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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Help gross misconduct accidental theft:(


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Ahh where do I start its not me its hubby.

 

Hes lived in work recently done 60-70hours a week,

wage budgets been cut, hes been busy and under lot pressure.

 

month ago he had rather embaressing incident in work.

 

his trousers split when he was in his office.

 

He works for retailer so asked member of staff to fetch something in his size as he couldent leave the office.

 

His company provides tops but employees expected to purchse their own bottoms.

 

he fully intended to pay for the bottoms but got caught up in day and forgot.

If he had been reminded he would have paid intention was not there.

 

hes amazing employment record no history.

 

hes in high ranking position area responsability.

hes senior manger who up until this week was golden boy.

 

Hes turned store around hes was brought into trouble shoot so he has ****ed off few staff I dare say.

 

Someones reported hi as he had 2ays off and area manager was there.

 

They then had chat in office in private between them.

 

where he was quizzed.

 

he admitted he took trousers and intended to pay but dident he was very sorry would pay for them there and then,

 

The manager then said they had cctv footage of him wearing the trousers.

 

They been through his purchase history and can find no record of payment they said that after he admitted he tecnnically did steal but there was no intent to steal

 

But basically he has acidentally stolen the work trousers.

 

hes been given letter hes suspended on full pay pending further investigation,

But seems to me like that they done all investigation.

 

ie member of staff who reported it

cct footage

head ofice checking his purchases

interveiw between him and area manager

next guess would be he intereviw other staff in store ad get wtness statemnets

 

what other investigaton can there be?

 

his line manager said don;t do anything too hasty/stupid it may go disiplinary or maybe be come back to work.

 

But hes not disputing he took them hes disputing the intent.

 

hes convinced will go disiplinary gross misconduct theft

 

he reckons be end next week-hubby that is.

 

as they have to write to him then give him 48hours notice.

 

payday next week so he reckons they do it by then as he reckons it wont drag on.

 

hes shown remorse over genuine mistake which now ruin his career.

 

he had phone confiscated told collect few things, contact no staff and escorted off premises.

 

he came back so upset said what you doing home early.

he showed me letter.

 

hes in bits

 

its the not knowing.

 

hes been with company year half so less 2years so think they can just fire him without appeal.

 

the appeak wll go to hr and another area manager who doesnt know him.

hes conviced he get fired.

 

ok questions are

 

what mitigataing circumstances can he make will it make a diffrence..

 

in his old company something siilar happened with another manger he knew and he claimed stress and got final written not sack.

 

is he better off quitting tahn being sacked?

dont think he can claim jsa if quit.

 

its the not knowing we cant claim any benefits as hes still employed.

 

hes updated cv applied for some jobs but could take months

also looked into agency work

 

hes worried sick really worried about him.

 

any advice greatfully received,

 

even if by some miracle he stays he then has bit longer to look as cant see how he stay in comony now as their be breech trust and damage to his reputation.

 

feel so upset and sick myself.

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hon, the advice is just to sit tight. Don't claim an illness he doesn't have; do apologise for genuine oversight.

 

He is doing all the right things; keep your powder dry and just keep reassuring him! DO remind him suspension during investigation is normal and neutral and there is no reason he cannot go back to work afterwards. He did make a mistake so he's going to have to suffer a bit but this does not look huge to me! So don't let him blow his job by being hasty and daft now!

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Thank you we expecting the worst.

 

hes just thinking most straghtfoward thing

 

he did techically steal.

 

hes admitted it

 

time lines and fact week until next pay month.

 

his boss on holiday the one who interveiwd him.

they get on really well.

 

hes was best mangers in entre company other week.

even people in headoffice rate him

 

hes worked hard

hes good at his job

even improved stockloss results ironically

improved sales

customer service.

 

hes been quite upfront and sorry.

 

if it goes to hearing he said he will fight his cause.

 

he has worked excessive hours, he has been under pressure and think thats whatb led to him being so daft its out character behaviour.

 

but if he gets sacked for theft hes worried how that be getting another job.

