massive problem with benefits overpayment - desperate for help cant cope anymore

[hollow_atom]

I feel so low writing this post, but i dont know what else to do. I feel so low, that i have been seriously considering ending my own life. I have always been so strong and such a fighter too, and i am now pre-occupied with thoughts that i just cant take it any longer.

 

Basically, to cut a long story short, I used to have a multi million pound business, that i started from scratch and with nothing. Life was good. Then things started to go wrong. I suffered a nervous breakdown in 2006, and lost my company, our home, my car, every material possesion we had. we were literally homeless. I dug deep, and fought on, dragged us up out of the gutter, doing amy job, and anything i could think of to get by. we rented a place, and started to get things back on track.

 

I was having problems paying council tax so a very helpful guy at the council get me access to a debrt crisis counceller, who was helping me sort everything out, but then their funding was cut.

 

I had a massive pile of debt letter, and just felt that the mountain was too big to ever overcome, so i just worked on and thought, well i can never repair this, so just live life one day at a time.

 

I lose my job, and on advice, in aug 2009 my father passed away, which was the biggest negative event in my life. I just about lost my mind, and on advice i made a housing benefit claim, after never claiming any benefits in my life of any kind, and after paying LOTS of tax on jobs and thru my large company when it was good.

 

The next few years were the worst. one thing or another, and i realise now i never truly recovered from my breakdown and health issues.

 

So the housing claim continued and we lived by the grace of some help from my mother and other relatives. I also developed a skill in carpentry in this time and i did try and make some money where i could, and im sad to say i never declared it to housing.

 

Everything was so bleak in this period and i have no idea how we got thru it. Then in spring 2012 my wife has a massive and sudden heart attack and has experienced ongoing major health concerns over this condition ever since.

 

Fast Forward to June 2012, i had developed my work skills enough to make a full time living as a carpenter .. literally the very week i was going to cancel our housing claim, as i felt i could make a good go of work, housing wrote to me and said they had suspended the benefit and wanted to go through all my bank statements before starting it up again. So i thought, well i was going to cancel it anyway, so i just left the situation as it was as i didnt want to be on housing benefits any longer.

 

Work was going well, and in the summer last year we moved house into a new rented place.

 

I informed tax credits of our change of address and have never tried to claim another benefit at all since then. promised myself i would never surrender to that system again. i found it belittling and embarrassing.

 

work was going great, making a decent living, but certainly not tons of money. so happy enough to work at home as a carpenter and care for my wife at the same time.

 

still never addressed any of the debt as i felt and still do feel, that the mountain is too big to climb. and despite working 50 hours per week, got behind on council tax.

 

so i have been dealing with council tax bailiffs, which i can just about cope with.

 

but today i got a letter from housing benefits basically saying

 

you made a claim from late 2009 to 2012, but we have been alterted to the fact that you have bank accounts you did not declare to us, and had payments going into them during that time that you did not declare. it goes on to say that they wrote to me several times ( but i had moved house by then and never got the letters ) , and because i never replied, they have ruled that my entire claim for that period is an overpayment. it totals £12,000 in housing and £3,000 in council tax.

 

the letter says i have 28 days to pay it, and mentions prosecution / possible prison.

 

my wife is very ill right now, in and out of hospital, and i darent tell her about the letter. she is meat to avoid stress !

 

I make just enough money right now to get by, anbd by get by, i mean pay the rent, utilities, heating, put a bit of petrol in my car, buy food, and thats about it.

 

I just dont know what to do, and have been sat here all day having visions of going to prison over this.

 

My whole life since i lost my company in 2006 has been a total trainwreck and i just dont know what to do any longer. Im so tired of it all, and can never envision a situation where all this rubbish is off my back. i feel like if i try to face the debts ill jyst be working to pay them for all my life and we wont even be able to afford a place to rent.

 

It is so hard for me to admit this and to seek help. I am terrified and at the end of my tether.

