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Abbey National Endowment Mortgage, Santander giving us the runaround


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My parents have just finalised an endowment mortgage originally taken out with Abbey, (in around 1976) & were expecting a lump sum - they are now being told that they can only have 25% of the annuity in cash, & the remainder paid on a regular basis. I'm trying to help them get to the truth of it, they're sure they should be able to get this lump sum as per the original mortgage agreement.

 

They have all the relavent paperwork, however during a recent phonecall to Santander, they were told that Aviva is now "dealing with this aspect of the mortgage". They are considering the FOS, however I feel that this should be resolvable between them & the lender, & the ombudsman should be a last-resort. As I'm only familiar with my own mortgage, I'm unsure where they stand, if anybody can offer any advice here - they are adamant they've never signed any "changes to terms/agreement" type letters.

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Can you check that your parents did indeed have an "Endowment" mortgage or was it a "Pension" mortgage.

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What you should not do is try to resolve this on the telephone.

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4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

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2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

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PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Hello there.

 

I agree with CitizenB, if they're talking about a 25% lump sum and an annuity, it sounds like a pension mortgage.

 

Where do Aviva come into it please?

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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CitizenB, they are sure it was an endowment, & that the pension aspect was never mentioned in the arrangement - from what I gather, this is what it's now being refered to, by Santander/AVIVA. AVIVA come into it as Santander are telling them "AVIVA now deals with this arrangement" - ? Why not try to resolve on the fone, they have written a letter asking for an explanation, & mentioning they wanted a response within 14 days - this was around a month ago, no reply.

 

The mortgage was for £16.5k originally, & the basic idea was that the payout would settle the mortgage balance in full, at completion of the term - They have been overpaying, & have paid the mortgage up in full, on the understanding that they would get the 16.5k in cash. Santander are now saying that they can only have a maximum of 25% as a lump sum, with the remainder spread over (monthly, I think) payments.

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Hello again and thank you for that.

 

Do your parents have all the documentation from setting this up? It sounds as if the endowment/pension plan is with Aviva, who were called something else in 1976, maybe Norwich Union/Commercial Union/Provident Mutual? I think there were others who were bought by Aviva.

 

If Aviva sold the policy to your parents, your argument would be with them, unless Abbey National sold it as agents for Aviva. A possible problem I can see is that 1976 was well before the Financial Services Act, so I'm not sure how a mis-selling case would be affected. There was less paperwork in those days.

 

If your parents can find the setting up paperwork, this would back up their argument. Do they know they name of the policy they were paying into, maybe from their bank account details or from Aviva's paperwork.

 

Sorry for all the questions. I'll also send a message to the Aviva rep here and see if they can help at all.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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There are quite a few questions that might need asking so it really is important you obtain the paperwork.

 

Was the Endowment in BOTH your parents names - in which case, I cant see this being a Pension Policy.

 

Did either of them qualify for Company pension schemes - in which case if this is a Pension Policy, it might have been mis sold.

 

This of course is all assumption based on the information you have provided to us.

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3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Guest Aviva Support
CitizenB, they are sure it was an endowment, & that the pension aspect was never mentioned in the arrangement - from what I gather, this is what it's now being refered to, by Santander/AVIVA. AVIVA come into it as Santander are telling them "AVIVA now deals with this arrangement" - ? Why not try to resolve on the fone, they have written a letter asking for an explanation, & mentioning they wanted a response within 14 days - this was around a month ago, no reply.

 

The mortgage was for £16.5k originally, & the basic idea was that the payout would settle the mortgage balance in full, at completion of the term - They have been overpaying, & have paid the mortgage up in full, on the understanding that they would get the 16.5k in cash. Santander are now saying that they can only have a maximum of 25% as a lump sum, with the remainder spread over (monthly, I think) payments.

 

Hi gavva1,

 

I'd like to help look into this for you and your parents.

 

Can you please email me at social@aviva.co.uk with the following information:

 

  • Your parents full names
  • Dates of birth
  • Current full address
  • Any plan or policy reference number
  • Please also mention your CAG username
  • Any other details you'd like to include

As soon as I have your email I'll liaise with the relevant team to have this investigated for you.

