ATOS denying home visit based on my GPs lack of evidence ?

[mikv]

I recently had ATOS contact me, to tell me they have denied me a home visit because my of GP / ATOS requirements that I should of have a face - face to visit.

 

The irony is , is that I did I ask him for a home visit but was refused without any reason and offered a phone appointment instead despite the fact he had never seen me ( i only registered a month before I got worse ) and was / still am housebound for some time.

 

I had no idea at the time this wasn't considered appropriate as no one told me , and assumed it was fine because he was familiar with ATOS's rules and my medical history ( as I assumed most GPs are ) until ATOS told me otherwise 7 months later.

 

During the phone consultation he surprisingly admitted not being familiar with ATOS's procedures ( although he had the info there but hadn't read it all ) so in response I reiterated what they had told me, just to make sure he knew , in addition to giving him their ph no and contact details . He concluded the consultation by telling me he was content do a letter for me based on what I had told him / history , and that he would phone up ATOS if required.

 

After a month ATOS told me they still had not received a letter from him or a phone call , so I decided to write him a nice letter explaining this along with more input on my history and records backing it up to make life easier for him - still no reply or conformation so I was eventually forced to phone. When I did , I found out the letter had been done but was waiting to be collected , despite the fact he agreed to post it - because of my inability to travel.

 

When I eventually did send the letter to ATOS , I not only had to do it once but three times , because they were apparently unable to find it in their system and even accused me of sending to the wrong address despite having recorded proof .

 

Some 7 months later they miraculously find it - then hit me with this.

 

We did receive a letter from your doctor , however the information was not accepted as he had copied on to us what you had told him. In the Healthcare professional's phone call to him recently, as he had not actually seen you to form his own opinion, he could not provide his own opinion to support your request for a home visit - it is insufficient evidence for a GP to copy on what their patient tells them without the GP being able to verify the information.

 

If any one has any suggestions on how to proceed with this , and what course of action to take Id be interested to hear your replies.

 

thanks,

 

mike

[honeybee13]

Hello Mike and welcome to CAG.

 

I expect people will be along soon with tips for you, please bear with us until they are able to get here. We're all volunteers at CAG and a lot of the people who advise on Atos have their own problems with these people.

 

I'll make sure you're getting on OK and send a couple of SOSs if it goes quiet.

 

My best, HB

[mikv]

Hello Mike and welcome to CAG.

 

I expect people will be along soon with tips for you, please bear with us until they are able to get here. We're all volunteers at CAG and a lot of the people who advise on Atos have their own problems with these people.

 

I'll make sure you're getting on OK and send a couple of SOSs if it goes quiet.

 

My best, HB

 

Hi HoneyB,

 

Thanks for the warm intro and welcome , your forum looks like a good place to stay informed so I will likely be here while

 

Hopefully in time I can help some others too .

 

thanks again,

 

mike

[honeybee13]

That's good to hear, thank you.

 

HB

[mikv]

Not to throw a spanner in the mix , but I just found out a doctor can refuse home visits ( with no explanation ) too , so what happens then if the doctor uses this as his excuse not to visit the patient without bothering to tell ATOS or make it clear , isnt it just his word against mine, and even if it isnt , what difference does it make if he can act with impunity any way ?

 

Also if surgery policies mention including home visits , does that change anything in this regard or make them more accountability , or is it more to do with some false sense of security or terminally ill scenarios ?

Edited September 8, 2013 by mikv

[honeybee13]

I'm sorry, I don't know the answer. There are people on the forum who do, but they may not be around at the moment. Weekends are always quieter here, but they may be along later.

 

HB

[**Margaret**]

:mikv:

 

Unfortunately there aren't any easy answers to this one. General practitioners are becoming increasingly reluctant to do home visits and the relationship between them and Atos is becoming increasingly fraught. My own doctor blanks any mention of Atos, and completes official requests from Atos/Jobcentreplus with one word answers! Or 'not known'.

 

You don't say why you're housebound (and it's your right not to) but is there another healthcare professional involved in your care? Praps an occupational therapist or a psychiatric nurse who could evidence your inability to travel to an assessment centre.