 

but if he loses his job we temporarily need the jsa we not in great position financially and we just about keeping up our commitments.

 

did entotled to calculator benefits generous but we worse off.

 

it seripusly going to impact on kids.

 

we orivate rent so majority rent be covered.

 

plus benefoits can take weeks to sort.

 

hes so sad and stresse.

 

i cat say or do anything make him feel better

im amzed common sense dident prevail and got stopped before reached this official point,

 

hes unsure its gone this far ie suspension that they will show any leniancy.

 

3am this moriing or yesterday now he got alarm callout.

he explained to call centre he had no keys an could not intend.

itw as double alarm seprate location so police were on their way

chances were theirs intruder not false alarm however hes had few late night callours recently.

he then rang his dep dident iscuss his situation just said alarm callout looks sesrious members of store need to attend.

so not sure if he get in trouble over that,

 

hes not eating /slleeping.

 

hes feeling so ashmed and we now avoiding family freinds and thinking we could liie and say redundancy.

 

we have no idea hwo long will take

 

hes just summising.

 

i reminded him what happened in his old company but thats not reasured him.

 

 

also will be tricky to go back

 

its slim pickings in same positions and salary bands as hes in now.

but if he somehow stays there wont be any career progression or pay reveiw that was due before xmas,

 

so hes worked his arse off this year barly seeing his family for nothing.

 

im so upset.trying to be supportive and holding it togetherl

 

keep think i should of asked him how much they were.

 

I hope whiich ever nasty vidictive member of staff is happy destroyinghis career and having severe repurcussions for our famly.

 

hes got some agency work next week which is extra money as still being paid by employer to give us bit of buffer.

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If the employer finds he is working for someone else while on paid suspension that is an IMMEDIATE SACKING unless he has permission

 

You need to CALM DOWN

 

Everything in your had is a catastrophe right now!

 

Ok, if I were the boss I would

- review the hours hubs had been working

- look at the track record

- decide no one would lose their job over a pair of trousers

- give him a written warning

 

1 in 10 adult males in the UK has a criminal conviction I believe; most of them are in work.

 

Stop getting your knickers in a twist. No one is going to die over a pair of breeks.

 

This could go on for weeks; you need to stop being a mad woman and start getting your act together. Hubs does nt need you falling apart on him. Things he needs to hear

 

- no one would believe you are a thief

- your boss appreciates all you do for them

- they HAVE to investigate, this is all normal

- I am sure you will be back to work soon

- why don't you give the hallway a lick of paint while you have the time off?

 

He needs to be calm and believe in himself. And that has to start with you.

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Hi thanks for reply

 

I have been calm, not shouted or cried since found out.

 

Im trying to be positive.

 

said all things you suggested even down to giving downstairs a paint .

 

we dong carboot tommorow.

 

I tried saying you probably get warning

but hes saying all hes done counts for nothing that hes 99%sure he get sack.

 

he says time for his boss to ask those questions would have been prior supsension.

 

they say they doing more investigation but like I say not sure how much seems perrty clear and they did alot before speaking to him think profit protection been involved.

 

He seems to think meeting with managers who dont know him will just look at cold hard facts.

and also though he gets on well with area manager he wont save him as could be career damaging to his career.

 

Hes been there year half so not seen how many disipliarys turn out in company if they harsh or leniant,

 

hes been told hes not allowed to speak to any employees.

 

Hes got some sporadic agency work keep himself busy as he hates being at home.

thourght lots people do agency around main jobs its not like he has 2main jobs.

its just we trying to damage limitate our finances as we really vunerable of thiis months pay packets our last.

 

I really have been calm and mrs pollyanna.

 

but nothing i say improves his mood.

 

hes least had some sleep last night.

 

hes gone out to do reccy hes got job monday moving furniture.

 

its a one off.

 

agency reckon they could have lots work all min wage.

they were impressed he spoke english, had right to work and passed english maths test 100%

They never said he couldent work for anyone

agency said they wont contact his employers they dont know hes supsended he just postioned it as hes on couple weeks holiday and waqnted bit extra cash.