 

Kind regards,

 

Martin Banwell

Aviva Social Media Support

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Thank-You for the replies - Santander are referring to it as an endowment policy in their correspondence, to update - the policy was taken as an interest-only mortgage with an endowment policy - I believe my Mother was in employment by the local primary school at the time it was arranged, in 1987. She would have been contributing to a county-council pension scheme. My Father was self-employed.

 

The endowment aspect was with Norwich Union, (possibly another company at the time, who were taken over by NU ) who then became AVIVA - Their understanding was that it was perfectly OK to overpay the monthly payments, & then collect the lump-sum at completion - which was intended to settle the mortgage balance (I'm unclear how they were overpaying an interest-only mortgage)

 

I've contacted the guy at AVIVA, with all the requested info.

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Righto, there should not have been a pension mortgage written up for your mother.

 

 

Lets see if Martin of Aviva can shed some light on to this for you.

Edited by citizenB
Incorrect information posted up.

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2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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HoneyBee, the original endowment was with Provident Mutual, & was in both their names. Also, although the original mortgage was arranged in 1976, this rearrangement was made in 1987. (Unsure if that affects the misselling guidelines?) Martin has replied to say he's forwarded this issue to the endowments team at AVIVA, hopefully they'll be back in touch soon

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Well AVIVA have been back in touch, the jist of their reply:

 

"We’re sending full policy details out in the post to your parents.

 

I can’t go into specific details of the policies, but I can confirm that we can’t trace any endowments. We recommend getting in touch with Santander to request full details on the mortgage your parents have."

 

We're in the process of getting Santander to send everything they have, so when they say they can't trace any endowments - I'm assuming that's as opposed to pension-mortgages? /Pension-policies? If that's correct, they are claiming that this is how the thing was transferred to them, from Santander.

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Hello again.

 

That sounds very confusing to me. I don't really understand the relationship between Abbey and Aviva, it would be nice if they could confirm. Maybe the letter to your parents will give more information.

 

I don't suppose you've found any more information from when the loan was set up?

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Once you receive the policy details and the mortgage information from Santander, it might shed more light on this.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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  • 3 weeks later...

A "letter Of Authority" has arrived from Santander, which requires a signature from My Parents & Myself - it requests, alongside signatures & personal details, the "Pension Provider(s) & Pension Policy / Membership number(s)" - I'm now dealing with it, but if we provide the mortgage Ref. & then sign the letter, are we then agreeing that it's a pension Mortgage?

 

I hope this doesn't sound paranoid, but I don't trust banks whatsoever, & I know enough of Santander from my own affairs to know how awful they are. Would you sign & return it? HoneyBee - I don't understand it either, from what I gather Santander basically "block-sold" a load of these to Aviva - Who incidentally were excellent at getting the info across to me VERY quickly. This suggests that they received it as a pension, which means the switch was made either by Santander, or Abbey, or Provident Mutual - now as Santander bought Abbey out, I would think the responsibility lies with them. (That's my feeling).

 

I couldn't understand how my parents were able to pay down the balance on an interest-only mortgage, but they were assured TIME & AGAIN by santander that if the balance was decreased, this would not affect the lump-sum payout intended to clear the original capital loan.

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Also the letter accompanying this form, a "LETTER OF AUTHORITY" form, to allow me to deal with this on their behalf, also REPEATEDLY requests THEIR daytime phone number!! "In case we need to discuss your complaint in person". ??? I've told my parents to give them MY phone number, & not discuss the policy with them - thx to CitizenB - Are they really that big a bunch of ****s that they would try & coax an agreement from my parents, knowing that I will be dealing with it for them?

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A "letter Of Authority" has arrived from Santander, which requires a signature from My Parents & Myself - it requests, alongside signatures & personal details, the "Pension Provider(s) & Pension Policy / Membership number(s)" - I'm now dealing with it, but if we provide the mortgage Ref. & then sign the letter, are we then agreeing that it's a pension Mortgage?

