Car problems... possible fraud on motor finance?

[qa19]

I bought a car from a dealer 6 weeks ago and

 

noticed some stuttering accelerating when cold.

 

After some advice about this and the type of car

 

I got it checked out and found some engine errors on the ECU (knocking and misfiring).

 

It's likely carbon build up on the direct injection engine and won't be cheap to fix.

 

Although this can't be proved I suspect they knew about the fault as the car was a lot cheaper than it was worth.

 

The dealer provide 3 months warranty on all cars with £500 excess.

 

I know there's a satuatory law about car warranties, so what are my rights?

 

Can I tell them to pay for it all and also what if they say the warranty doesn't cover the engine?

[ACEFR3HL3Y]

a lot can happen to a car in 6 weeks,if there were errors on the ECU this would illuminate the dreaded engine management light on the dash....I presume this was off when you purchased car? might be a cheap fix,try putting some injector cleaner in the petrol(or diesel) tank and give it a blast!! misfire could be coil or something as simple as spark plugs...whats the make and model of car?

oh and £500 excess sounds a bit steep

[qa19]

a lot can happen to a car in 6 weeks,if there were errors on the ECU this would illuminate the dreaded engine management light on the dash....I presume this was off when you purchased car? might be a cheap fix,try putting some injector cleaner in the petrol(or diesel) tank and give it a blast!! misfire could be coil or something as simple as spark plugs...whats the make and model of car?

oh and £500 excess sounds a bit steep

 

I noticed the a slight stuttering the first time I drove it cold although didn't think anything of it until I started asking other mini owners. Didn't notice in the test drive as they had 'warmed' the car up before hand. The car is a Cooper S R56 and carbon build up is very common and not cheap to fix apparently. Wish I'd known this before buying. Injector cleaner wouldn't work on direct injection as the build up is on the valves. The car was tested by performance experts with realtime monitoring, they recorded lots of pre-ignitions while accelerating. I don't think it's something simple.

Can I demand they pay for it all?

[ACEFR3HL3Y]

not sure what you can demand,if anything...not being funny but why have you waited 6 weeks?I personally would've went back the next day,I'm kinda OCD when it comes things like that and would've googled it straight away

[postggj]

six weeks or six months, it does not matter

 

If a vehicle breaks down or is faulty within the first six months, the law regards the fault as their at time of purchase. you have to give the dealer an opportunity to fix the fault. If he refuses then reject the vehicle and issue a small claims action.

 

All the legislation is contained within the Sale of Goods Act

 

THE ONLY COST YOU MAY FACE IS AN INDAPENDANT INSPECTION REPORT BY THE AA/RAC, OR MAIN DEALER PRIOR TO REJECTING THE VEHICLE

[qa19]

not sure what you can demand,if anything...not being funny but why have you waited 6 weeks?I personally would've went back the next day,I'm kinda OCD when it comes things like that and would've googled it straight away

 

I didn't realise the very slight stutter when cold was indication of a big problem. We've had very cold weather in those 6 weeks and just put it down to that. Like you mentioned I was going to try some cleaner in the fuel.

 

They claim £500 excess... so I can tell them they need to pay for all of it?

[Conniff]

Disregard any warranty either given, implied or purchased. They are of no relevance and can have no affect on the Sale of Goods Act and the Sale of Goods to Consumer regulations.

 

Squaddie stop saying 'reject and issue a court summons' in the same sentence, that isn't how it works.

 

At six weeks you will have been deemed to have accepted the car but your recourse is still with the seller. Any problems are up to him to fix but the seller has the choice of repair, replace or refund and as I say, it is the dealers choice.

 

You would normally give him 3 attempts to fix it and then if it has not been fixed, you would reject the car by letter. If a rejection is refused, then you can think about court, but don't think about it if you won't be willing to go through with it.

 

Don't pay any 'excess' as this will be a claim for repair under the SOGA.

[postggj]

my comments about rejecting the vehicle if the dealer fails to rectify the fault comes straight from the which and the Sale of Goods Act 1979

 

Part II Section 14, as modified by the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982,

 

the supplier is in breach of contract by not supplying goods of satisfactory quality.