 

I really think they will send me to prison as i can not afford to pay £15,000 +

 

I have bumbled thru all this with the best of intentions, but i felt like maybe someone out there can give me some advice or help me. I want to live, and to be free, but this debt and problems are burying me and i cant deal with it any longer.

[honeybee13]

Hello there. I'm sorry to hear you're going through the mill.

 

Prison is rarely an option, my guess would be that you would be expected to repay any overclaim at a rate you could afford without going into hardshiop.

 

I hope the forum guys will be along later with advice for you.

 

My best, HB

[hollow_atom]

Thanks so much for your reply, much appreciated. You just see all these stories in the Mainstream Media about people going to prison for benefits overclaim, and it's freaking me out.

Does anyone know if i was to go bankrupt am i able to include this debt in it ?

[caro]

I don't know the answer to your question but wondered if your wife might be entitled to DLA and/or you could get carers allowance.

 

Do you believe that you were ever entitled to the benefits claimed? You're going to have to face this problem as you can't pay it all back now, so I think it's worth you appealing the amount if you believe the overpayment is lower.

 

Have they suggested that they may prosecute for fraud?

 

I agree that prison is not likely to be considered. They want the money back and not to spend more by locking you up.

[citizenkain]

your not likely to go to prison so relax on that one,they usually want the overpayment back,well,they always want it back,but they set up a payment plan with you that you can afford,you just need to get your head round that,for all you know when they sort out all the comings and goings of your money its probably isnt as bad as you might think

[abc123def]

I would get a face to face appointment either with the Citizens Advice Bureau or with CAP both of which provide free advice and help.

 

Honestly, when you finally stop running and face up to dealing with the overpayment (with support) and the repayments are agreed and you start paying it back and you know that it's all going to be ok eventually you will feel so much better emotionally.

[45002]

I feel so low writing this post, but i dont know what else to do. I feel so low, that i have been seriously considering ending my own life. I have always been so strong and such a fighter too, and i am now pre-occupied with thoughts that i just cant take it any longer.

 

Basically, to cut a long story short, I used to have a multi million pound business, that i started from scratch and with nothing. Life was good. Then things started to go wrong. I suffered a nervous breakdown in 2006, and lost my company, our home, my car, every material possesion we had. we were literally homeless. I dug deep, and fought on, dragged us up out of the gutter, doing amy job, and anything i could think of to get by. we rented a place, and started to get things back on track.

 

I was having problems paying council tax so a very helpful guy at the council get me access to a debrt crisis counceller, who was helping me sort everything out, but then their funding was cut.

 

I had a massive pile of debt letter, and just felt that the mountain was too big to ever overcome, so i just worked on and thought, well i can never repair this, so just live life one day at a time.

 

I lose my job, and on advice, in aug 2009 my father passed away, which was the biggest negative event in my life. I just about lost my mind, and on advice i made a housing benefit claim, after never claiming any benefits in my life of any kind, and after paying LOTS of tax on jobs and thru my large company when it was good.

 

The next few years were the worst. one thing or another, and i realise now i never truly recovered from my breakdown and health issues.

 

So the housing claim continued and we lived by the grace of some help from my mother and other relatives. I also developed a skill in carpentry in this time and i did try and make some money where i could, and im sad to say i never declared it to housing.

 

Everything was so bleak in this period and i have no idea how we got thru it. Then in spring 2012 my wife has a massive and sudden heart attack and has experienced ongoing major health concerns over this condition ever since.

 

Fast Forward to June 2012, i had developed my work skills enough to make a full time living as a carpenter .. literally the very week i was going to cancel our housing claim, as i felt i could make a good go of work, housing wrote to me and said they had suspended the benefit and wanted to go through all my bank statements before starting it up again. So i thought, well i was going to cancel it anyway, so i just left the situation as it was as i didnt want to be on housing benefits any longer.

 

Work was going well, and in the summer last year we moved house into a new rented place.

 

I informed tax credits of our change of address and have never tried to claim another benefit at all since then. promised myself i would never surrender to that system again. i found it belittling and embarrassing.