 

I hope this doesn't sound paranoid, but I don't trust banks whatsoever, & I know enough of Santander from my own affairs to know how awful they are. Would you sign & return it? HoneyBee - I don't understand it either, from what I gather Santander basically "block-sold" a load of these to Aviva - Who incidentally were excellent at getting the info across to me VERY quickly. This suggests that they received it as a pension, which means the switch was made either by Santander, or Abbey, or Provident Mutual - now as Santander bought Abbey out, I would think the responsibility lies with them. (That's my feeling).

 

I couldn't understand how my parents were able to pay down the balance on an interest-only mortgage, but they were assured TIME & AGAIN by santander that if the balance was decreased, this would not affect the lump-sum payout intended to clear the original capital loan.

 

Hello again.

 

I'm also confused by this turn of events and will have a think. But if someone sets up any kind of policy, they sign a proposal form and should understand what they're signing up for. You can't transfer pensions into endowments or vice versa, HMRC would stop you because they're different regimes.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hi HoneyBee, ok thanks for that - So do you think it's OK to sign & return this "Authority Form"?

 

I'm not a legal expert, so I can only advise on what I know.

 

Why are they calling it a complaint? I understood you just want information. Complaints can take a while to investigate, unless that's what you want to do now.

 

I didn't think you need to ask them for a letter of authority When I've needed one, I've written it myself, something short and to the point like 'We [parents] authorise [son] of [address] to receive information on our mortgage/policy [number] and should be grateful if you would provide him with all relevant information that he requests.'

 

Then I've sent that letter with th reqest for information. 'I enclose a Letter of Authority and should be grateful if you would provide me with the following infomation, at the above address.' Then you haven't agreed to anything. Of course if they try to get funny about using your own letter, you've lost a bit more time.

 

Forgive me if I'm being thick, I don't understand why they're making such a meal of it, but maybe I've missed something?

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

My parents have now received a letter from AVIVA, saying that they've received a request from Santander for information, & saying "we've noticed that your signature has changed". It hasn't. & They've got it about a dozen times now.

 

Now, AVIVA have received a letter of authority from my parents, then Santander got the same, then Santander got a SECOND signature from them to allow them to discuss the policy with AVIVA, & NOW AVIVA WANT PASSPORT COPIES, SIGNED BY A LAWYER/BANKER (BECUASE THEY'RE TRUSTWORTHY!!)

 

I NOW FEEL IT'S TIME TO MAKE A COMPLAINT TO THE CHAIRMANS OFFICE OF BOTH THESE OUTFITS

 

If anyone can give me the address for the high-level compalints for both companies, this would be much appreciated. They're being lied-to, passed around, & we're all generally pretty sick of it now. AVIVA & Santander have had so many letters requesting signatures, what a complete joke.

Edited by gavva1
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IMHO, I would send them one last letter, send it to their Head/Registered office addressed the CEO. Head it Formal Complaint. Give them 14 days to respond properly and to stop giving you the run around, you can confirm that if they don't, then you will be escalating to the Financial Ombudsman. Keep an eye on the calendar, and if no response - or they imply they are going to continue making unreasonable demands for signatures and copies of passports notarised by a solicitor, then you should not hesitate but to escalate your complaint to the Ombudsman.

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

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1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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  • 2 months later...

The saga continues, I phoned AVIVA on Monday & had a moan - They've sent a letter, expressing their sorrow that I've had to contact them (?) & they'll contact me soon to inform me who will be dealing with my concerns. To tighten up the info on this, my parents took out a mortgage in '76 with Abbey, which they rearranged in '87. The rearranged mortgage was interest-only, with a separate endowment, set up AT the Abbey Branch, but with Provident-Mutual. The interest-only payments were made monthly to Abbey, & a separate dd for the payment to provident-mutual (then Norwich Union, Then AVIVA). They overpaid the annuity, being told they would be entitled to the lump-sum at completion.

 

Their accountant had a look at the paperwork for the annuiy, & remarked it was a "pension-annuity". He knew this from the account number/letter configuration. If an AVIVA rep, Martin Banwell or anybody else, could take the reigns on this, it has taken a daft amount of time to get very little progress. I have a draft letter of complaint to the chairman.

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