 

can you tell me please tell me coniff where in the sale of goods act you have to give the motor dealer three attempts to fix the problem

 

if the vehicle is faulty and the dealer fails to rectify the problem to your satisfaction, you are entitled to reject the goods and claim redress, part refund, exchange vehicle

Edited April 15, 2013 by squaddie

[qa19]

Disregard any warranty either given, implied or purchased. They are of no relevance and can have no affect on the Sale of Goods Act and the Sale of Goods to Consumer regulations.

 

Squaddie stop saying 'reject and issue a court summons' in the same sentence, that isn't how it works.

 

At six weeks you will have been deemed to have accepted the car but your recourse is still with the seller. Any problems are up to him to fix but the seller has the choice of repair, replace or refund and as I say, it is the dealers choice.

 

You would normally give him 3 attempts to fix it and then if it has not been fixed, you would reject the car by letter. If a rejection is refused, then you can think about court, but don't think about it if you won't be willing to go through with it.

 

Don't pay any 'excess' as this will be a claim for repair under the SOGA.

 

okay thanks. If he refuses to do it without excess shall I then send an immediate letter of rejection or send 2 further letters asking for repair? Also is it wise for me to still drive the car around and to and from his garage? The problem is carbon build up which happens over time so driving it wouldn't damage it further.

[postggj]

if you continue to drive the vehicle after you have reported it as faulty, and you have a major issue, engine failure for example, the garage is released from all responsibility

[qa19]

if you continue to drive the vehicle after you have reported it as faulty, and you have a major issue, engine failure for example, the garage is released from all responsibility

 

well the issue isnt' a major issue in failure terms. The cylinders are preigniting due to carbon build-up over the 27000 miles, it still drives normally but throws an error code in the ECU. Driving to and from their garage isn't going to make things any worse although if you think this may give them cause to get out of the warranty claim then I won't drive it.

[Conniff]

my comments about rejecting the vehicle if the dealer fails to rectify the fault comes straight from the wich and the Sale of Goods Act 1979

 

Part II Section 14, as modified by the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982,

 

the supplier is in breach of contract by not supplying goods of satisfactory quality.

 

can you tell me please tell me coniff where in the sale of goods act you have to give the motor dealer three attempts to fix the problem

 

if the vehicle is faulty and the dealer fails to rectify the problem to your satisfaction, you are entitled to reject the goods and claim redress, part refund, exchange vehicle

 

It's not what you say, it's the way you say it. Also the amount of chances for repair is the courts interpretation of the act.

 

The various regulations including the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002 are 'not' hard and fast rules.

 

I'm afraid it's simply not as easy as quoting SOGA and saying give me my money back.

[postggj]

You ask the garage what they want you to do

 

if they say bring it in on a low loader and the vehicle is faulty, they face the costs of that

 

 

if they say drive it in, get it confirmed via email

 

if you are reporting the vehicle as faulty with an issue such as the engine, you should not be driving it, its a get out of jail free card for the dealer

[postggj]

You give the dealer an opportunity to rectify the fault, give a replacement vehicle, or a cash alternative

 

If the dealer rejects your complaint, you get an independent report done on the vehicle, give the dealer one last chance to rectify the fault, if he then refuses

 

Reject the vehicle for breach of contract and SOGA and bring a civil claim

 

Any court will see the steps you have taken before starting litigation have been more than reasonable

 

As long as you have an independent report from a main dealer, or the AA/RAC, there should be no problems

[qa19]

You give the dealer an opportunity to rectify the fault, give a replacement vehicle, or a cash alternative

 

If the dealer rejects your complaint, you get an independent report done on the vehicle, give the dealer one last chance to rectify the fault, if he then refuses

 

Reject the vehicle for breach of contract and SOGA and bring a civil claim

 

Any court will see the steps you have taken before starting litigation have been more than reasonable

 

As long as you have an independent report from a main dealer, or the AA/RAC, there should be no problems

 

okay thanks for your help. I'll phone in the morning and confirm what they want to do.