 

work was going great, making a decent living, but certainly not tons of money. so happy enough to work at home as a carpenter and care for my wife at the same time.

 

still never addressed any of the debt as i felt and still do feel, that the mountain is too big to climb. and despite working 50 hours per week, got behind on council tax.

 

so i have been dealing with council tax bailiffs, which i can just about cope with.

 

but today i got a letter from housing benefits basically saying

you made a claim from late 2009 to 2012, but we have been altered to the fact that you have bank accounts you did not declare to us, and had payments going into them during that time that you did not declare. it goes on to say that they wrote to me several times ( but i had moved house by then and never got the letters ) , and because i never replied, they have ruled that my entire claim for that period is an overpayment. it totals £12,000 in housing and £3,000 in council tax.

 

the letter says i have 28 days to pay it, and mentions prosecution / possible prison.

 

my wife is very ill right now, in and out of hospital, and i darent tell her about the letter. she is meat to avoid stress !

 

I make just enough money right now to get by, anbd by get by, i mean pay the rent, utilities, heating, put a bit of petrol in my car, buy food, and thats about it.

 

I just dont know what to do, and have been sat here all day having visions of going to prison over this.

 

My whole life since i lost my company in 2006 has been a total trainwreck and i just dont know what to do any longer. Im so tired of it all, and can never envision a situation where all this rubbish is off my back. i feel like if i try to face the debts ill jyst be working to pay them for all my life and we wont even be able to afford a place to rent.

 

It is so hard for me to admit this and to seek help. I am terrified and at the end of my tether.

 

I really think they will send me to prison as i can not afford to pay £15,000 +

 

I have bumbled thru all this with the best of intentions, but i felt like maybe someone out there can give me some advice or help me. I want to live, and to be free, but this debt and problems are burying me and i cant deal with it any longer.

 

 

 

Can I ask theses bank accounts the HB say you didn't declare !

 

What where theses payments going into theses accounts from 2009 to 2012,HB say you didn't declare ?

Edited August 22, 2013 by 45002

[hollow_atom]

I don't know the answer to your question but wondered if your wife might be entitled to DLA and/or you could get carers allowance.

 

Do you believe that you were ever entitled to the benefits claimed? You're going to have to face this problem as you can't pay it all back now, so I think it's worth you appealing the amount if you believe the overpayment is lower.

 

Have they suggested that they may prosecute for fraud?

 

I agree that prison is not likely to be considered. They want the money back and not to spend more by locking you up.

 

Thanks sincerely to everyone for the replies

 

Yes i do believe I was genuinely entitled to the claim, but i stupidly did not tell them of various bits & pieces of income i was able to get from time to time. it certainly wasnt anything you could live off without help. I feel so stupid.

 

Yes the letter does intimate i was be prosecuted as a seperate matter from me paying it back

 

quote from the letter

 

" we may need to see you again about this matter. however any action we take to recover overpayments of benefit the meantime will not affect future action, including proceedings in a criminal court, which may be taken "

 

im not sure if that is standard scare speak for these letters, or if im in really super big trouble here

[hollow_atom]

in reply to "45002 " ( to save re quoting the entire post ) , im not entirely sure of the amounts. we have a bunch of accounts, all stemming from when i had all my bank accounts frozen in 2006, and was only ever able to get a student type money manager account. we ended up with about 8 of the things across 2 banks. i know at one point i let my daughter use one of the accounts to have her wages paid into, and eventually she opened her own bank account and gave me that one back. I also had various payments into my account from bits & pieces of carpentry work i was able to get, but my no means a proper wage.

 

when they say they are aware of payments i had going into an account , are they likely to have been given access to my account details by the bank and actually looked at my accounts ? i didnt think they were allowed to do that without a warrant or a court order or something ?

 

does anyone know, if i declare bankrupt ( which i essentially am ) can this debt go with it ? Its over 15k , and if i was to be able to pay even £100 per month, which is a very generous estimate on my part, it would take 150 months to pay it back .