 

How long is it since you left your home? Where did you go? And how did you get there? How do you get food/your medication? If a friend/relative helps you with shopping, Atos (unreasonably) expect them to help you get to an assessment. Would a first appointment of the session help? Is an alternative Atos centre easier to access?

 

If your problems are with physical mobility/agoraphobia/panic attacks, submit a subject access request to your doctor. A tenner gets you everything that's on the computer. You may find a report to evidence your inability to get to Atos and confirm what you said via your doctor.

 

I hope my suggestions and questions will help you to attend an assessment or explain to Atos/Jobcentreplus why you can't. The alternative is that Atos will return your file to Jobcentreplus for a decision maker to consider whether you've good cause for non attendance.

 

Best wishes, Margaret.

[claire1981]

 

We did receive a letter from your doctor , however the information was not accepted as he had copied on to us what you had told him. In the Healthcare professional's phone call to him recently, as he had not actually seen you to form his own opinion, he could not provide his own opinion to support your request for a home visit - it is insufficient evidence for a GP to copy on what their patient tells them without the GP being able to verify the information.

 

 

 

That's really very typical of agencies. My local social services got my child wrongly put on at risk register by doing the above. They had wrongly copied word for word what another professional who had no communication with my family or any facts at all prior to making 'conclusion'. Any yes that would be wrong, in fact the authority was ordered to delete records by the Information Commissioners Office/Local Government Ombudsman & pay out compo.

 

But in your case I don't think it can be said that the information isn't a properly formed opinion, just because it mirrors the patients evidence given by them self. It seems like they are trying to use a law intended to protect you; against you (not for its intended use). After all the GP is allowed to make up their own mind based on evidence you present to them, you may communicate how you wish & with the aids you need to do so (in this case a phone). At a face-to-face consultation all the GP would likely have done is listen to what you had to say anyway, so I see little excuse to try to claim verbal or written evidence presented to the GP to analyze must always be false, simply if it is copied word for word- the obvious answer may just be that the GP accepted it to be an accurate account. I believe the excuse they are trying to fob you off with is intended for third party evidence, not your case! Also if the GP had any reason to doubt your account, they could have asked for more verbal information from you- which is all they usually seem to do at a consultation anyway!

 

Don't let them get away with that. It was pointed out to me hundreds of times by NHS & GP legal team that a GP is not required to verify the information given to them 'if they believe in good faith that it is a true/accurate account' eg social worker report- "X never goes out". A GP basically seems to have absolute power to be the decider over whether they will/not accept statements or self testimonials. They definitely don't need undeniable proof! And your GP will claim they have verified what they put & followed the code of conduct, otherwise they would be in trouble! If you spoke to them, they had opportunity to question you for verification purposes if in doubt- so I don't see the problem here! ATOS can't disagree with the GPs conclusion, simply because they don't like it or can't find evidence to substantiate it. GPs rarely record every conversation word for word & it will just be accepted that they asked the right questions to verify what is claimed. I think ATOS are trying it on, to see if they can get away with midleading you!

Edited September 15, 2013 by honeybee13
Pejorative term removed.

[seanamarts]

Have you requested a home visit with your GP. If you are genuinely housebound then they have to make a home visit. If they dont then you need to make a complaint to the manager of the surgery.

 

Are you able at all to go visit your GP?

[mikv]

Hello there.

 

Do you still have the support worker? I would have thought that they could help with some of this.

 

My best, HB

 

No support ( and for good reason ) too as my illness is rare and not officially recognised by all GPs ( only 9 % ) and thus has no way of being easily diagnosed , is wide open to abuse / negligence ( which is a good part of the reason I got this bad )

 

If you want know the details I can pm , but I do not trust going into here , because its symptoms are not common and therefore easily traced on search engines.

 

I did have support worker but I got rid of her largely because if that negligence I mentioned and the fact her presence or visits never helped any way because there is no help or treatment for what I have other than " experimental treatments " or unofficial things Ive found that have helped.

