in the last one. I don't feel I can cope with this right now A.) i don't know how to 'put things' as my explanation and other evidence wasn't so it seems put across well in my last form and B.) Mentally I just can not do it.what I would like to know is would I therefor be better off by using the services of either the CAB Who have set me up a home appointment visit for this) or the services of scope (dissibility charity) who also offer a form filling service. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. many thanks.

 

 

Yes, if you have experienced help at hand then it is best to make use of it.

[**Margaret**]

:marie123:

 

You could start by looking at CAG's guide to completion of an ESA50. It's slightly dated but (except for 'mobilising') the descriptors that may apply to you haven't changed significantly since it was written.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?316210-ESA50-Guide

 

And the completely up to date guide on Rethink's site, which also has some useful tips about supportive evidence.

 

http://www.rethink.org/living-with-mental-illness/money-issues-benefits-employment/work-capability-assessment

 

Concerning your arthritis, you need to think carefully about its impact on your ability to walk/wheel a chair, and stay at a work station for the majority of the time. If you can't walk/wheel 50 metres ignore the tick boxes on page 7 (or create you own above the 50 metre box with how far you can walk/wheel). Then use the bigger boxes on pages 7 - 8 to explain how far you can walk/wheel/how long you can stay at a workstation with a combination of sitting and standing for the majority of the time. Along the lines of; cos of X (arthritis) can't do Y (walk or wheel 200 metres/stay at a work station for longer than 60 minutes. Explain your answers with examples from your everyday life. Things like; cos I can't walk to the nearest bus stop my partner leaves work early to take me to the doctor, or I can sit at a table to eat dinner but then need to lie on the sofa for 20 minutes until my back pain subsides.

 

Same for the 'getting about' and 'social engagement' descriptors. Cos of X (your mental health diagnosis) I can't do Y (go shopping, get to appointments, answer the door/phone, or whatever). You need to explain in your own words, how it is for you day in and day out, in the bigger boxes on page 15. (And probably on extra sheets of paper!) Arranging for a companion to take you to wherever. That you missed a family wedding or parents evening. Describe the last panic attack when you got separated from your chaperone on a bus, or in a crowded supermarket.

 

The official view of migraine can be found at page 104 of;

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/work-capability-assessment-handbook-for-healthcare-professionals

 

 

From what I've heard, help from Citizens Advice (personally I don't know anything about Scope's service) can vary between a transcription service and an adviser who can guide you to think about the issues above and help you to word the answers for your questionnaire. As :estellyn: says, if you've got an offer of expert help, best to consider making use of it. Any pre-thinking you've already done, or notes you've prepared, will help the adviser to help you. Should you be unhappy with the adviser's approach (cos of resources, they're not all estellyns) the most persuasive evidence on an ESA50 is how your disability affects your ability or lack of it, with as much relevant detail as possible but no waffling, to perform the prescribed descriptors.

 

 

Sincerely, Margaret.