 

i have 2 worries here, 1 . that im totally screwed financially and can never get out of the mess, and 2 ) they are going to send me to prison, which i cant comprehend

[caro]

Yes they can get access to your bank accounts. The warnings that they may prosecute are standard, but nonetheless real.

 

I would strongly suggest that you start communicating honestly with them to try and avoid prosecution or at least show you've been cooperative should it get to court.

[hollow_atom]

thanks again. would you suggest i write a reply letter ? i did not deliberately ignore their previous letters as i did not receive them due to moving.

 

i rather foolishly spent the last hour reading about cases where people were prosecuted for overpayments and what their punishments etc were

 

do you know, am i within my rights to asl them to provide me with evidence of their claims ? the letter they sent me is faor;ly vague and the accusations very serious. one would think i would be within my rights legally to ask them to give me further information ?

[antone]

It's not really a "scare tactic" as such - they are required to inform you of possible consequences. And it is correct that there are two separate issues here: the overpayment, which is a civil matter; and the possibility of fraud, which is a criminal matter. Even if you are not guilty of fraud, you can still be required to repay the overpayment. The two issues are independent of each other.

 

Now, as it is, I don't see prison as likely. But you have failed to inform the HB department of changes in your circumstances (specifically, your income) which would or could have affected your benefit entitlement. When you claim a benefit, you agree to notify the council of any such changes in circumstances.

 

So it's not totally unreasonable of them to investigate this. I'd say seek advice from the CAB or, if you can, from a solicitor experienced in benefit matters.

[caro]

thanks again. would you suggest i write a reply letter ? i did not deliberately ignore their previous letters as i did not receive them due to moving.

 

i rather foolishly spent the last hour reading about cases where people were prosecuted for overpayments and what their punishments etc were

 

do you know, am i within my rights to asl them to provide me with evidence of their claims ? the letter they sent me is faor;ly vague and the accusations very serious. one would think i would be within my rights legally to ask them to give me further information ?

I think it would be perfectly acceptable to write and tell them that you didn't receive earlier correspondence and ask for copies of everything previously sent.

 

You'll know what you're dealing with then.

[45002]

Thanks sincerely to everyone for the replies

 

Yes i do believe I was genuinely entitled to the claim, but i stupidly did not tell them of various bits & pieces of income i was able to get from time to time. it certainly wasnt anything you could live off without help. I feel so stupid.

 

Yes the letter does intimate i was be prosecuted as a separate matter from me paying it back

 

quote from the letter

 

" we may need to see you again about this matter. however any action we take to recover overpayments of benefit the meantime will not affect future action, including proceedings in a criminal court, which may be taken "

 

im not sure if that is standard scare speak for these letters, or if im in really super big trouble here

 

 

 

in reply to "45002 " ( to save re quoting the entire post ) , im not entirely sure of the amounts. we have a bunch of accounts, all stemming from when i had all my bank accounts frozen in 2006, and was only ever able to get a student type money manager account. we ended up with about 8 of the things across 2 banks. i know at one point i let my daughter use one of the accounts to have her wages paid into, and eventually she opened her own bank account and gave me that one back. I also had various payments into my account from bits & pieces of carpentry work i was able to get, but my no means a proper wage.

 

when they say they are aware of payments i had going into an account , are they likely to have been given access to my account details by the bank and actually looked at my accounts ? i didn't think they were allowed to do that without a warrant or a court order or something ?

 

does anyone know, if i declare bankrupt ( which i essentially am ) can this debt go with it ? Its over 15k , and if i was to be able to pay even £100 per month, which is a very generous estimate on my part, it would take 150 months to pay it back .

 

i have 2 worries here, 1 . that im totally screwed financially and can never get out of the mess, and 2 ) they are going to send me to prison, which i cant comprehend

 

They can get access to your bank accounts when investigating suspected benefit fraud...

 

You say you had a bunch of accounts and HB say you had a payments going into them !

 

Surely you must have know what was been paid into those accounts between 2009-2012,bank statements,on line banking,mini statements at cash points or going into your bank and asking for a balance...