[mikv]

do you not have CPN ( clinical Psychiatric nurse) and is your support worker still involved in your care? you might be best changing your GP if you feel the lack of care is not sufficient enough that he/she is providing for you. if you have diagnosis of your condition i cannot see why a new GP would not give you a sick note for your condition you dont have anything to loose at the moment from changing GP as it seems the one you have got at the moment seems to not be helping or supporting you at all your support worker will have a list or a cluster of GP practices that cover mental health it might be best to see which ones they are in your area.

 

the only other thing i can suggest is could you not get your mum to leave an answer phone message saying all messages on this phone are not picked up and anyone wishing to contact you please do it in witting only might be worth thinking about

 

i can understand that it can be scary when having a medical especially from ATOS but once they want to see you its not s though you can refuse really you can always have someone there with you like your mu or your support worker on the day its good thong they recognise you need a home visit and are not making you go to the medical centre they usually hold the assessments in but i would definitely think about Changing your GP is they are not supporting you in they way you feel you should be supported

 

Its not fear or pain , my joints are so bad ( part of my condition ) I literally cant tolerate most frequencies of motors without it destabilising my connective tissue which in turn makes things worse , in other words it is literally like I have no shock absorption at all to protect my joints / organs.

 

I barely got by before using special foam 5" thick as seating , and now its worse , I dont know what to do , because its not only other movements ( like motors ) but own that affects it , whether it be trying to type or brushing my teeth.

[Nystagmite]

Its not fear or pain , my joints are so bad ( part of my condition ) I literally cant tolerate most frequencies of motors without it destabilising my connective tissue which in turn makes things worse , in other words it is literally like I have no shock absorption at all to protect my joints / organs.

 

I barely got by before using special foam 5" thick as seating , and now its worse , I dont know what to do , because its not only other movements ( like motors ) but own that affects it , whether it be trying to type or brushing my teeth.

 

This is someone elses thread.

[honeybee13]

Mik, I've moved your recent posts to your existing thread. Hopefully people will help you here.

 

HB

[mikv]

Mik, I've moved your recent posts to your existing thread. Hopefully people will help you here.

 

HB

 

thanks HB, sorry about that , (( bad day )) thought it was my thread .

 

mike

[mikv]

Have you requested a home visit with your GP. If you are genuinely housebound then they have to make a home visit. If they dont then you need to make a complaint to the manager of the surgery.

 

Are you able at all to go visit your GP?

 

No, I was thinking of writing him a letter,or just ignoring him and trying to see someone else given ATOS's urgency for a letter..

[mikv]

That's really very typical of agencies. My local social services got my child wrongly put on at risk register by doing the above. They had wrongly copied word for word what another professional who had no communication with my family or any facts at all prior to making 'conclusion'. Any yes that would be wrong, in fact the authority was ordered to delete records by the Information Commissioners Office/Local Government Ombudsman & pay out compo.

 

But in your case I don't think it can be said that the information isn't a properly formed opinion, just because it mirrors the patients evidence given by them self. It seems like they are trying to use a law intended to protect you; against you (not for its intended use). After all the GP is allowed to make up their own mind based on evidence you present to them, you may communicate how you wish & with the aids you need to do so (in this case a phone). At a face-to-face consultation all the GP would likely have done is listen to what you had to say anyway, so I see little excuse to try to claim verbal or written evidence presented to the GP to analyze must always be false, simply if it is copied word for word- the obvious answer may just be that the GP accepted it to be an accurate account. I believe the excuse they are trying to fob you off with is intended for third party evidence, not your case! Also if the GP had any reason to doubt your account, they could have asked for more verbal information from you- which is all they usually seem to do at a consultation anyway!

 

Don't let them get away with that. It was pointed out to me hundreds of times by NHS & GP legal team that a GP is not required to verify the information given to them 'if they believe in good faith that it is a true/accurate account' eg social worker report- "X never goes out". A GP basically seems to have absolute power to be the decider over whether they will/not accept statements or self testimonials. They definitely don't need undeniable proof! And your GP will claim they have verified what they put & followed the code of conduct, otherwise they would be in trouble! If you spoke to them, they had opportunity to question you for verification purposes if in doubt- so I don't see the problem here! ATOS can't disagree with the GPs conclusion, simply because they don't like it or can't find evidence to substantiate it. GPs rarely record every conversation word for word & it will just be accepted that they asked the right questions to verify what is claimed. I think ATOS are trying it on, to see if they can get away with midleading you!