 

Its the not knowing how long hes off for.

 

he keeps saying next week as he reckons they would want to do asap as full pay and hes quite a high pay band.

 

but reading on here could be weeks

 

its the not knowing.

 

his boss gave pep talk don't do anything hasty i said that's positive he said ahh hes just being nice.

 

hes paranoid everyoes talking about him and thjnks hes a theif.

 

he said whole expereince of being escorted off then driving home having to tell us

 

he feels so foolish. his jo involves stock ordering, cash handling and managing a team.

 

How do I get him feel bit happier again? hes like sad puppy.

 

my sadness and panic is well hidden im tryng to be practical.

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Hi

 

Make sure your husband gets a statement from the person who he got the trousers from and make sure it's clear in the statement he said he would pay. Point out very clearly he has now paid (or offered to pay) and it was a genuine mistake. Take the trousers with the hole in as evidence to back up his story.

 

I think dismissal would be a tad harsh here, but he needs to make his case absolutely clear to the company. Make sure he takes a companion to the hearing to make a full note of everything that is said as well.

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Husbands not allowed to speak to anyone.

 

Most obvious person who springs to min who reported it would be the girl who fetched trousers to him.

 

asked him who knew who was in that day he cant remember

 

he offered to pay£8 for trousers the other day.

 

Hes not made excuses or lied hes been totally honest.

 

I thik hours and stress hes been under is contributing factor though.

 

not sure if he binned old trousers probably so cant produce those.

 

bit worried about agency work its very casual so hes still at employers beck and call.

 

then mentioned nothing about not working anyone else and hes not got handbook as in work an dont think it be online as they not that hig tech a company.

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just keep telling him until it sinks in - it'll take time

 

do you have any questions we can help with? everything seems to be normal to me atm process wise.

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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A few things happened today.

 

he got phonecall from one of his supervisors who hes know for years as used to work with him

 

Kids were messng about daddys mobile and rang him so he rang back.

 

He dident say much what he did say made hubby feel bit better

 

things like

 

only management team know

none of them think you a theief

store team dont know they think he has personal problems and are worried as they miss hi and consider him a good manager so thats small boost I guess.

 

Dont know any details of investigation other than area manager spoke to collegue who got him the trousers.

 

Afetr the phonecall I asked him few more questions that dident want to ask him before more detail.

 

He admitted he took the trousers that day and left without paying complete oversight.

He then early next day when putting out tills as he was on open checked the price oif the trousers wth staff iscount as satff discounts odd its diffrent for every item as %of cost not retail price. whch he did found out price about £8 and intended to pay for them later as his wallet was in office as not allowe dto carry wallet or pesonal mobile on shop floor.

 

So area manager was like you had 2opportunities to pay and ddent.

 

Initially thourght damm this is even worse.

But then said if intent was to steal he wouldent have looked up price would he?

hes not sure if thers some sort of flag programme when he checked price.

 

I think this unlikly though as he and his staff check prices stuff a lot before deciding to purchase as like i say its not a siimple 10/20%off retail prce they need to log onto system to find out.

 

So I think someone must have reported it.

 

haevent heard from anyone else at company.

 

hes kept busy today taken daughter to party, done food shop,

laid some carpet done some cleaning

 

we getting everything ready for carboot sale tommorow as need declutter, and we will need the funds if hes loses his job plus take his mind off thngs.

 

I still think hes sad and stressed and all he thinks about.

 

Its the not knowing outcome and when and hes very stressed for family unit financally

Im stresed about finaces but more his career as his job means world to him hes bit workaholic.

 

He could do unskilled mn wage jobs hes not too proud an would look for other retail manager jobs its just takes time, we have no savings to fall back on.

 

hes unsure if he get tax rebate maybe.

 

Its the reason for suspension theft its questions his honesty and integrity so can see why hes devestated and feeling foolish.