 

When you claiming HB on the form it says and ask what bank accounts you have plus how much is in them and that you have to send ordinal copies of your bank statements in with you HB form when claiming.

 

Please read parts 9 and 10 of HB form http://www.dwp.gov.uk/advisers/claimforms/hctb1_print.pdf

 

Pages 17 to 20

 

Then read the deceleration Part 17 on page 30....

Edited August 22, 2013 by 45002

[hollow_atom]

They can get access to your bank accounts when investigating suspected benefit fraud...

 

You say you had a bunch of accounts and HB say you had a payments going into them !

 

Surely you must have know what was been paid into those accounts between 2009-2012,bank statements,on line banking,mini statements at cash points or going into your bank and asking for a balance...

 

When you claiming HB on the form it says and ask what bank accounts do you have plus how much is in them and that you have to send ordinal copies of your bank statements in with you HB form when claiming.

 

Please read parts 9 and 10 of HB form "

 

Thanks. I honestly could not give you a figure. I have obviously totally f*cked up. That time period was really messy in my life, and well its all a bit mad. I dont know how we get through it, and looking back, as i explained in my OP, i never recovered from my nervous breakdown and mental health issues. those years after my dad died seem like a total blur.

 

i have messed up and i know it. hence why i cant seem to see a way through this situation. im in major trouble with this, and im desperate for a solution

[45002]

 

Thanks. I honestly could not give you a figure. I have obviously totally f*cked up. That time period was really messy in my life, and well its all a bit mad. I dont know how we get through it, and looking back, as i explained in my OP, i never recovered from my nervous breakdown and mental health issues. those years after my dad died seem like a total blur.

 

i have messed up and i know it. hence why i cant seem to see a way through this situation. im in major trouble with this, and im desperate for a solution

 

You need to see a solicitor or go to your local CAB for legal advice ASAP

 

HB are going to want the over payment back....

Edited August 22, 2013 by 45002

[caro]

They can get access to your bank accounts when investigating suspected benefit fraud...

 

You say you had a bunch of accounts and HB say you had a payments going into them !

 

Surely you must have know what was been paid into those accounts between 2009-2012,bank statements,on line banking,mini statements at cash points or going into your bank and asking for a balance...

 

When you claiming HB on the form it says and ask what bank accounts do you have plus how much is in them and that you have to send ordinal copies of your bank statements in with you HB form when claiming.

 

Please read parts 9 and 10 of HB form "

 

Thanks. I honestly could not give you a figure. I have obviously totally f*cked up. That time period was really messy in my life, and well its all a bit mad. I dont know how we get through it, and looking back, as i explained in my OP, i never recovered from my nervous breakdown and mental health issues. those years after my dad died seem like a total blur.

 

i have messed up and i know it. hence why i cant seem to see a way through this situation. im in major trouble with this, and im desperate for a solution

 

There's no point beating yourself up about what's already happened. What matters now is how you deal with it.

 

Presumably your medical records will confirm your breakdown and health issues. Maybe this will be taken into consideration.

[hollow_atom]

You need to see a solicitor or go to your local CAB for legal advice ASAP

 

HB are going to want the over payment back....

 

Blood from a stone though. I cant find £15,000. I will get advice from the CAB, and in the meantime i will write the HB back and explain that o never got their previous letters and ask for a copy of them. and also more information on their claims. do you think that is ok ? as i said before. the info in their letter is very vague so i want to know if im within my rights to write to them and ask what evidence they have. i researched this a LOT tonight, and its funny that they never tried to get me in for an interview or whatever.

[caro]

Blood from a stone though. I cant find £15,000. I will get advice from the CAB, and in the meantime i will write the HB back and explain that o never got their previous letters and ask for a copy of them. and also more information on their claims. do you think that is ok ? as i said before. the info in their letter is very vague so i want to know if im within my rights to write to them and ask what evidence they have. i researched this a LOT tonight, and its funny that they never tried to get me in for an interview or whatever.

I thought that odd too but maybe they did and you didn't get the letter.