 

Maybe, I have asked them for a letter to confirm their statement , but Im just in two minds now to try and move on to another GP so I can get this letter they need rather than play piggy in the middle ( although i do still plan on writing to him to hear what he has to say )

 

I know my GPs practice does do home visits because they mention it on their site , so if not him then one of the others ( unless they mean emergency ) ?

Edited September 15, 2013 by mikv

[seanamarts]

No, I was thinking of writing him a letter,or just ignoring him and trying to see someone else given ATOS's urgency for a letter..

I would certainly request a home visit, if you have stated to your surgery that you are housebound then they are obliged to send a doctor to you. If not then you really do need to complain.

[claire1981]

You have only done a few posts & not provided any identifiable info as far as I'm aware- not sure why you don't want to say? You could always just use this account to get help with this & then create another one with a different email if you need other support & don't wish to be judged? Unless you fear being traced by admin from IP address for some reason?

 

I can relate to your feeling of GPs playing piggy in the middle. With complex, hard to prove problems the overriding fear they probably have is what if this person is faking it. Problems with communication do not help with evidence gathering to try & disprove this either. A GP will not want to do anything that they know may be used to automatically hand you a get out of jail free card. As if at any point it's later stated that you are fit to work, it will be seen as them making a wrong judgement. GPs know full well that the nature of an ATOS assessment would find a corpse fit for work, so it must be very hard for them to feel confident doing anything that may imply you are otherwise.

[claire1981]

I manged to get my GP to send me a letter stating I hadn't been out in X months (usually over 6 months) & can't get to an ATOS centre. They also suddenly added agoraphobia to my sick note. But unfortunately you do have to persist & go into detail about your problems. You also needed some sort of record to state you haven't been out eg every time you send a letter (+SAE) requesting a sick note, state you were unable to get in to see them as you have not been out since X. From this they will have at least time/dated evidence- it won't just be a sudden statement of convenience.

[mikv]

I manged to get my GP to send me a letter stating I hadn't been out in X months (usually over 6 months) & can't get to an ATOS centre. They also suddenly added agoraphobia to my sick note. But unfortunately you do have to persist & go into detail about your problems. You also needed some sort of record to state you haven't been out eg every time you send a letter (+SAE) requesting a sick note, state you were unable to get in to see them as you have not been out since X. From this they will have at least time/dated evidence- it won't just be a sudden statement of convenience.

 

I already told my gp i had only managed out once to the dentist since oct of 2010, since then I have not been in my bank , made withdrawl or spent anything locally other than a cheque I give to my folks for housing ( they own my flat ) and the things they pick up in store for me while their in town for their own shopping ( they live elsewhere )

I cant drive in lieu of my current issues ,and haven't renewed my bus pass since i last used it either.

If you asked anyone in my building who I was , they wouldnt even know as no one ( other than a few kids i have to warn off my ramp from my window ) because I have not been out my door ( other than dental visit last year )

[mikv]

I would certainly request a home visit, if you have stated to your surgery that you are housebound then they are obliged to send a doctor to you. If not then you really do need to complain.

 

thats not what I read .. see here

[mikv]

You have only done a few posts & not provided any identifiable info as far as I'm aware- not sure why you don't want to say? You could always just use this account to get help with this & then create another one with a different email if you need other support & don't wish to be judged? Unless you fear being traced by admin from IP address for some reason?

 

I can relate to your feeling of GPs playing piggy in the middle. With complex, hard to prove problems the overriding fear they probably have is what if this person is faking it. Problems with communication do not help with evidence gathering to try & disprove this either. A GP will not want to do anything that they know may be used to automatically hand you a get out of jail free card. As if at any point it's later stated that you are fit to work, it will be seen as them making a wrong judgement. GPs know full well that the nature of an ATOS assessment would find a corpse fit for work, so it must be very hard for them to feel confident doing anything that may imply you are otherwise.