If had been breaking polcies would have felt much diffrent still stressful.

 

I know we just have to sit tight and stay calm.

 

He thnks wll be next week as i thiurght dioubt they like paying people for long plus the stores shortstaffed but read others and could go on for weeks

hes told his mum hes on weeks holiday.

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One thing to advise ( as emm already said), make sure your husband does not do agency work or other work in the meantime.

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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Just adding that if your husband started his employment before 6th april 2012, he only needs 1 year of service to get full employment rights. You mention in your opening post that he has been there for a year and a half.

CAG has helped me so much since I joined. Based on what I have learnt from others on here and my own experiences, I try to chip in and help others from time to time. I am not an expert and give my opinion only. Always check with the more experienced CAG members before making important decisions.

:-)

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Huge thanks

 

he started 1st aprril 2013 so before 6th so has on om year

 

full employment rights

 

but unusre how this would help him

 

theft is gross misconduct could lead to disissal.

 

techically hes commiteed theft but inteon to steal was not there,

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Personally i think you are worrying too much. There is such a thing as extenuating circumstances.

 

Read back on it. Your husband split his trousers at work. He could not leave the office, so asked someone to grab him a pair of trousers from the shop floor. He put them on and fully intended to pay. Due to an oversight/distraction, he failed to do that.

 

That isnt theft. Any disciplinary investigation would show that. Theft needs intent.

 

This suspension he is under for Gross Misconduct is routine. They have to treat everyone fairly so an investigation needs to be performed.1

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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It means they have to follow a proper process. It seems they are doing this. But do check back as and when things happen to make sure.

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Although probably not your greatest concern at the moment.

 

He should be able to do another job, as long as it is not in the hours he would normally work if not suspended.

 

Unless the company does not allow any outside employment or they are required to give their permission, check contract and notice of suspension.

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Although probably not your greatest concern at the moment.

 

He should be able to do another job, as long as it is not in the hours he would normally work if not suspended.

 

Unless the company does not allow any outside employment or they are required to give their permission, check contract and notice of suspension.

 

 

Ok me again bit update not sure if good thing.

 

disiplinary letter came through today

 

its for tuesaday next week miles away from where we live.

 

Its not used the work theft.

 

hubbys bt clingy to letter so need to check wording.

 

but says to obtsan company goods by deception-this is act of gross misconduct and may lead to dismissal.

 

is thsi a different offence to theft?

 

he had 2opportunities to pay for trousers.

 

the day/evening the event happened

The next day when he looks up discount price-although surly checking price meant their was intent to pay not steal or would it make it seem worse.

 

What happens now

 

what should he use in defence

 

stress /log hours-which is true

hes very sorry.

 

I cant belive its come to this .

 

In a way good to have a date as been bit limbo.

 

he was bit brighter yesterday but today hes been grumpy.

 

we taking kid spark this afternoon take his mind off things.

 

planned things to do every day until monday as we ebetter of doing stuff than moping round house.

 

hes been doing random jobs round house, cleaning, phoneing people saving money on bills e reduced energy all useful things.

 

pay day is friday so will do very good foodshop then in case he gets sack.

 

thankyou everyone for advice and support,

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Ok I have read the letter

 

says allegation of taking company property by deception.

 

That they have evidence and witness atatements which will be brought to disiplinary.

 

But also not sure this in his favour.

 

A itemised list with dates and value /description of all his purchases, using his staff discount.

 

There is stuff on this list that husband has not pucrchases and has no knowldege of.

 

walking sticks

caravan stuff-we dont own a caravan.

 

Asked hubby how this could happen.

 

most retailers have iscount cards which keep on their person,

 

Theires strct copany rules on staff discount whch hes not broken,

 

Apparently on till system everyone has discout codes.

 

it appears that someones used his code maybe deliberate , maybe by mistake,

 

In his store so one of his staff hass done this.

 

so investigation needs to be made.

 

questiin is shoud he ring profit protection now an report ahead of disiplinary or bring it up at disiplimary.