[paulson1985]

My advise is to appeal the overpayment I think you have 1 month to do this, This will give you a breathing space to get your head together and think clearly Good Luck

[45002]

Blood from a stone though. I cant find £15,000. I will get advice from the CAB, and in the meantime i will write the HB back and explain that o never got their previous letters and ask for a copy of them. and also more information on their claims. do you think that is ok ? as i said before. the info in their letter is very vague so i want to know if im within my rights to write to them and ask what evidence they have. i researched this a LOT tonight, and its funny that they never tried to get me in for an interview or whatever.

 

Personal,I think that you didn't get these letters doesn't matter.....

 

It's the fact you didn't declare your banks accounts and what was been paid into is what HB will use against you and it does ask for theses on HB form link I posted for you.

 

As I posted and fellow CAG user have advise you.

 

You need to see a solicitor or go to your local CAB for legal advice ASAP

 

HB are going to want the over payment back....

 

Good luck,keep CAG posted...

Edited August 22, 2013 by 45002

[antone]

Blood from a stone though. I cant find £15,000. I will get advice from the CAB, and in the meantime i will write the HB back and explain that o never got their previous letters and ask for a copy of them. and also more information on their claims. do you think that is ok ? as i said before. the info in their letter is very vague so i want to know if im within my rights to write to them and ask what evidence they have. i researched this a LOT tonight, and its funny that they never tried to get me in for an interview or whatever.

 

You're quite within your rights to ask them for more information, though if they were considering prosecution they'd be within their rights to withhold details at this stage - though not indefinitely. They should, however, detail how they believe the overpayment has arisen, whatever their plans are.

 

They wouldn't call you in for an Interview Under Caution unless they were considering prosecution, and at this stage they may not have made a decision on that matter.

 

I restate my own advice and second that of poster 40052 - it would be a good idea to seek legal advice.

[tokenfield]

I don't know the answer to your question but wondered if your wife might be entitled to DLA and/or you could get carers allowance.

 

Do you believe that you were ever entitled to the benefits claimed? You're going to have to face this problem as you can't pay it all back now, so I think it's worth you appealing the amount if you believe the overpayment is lower.

 

Have they suggested that they may prosecute for fraud?

 

I agree that prison is not likely to be considered. They want the money back and not to spend more by locking you up.

 

I worked and claimed and didn't declare the income. I earned peanuts to be honest, just something extra to put a bit of jam on the table every now and then.

 

This period of working and claiming covered a period of 15 months.

 

I also claimed Council Tax Benefit as well.

 

In total the amount that they said that I owed was just over £12,000.

 

I elected to go to trial at Crown Court and received a 6 month prison sentence, with 5 months of it suspended for 1 year. I actually only spent 2 weeks of the 1 month in prison. On top of that they wanted the £12,000 back - I still have £3500 to pay back. If that isn't paid by the end of this year, I have been told that I will have to go back to court and could very well be sent down again.

 

I had a clean record and had never been in trouble before with anything.

 

So yes you can and could go to prison for £15,000 - I did for £12,000!!!

[jadeybags]

A benefit solicitor will help you get that over payment down by working out exactly what small income you did get from carpentry work. This over payment is based on them taking back ALL of your benefits because so far they have no info to show you were actually entitled. You can't be having that.

[abc123def]

To answer the earlier question of bankruptcy. Bankruptcy only writes off debt to the DWP/LA/HMRC if the overpayments were caused by the agencies themselves. Any overpayment that was caused by fraud ie. incorrect claim forms, failure to notifiy changes of circumstances or income, is never written off by a bankruptcy and you would remain fully liable for the debt following bankruptcy. So bankruptcy is not a solution here.

 

However they cannot take what you haven't got, so hopefully with the assistance of either CAB or CAP, you will be able to agree repayment terms that are affordable. I would supect whether they prosecute for fraud will come down to a few things, how open and honest and compliant you are now, and whether they believe that not declaring accounts and income by merely forgetting or not realising is plausable or whether it was reasonable for you to have known you should have. Plus the total amount they work out that you owe of course.