 

I have not worked since 98 for my folks business and have a history of deterioration before i became housebound which the GP should be aware of too, afterall Ive on incapacity and DLA later since then , so its not like this is all sudden , my early symptoms of eds / hms go back to when I was 16 and in fact even before then when they were first identified at age 4 ( something I found out myself by requesting my history ) as I was never told / nor given follow up assessments at the time.

 

Communication is a problem for me if i cant talk without problems , much less type easily - if at all - what do they expect me to do ?

[claire1981]

I already told my gp i had only managed out once to the dentist since oct of 2010, since then I have not been in my bank , made withdrawl or spent anything locally other than a cheque I give to my folks for housing ( they own my flat ) and the things they pick up in store for me while their in town for their own shopping ( they live elsewhere )

I cant drive in lieu of my current issues ,and haven't renewed my bus pass since i last used it either.

If you asked anyone in my building who I was , they wouldnt even know as no one ( other than a few kids i have to warn off my ramp from my window ) because I have not been out my door ( other than dental visit last year )

 

The problem lies in when you first informed them of the difficulty! It's not even enough to have been diagnosed with a condition- you have to tell them exactly how it affects you (as if they didn't know). I only informed my GP in March & he only acknowledges I'm unable to go out since around this time onward. Plus I had to keep sending in fitness for work request continually stating not been out- bills paid by direct debit etc. After 6 months of doing this I also sent in my request for him to provide a letter for ATOS stating need home assessment.

 

I also sent GP a letter I received from DWP accepting good cause for not attending on this occasion from first missed ATOS appointment, but DWP letter stated I'd have to attend when asked again by ATOS. Sending this letter to the GP proves you have an undeniable genuine need for proof you can't attend & if he fails to respond he could get in trouble. The GP sent me a letter stating I can't get to the assessment + my medical history. Unfortunately my GP doesn't acknowledge aspergers as a condition & didn't list this- but DWP already had my aspergers report (not that it made any difference to them).

Edited September 15, 2013 by claire1981

[claire1981]

I have not worked since 98 for my folks business and have a history of deterioration before i became housebound which the GP should be aware of too, afterall Ive on incapacity and DLA later since then , so its not like this is all sudden , my early symptoms of eds / hms go back to when I was 16 and in fact even before then when they were first identified at age 4 ( something I found out myself by requesting my history ) as I was never told / nor given follow up assessments at the time.

 

Communication is a problem for me if i cant talk without problems , much less type easily - if at all - what do they expect me to do ?

 

I know what you mean. I'd probably be dead if it wasn't for voice recognition technology to help type what I say & my daughter to help me work it. It's very bad that society is still geared that if you can't communicate by phone/face-to-face in the demanded way, that you are simply ignored & not given priority. I hate to think of all the poor people who must die alone undiscovered for years because they weren't able to communicate or afford voice recognition etc.

[mikv]

I know what you mean. I'd probably be dead if it wasn't for voice recognition technology to help type what I say & my daughter to help me work it. It's very bad that society is still geared that if you can't communicate by phone/face-to-face in the demanded way, that you are simply ignored & not given priority. I hate to think of all the poor people who must die alone undiscovered for years because they weren't able to communicate or afford voice recognition etc.

 

I looked into it but i dont think it would help because of the nature of my issues and the fact its not actually that I cant talk , but rather I dont as result of its effects on me ( if that makes sense ) I mean what I believe I have is basically anomaly / subset of an already rare condition in EDS / HMS that was made worse by a fringe treatment I had in the US , that resulted in lesion in the very area there is no diagnostic scanning for. ( because it doesnt exist for even " regular EDS / HMS )

 

If I try to bring it up with Eds charity they usher me away because I frighten people . and you can only imagine the reaction from Gps.. so I actually have to pretend its far less worse than it is ( regular EDS / HMS ) otherwise no one would even listen to me.

 

And worst of all is the fact its invisible illness so it is not even obvious without a way to measure / compare connective tissue.