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Sorry had to cut last post short.

 

They enclosed staff discount history as evidence i guess as the flipping trousers were not in it.

 

but hes never denied fact he took the trousers.

 

when questioned he admitted he did but was mistake

 

so not simple case of him saying prove it.

 

however his staff discount purchase is inaccurate.

 

Ant staff discount abuse in his store also be his fault as hes the manager.

 

so even if he reports it could be yet another thng that goes against him.

 

I told him he has no option he has to report it.

 

so should he report it today or at disiplinary?

 

wondered if someone in store has it in for him?

as these mystery purchases plus reckon he was reported by someone in store.

 

Also maybe bit irrelevent.

 

whoever emailed profit protection for them to email his purchase history.

 

profit protection replied to this person and copied and pasted his history onto the email.

 

so top half of this printed/photocopied letter was personal banter between the 2work collegues saying something like I will get killed if i get this wrong, wheres a good place to stay.

 

hardly professional behaviour,

 

which makes me worry about professionalism of the investigation, procedures and disiplinary next week

 

I think you have to register caravan with dvla so they could do simple check we dont own a caravan.

 

any advice greatfully received.

 

can he ask who reported him?

 

applogies for error in spellings typing too fast.

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This is very strange.

 

Before the discipline hearing, they should have a meeting to get your(his) side of story, so this is probably what this is.

 

If it's the actual hearing, then they should give you copies of all evidence, witness statements etc. that they will be relying on.

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Read this again and still don't understand.

 

What rules has he broken, buying too much stuff? or not paying for it?

 

1)trousers split he replaced then with trousers off shop floor. company provides uniform just tops employees expected to wear and pay for their own bottoms they not provided.

 

2)he intended to pay for trousers that day but got involved with customesr and close down and forgot.

 

3)the next day when putting out tills in morning pre open he check staff iscount price so he knew how much he had to pay, he ident have his wallet on him s they not allowed cash/cards on shop floor.

 

4)That day again got so involved in his job he forgot but always intended to pay not steal.

 

5)month later he goes into work area manager pulls him to one side and says nee talk in office.

 

As soon as area manager started to say it he said **** Im so sorry I completly forgot I always intended to pay for it was huge mistake I can pay for it today.

 

Area manager says too late it has to go further.

 

He said he had taken statements-dident say from whom

and profot and loss had history of his staff purchase history during his time employed with them he dident show him that but hubby knew what he had brought and paid for and not a great deal really so never thourght to ask but they said thats eveidence as trousers not on their but he owned up and apologised straght away no denying , trying to wriggle his way out of it hes been very honest and he pointed out why would he look up staff discount price if he had no intention on paying.

 

I think tehy will find it hard to prove intent. Theft his whjen he intended to deprice the company of their property.

 

He then got suspension letter sayng they needed to do further investigation.

 

hes not allowed talk to any employees.

 

he was escorted off premises.

 

This was thur its now best part week nearly later and got the letter.

 

The meeting is least 2hour drive plus petrol money as up north and we down south.

 

Syss he allowed to bring someone but confuse as they said hes not allowed talk to anyone.

 

Thre was another manager he was freindly with but hes not been in contact and as he ssays no one would want to be associated with him due to nature of accusation so hes going alone, hes not a member of a union.

 

Its this specic

 

allegations of deception-googled its sounds more like case of fraud than straghtforward crime of theft.

 

will this be hard one for company to prove?

 

hes admitted straight away, apologised , offered to pay for it.

 

He looked up price with intent to pasy as it was one of his staff who pcked the trousers in his size and took to office he had no idea of the price and the what discount he would get as most retailers have 10"0%off retail price, retailers I worked for also offered 75%off uniform items in past arcadia, rive island and next gae greater discount on uniform items as at end of day you advertising their products.

 

Ironically since hubby started he always worn smart suit trousers/business dress and the area mananger teased him and hsaid he needed to be more casual and suggeste he brought more company products and looked more casual.

 

But he only got these that day as was emergency he trousers had split.