[qa19]

okay update. They accepted the car with the usual salesmans 'there's nothing wrong with it' approach even after showing him the report. He said he's going to use his mate in another garage who's a 'specialist' for diagnosis. I highly suspect this report isn't going to be that the engine needs decoking. Can I reject this and use the official mini garage if I have to?

[postggj]

You have to give the dealer an opportunity to fix the problem, if you are not happy with the work done or report, you tell the dealer you are not happy and ask him to comply, if he refuses, you then get an independent report from a main dealer AA/RAC then reject the vehicle

 

You must at all times show that you are being reasonable and give the dealer the opportunity to address the problem, even though you suspect what you are being told is garbage

[qa19]

You have to give the dealer an opportunity to fix the problem, if you are not happy with the work done or report, you tell the dealer you are not happy and ask him to comply, if he refuses, you then get an independent report from a main dealer AA/RAC then reject the vehicle

 

You must at all times show that you are being reasonable and give the dealer the opportunity to address the problem, even though you suspect what you are being told is garbage

okay thanks

[qa19]

update... I'm unhappy with the repairs (or non-repairs) the dealer has done.

 

As expected they've fobbed me off and not done the job that's needs doing.

 

They intially said it was the exhaust valves then changed their mind after I rang them a few days later

and said they've just put additives in the tank to clean the engine.

 

I spoke to RAC/AA and their inspecion doesn't check ECU faults and problems with cylinder ignition.

 

What are my options?

 

I don't really want to reject the car as it's rare and a good car considering.

 

Can I take it to a independant garage and get the repairs done and then take them to court?

[postggj]

In your position i would take it to another main dealer and get a diagnostic report done. That will pick up any ECU faults

 

Don't tell them why you want the report, say the engine seems to be running a bit rough. They will be more inclined to give an accurate report if they consider they will get the work done them self

[qa19]

In your position i would take it to another main dealer and get a diagnostic report done. That will pick up any ECU faults

 

Don't tell them why you want the report, say the engine seems to be running a bit rough. They will be more inclined to give an accurate report if they consider they will get the work done them self

 

i think a trip to the BMW garage is in order. They wouldn't be able to argue with them especially in court.

[qa19]

okay a new update. The repairs (or lack of), as I suspected did nothing to fix the problem. I took it to a specialist who used an endoscope to video the intake valves and I have to say you'd think it was a coal power station down there. It's completely choked full of carbon especially on the stalks, the mechanic thinks there could be valve damage. One of the valves was so bad you couldn't even make out the valve.

 

Shall I send a written report and letter to the dealer demanding they fix it within 10 days or if they don't get my own garage to do it and charge them? As the mechanic pointed out, if the dealer does it themselves and there's valve damage the dealer is unlikely to fix them. Then 1-2 years down the line something will go bang and I'll have to fit the bill. Am I within my rights to claim loss of confidence and use my own mechanic who I can trust?

[postggj]

YES

 

Send a copy of the report to the garage and demand they rectify the issues by recorded delivery

You need to be getting at least three independent quotes on the damage as well.

i myself would just send a letter to the garage saying you reject the vehicle and issue a small claims action, or issue a small claims action for the cost of any repairs.

 

Remember, be reasonable at all times in your approach, which you have. I feel this is the last opportunity for the dealer now

[qa19]

ok a new update.

 

After sending a letter giving 2 options (do another repair properly, provide a courtesy car and reimburse me the diagnostic fee I had to pay out

or let me select my own garage and ill pay for lease car) they are refusing both.

 

They said they'll only use their own garage and no courtesy car even though leasing a car is going to cost me a fortune.

 

Where can I take it from here.

 

If I do the work myself will a court case rule in my favour?

[sailor sam]

Just come across this one.

 

Providing that the seller has had reasonable opportunity to rectify and has not done so, you would be within your rights to either inform the seller that you will now arrange repairs yourself and present him with the bill or formally reject the car as being not fit for the purpose. Either way, after the time limit that you give him expires, you can progress this to court and also claim 'consequential losses' such as car hire or any other associated expenses. But you must be able to produce invoices/receipts to support your claim.

 

If you choose to reject the car, you must do it in writing (by recorded means) and once posted, you must not use the car from then on or effect any further repairs.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.