 

The discount with his current company is cost price+20%so he would have to look on system to find out as every item has diffrent %discount off depending on profit margins and how cheap they brought it in at.

 

So he dident know the full price or the discounted price when he put them on.

 

next day he found this out but still forgot to pay so missed 2opportunities where he could have paid for these flippng 8quid pair of trousers.

 

Hes not abused staff discount policy as hes not actually paid for them.

 

Although it appears someone has been abusing his staff discount card within his store one of is employess as lots of his purchase history is stuff hes not brought.

 

Hes not falsified any records or lied hes been open , and honest.

 

So how does he defend himself in displinary and argue the allegation is false?or inaccurate.

 

I ssid i dont think he get sacked for this specifc allegation.

 

he says maybe they sack him for breach of compancy policy somehow.

 

I said if thats the case and they try dismiss him for something other than deception,

 

ie staff discount policy of failure to ensure his employess were not abusing staff discount on his watch then that would have to be seprate disiplinary again.

 

As the letter specifically says deception to take company product

 

Im wondering why the company pursuing this so agressivly.

what other evidence they have apart from

 

witness statement of emplyee who fetched him trousers where he said he would pay for them later.

 

cctv footage of him wearing and leaving the store in the alleged trousers.

hes never denied takking them and not paying for them.

 

staff discount hisprty with trousers missing and other random items hes not purchased on there.

 

intereveiw with his area manager wheres hes been open and hosnest admitted to taking trousers, reasons why he failed to pay for them.

 

what other evidence can there be for trouser theif crime of century?

 

should he ring profit protection and report the inaccuracies ahaead of the disiplnary.

 

Then theirs the handbook, he cant access it online and he was never given a copy when joined theres one in store but hes not allowed in store or contact anyone in store.

 

His contract sauys he agrees and should familirise himself of every rule in handbook but in relaity company handbooks are weighty and I doubt he can remember it all and wouldent have looked to closly at this area as he never imgained after all thse years with siccessful history in retail of being suspended for this crime.

 

 

So he has no handbook

no 1 going with him

disipliary mles away

 

hes not allowed near any store shops or speak to any employees.

 

what next?

 

what should he do about the inaccurate purchase history

 

plus the casual unprofessional banter at the top of the letter.

 

would he be better of mentioning it next week then disiplinary be adjourned and arranged for later date?

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Yes I understand the trouser part, so not guilty of theft and explain.

 

I don't understand the other part about the caravan stuff, has this not been paid for?

 

 

Part of their evidence is a list itemised items

 

he had purchased with staff discount card during his time with them.

 

resumably to prove hes not paid for trousers as they dont appear on there but he already said they wouldent as he admitted when initailly question I forgot to pay.

 

Looking down at past purchases there are 5 on the list including caravan stuff that hes not knowing purchased or paid for.

 

He mostly pays for stuff with bank card so he can ask his bank to check dates againt their purchase dates .

 

It was obvous stuff liek caravan stuff and walking sticks.

 

They may have been purchased just not by us but appears whoever purchased them used his discount card to get staff discount whih is very worrying.

 

the purchase list is innacurate which is rrelevent to the trousres as he alreadyt admitted taking them accidentally and dident deny it.

 

it was after he told area manager they then said we know you dident pay for them as we looked at history of purchases .

 

but he admitted before he said and known they even looked at his purchses and tehy dident show him list their and then the list arrived today with his disiplinary letter.

as i looked at it and was like what are these he says he had no idea hes never purchased them and its mostly likly someone in his stiore has used his code,

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I see now, so only allegation is the trousers.

 

Got to go with it, just explain as you have to us, nothing else you can do.

 

As for the other stuff, if it's all paid for, then what's the problem, just ask for password or code to be changed.

 

Mention it at the hearing, thats not the main problem, so don't spend so much effort on it.

 

At the hearing you need to apologise and tell your version of events and mention your good service in the past.

 

Hopefully the manager dealing with the case will be sensible, there is no way out, just explain.

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