What is most likely to happen in this situation?

[Yasmin25]

Hi me and my partner both claim Jobseekers over the summer while we are in between college courses. Recently the DWP have discovered my boyfriend's ISA that he failed to declare.They are investigating his ISA back to 2009 when he first claimed JSA as a single claimant and will also find that he had stocks and shares meaning his overall capital came to £17,000 (£16,000 is the cut off entitlement for JSA).He only had £17,000 in his bank account for a few days as he bought a new laptop, driving lessons and paid off lawyer fees off it, so he went back down to £15,000. He was on JSA for around 2 yrs.

 

He failed to inform the DWP that he received this money from his mum's death that was put into his ISA and also failed to inform them about the ISA when he applied as a joint claim with me this year and last year. I am the main claimant this year and I knew nothing about his ISA until now when the DWP asked me in to discuss it. We apply for this benefit every year for about 3 months while we wait for college to start back up.

 

He has £5,000 roughly left and is willing to pay off any overpayments to avoid going to court. He told me he didn't know he had to declare it because the first time he did ever apply for JSA, it was all above board and he never had the money at that point. He was 18 then and his dad told him it would be fine not to mention it.

 

 

I am in no doubt that his stocks and shares will show up now he has gave the DWP permission to get his ISA account.

 

And I'm assuming he'll be asked to go to an interview under caution, as will I probably since I am the main claimant.

 

If it did go to court, would it be likely he went to prison? He has been in trouble before. He was charged with GBH a few years ago against his dad but was let off with probation and community service after the judge agreed his dad provoked him. He also got let off of probation 6 months early due to good behaviour.

 

He's now a student at college and progressing well there.

 

He fully admits that though he never realised it and wasn't intentional, he probably has comitted fraud and wants to repay whatever he owes. He can pay £5000 instantly from his ISA and if it comes to any more, he would be willing to pay it up weekly or monthly.

 

 

 

We live in Scotland and we are both students.

 

I am worried sick. All I can think is either we are both gonna go to jail or he is.

[rebel11]

Hi Yasmin

 

Welcome to CAG

 

I very much doubt that he or youself would go to prison. They will want any overpayment back with penalties and interest. I would seek advice from a solicitor or CAB as they deal with these type of matters everyday. It's important to get any mitigating factors highlighted at an early stage. Try not to worry as that will not achieve anything. Try to work out any over payment, thats a good starting point.

Edited August 14, 2013 by rebel11

[Yasmin25]

Hi Yasmin

 

Welcome to CAG

 

I very much doubt that he or youself would go to prison. They will want any overpayment back with penalties and interest. I would seek advice from a solicitor or CAB as they deal with these type of matters everyday. It's important to get any mitigating factors highlighted at an early stage. Try not to worry as that will not achieve anything. Try to work out any over payment, thats a good starting point.

 

Thanks for your reply. You have calmed my nerves a bit! Still worried about prison though! Though from what I have read online, most people don't get sebt to jail unless its £50k+ they owe. We are nowhere near that region.

[rebel11]

Hi yasmin

 

So it's the,

 

'He only had £17,000 in his bank account for a few days as he bought a new laptop, driving lessons and paid off lawyer fees off it, so he went back down to £15,000. He was on JSA for around 2 yrs.'

 

he failed to declare.

 

Speak a bit of advice from a solicitor/ cab it won't cost you anything.

[Yasmin25]

Thanks for the advice. We'll call them tomorrow.

[rebel11]

Let us know how you get on.

[Yasmin25]

I will. Hopefully they can put our minds at rest. I can't stop thinking the worst.

[rebel11]

Well stop it, thats an order, deal with it tomorrow.

 

I will. Hopefully they can put our minds at rest. I can't stop thinking the worst.

[Yasmin25]

Easier said than done but I'll try lol.

 

What worries me is he'll get into serious bother for not telling them about his ISA and I'll get into serious bother for not knowing about his ISA when I filled out the application form. None of us set out to commit a crime. We're both pretty clueless when it comes to benefits tbh.

[citizenkain]

I thought any money you have above £6000 affected your benefits? Im sure someone was saying on here his benefits were reduced when he got to that point

[citizenkain]

well,if your just on jsa it probably wont affect it if your under £16000,dont worry about going to prison,at his age and inexperience they will just look for the overpayment back and at worse an admin charge

[Yasmin25]

Thanks for your reply. I hope you are right about neither of us going to jail. Its all I can think about!

 

Also thanks to everyone else for taking the time to read and reply

[Yasmin25]

Hi everyone. If anyone has any more advice and contributions to this thread, I would be very much grateful

 

I am still very worried that we are both going to get charged and sent to court for this as he never declared his ISA and I never declared his ISA when filling out the form this year (even though I didn't know about it and it was under £6000 then)

 

I know its silly not to worry until you have an actual reason to worry but all I can think about is he owes so much and he'll be taken to court and put away for a few months, especially cause he has been in trouble before even though it wasn't fraud related. I'm always worried I might be sentenced.

 

I've read that it can take months to hear bout an IUC and then to hear how much the overpayment is and then to see if you are going to go to court or not. I don't know how anyone can live with that hanging over their head for so long, whether they were knowingly committing fraud or not!

 

Does anyone know how to roughly calculate an overpayment or have a rough estimate based on the info I have provided?

 

Will it be likely I will be asked to attend an IUC or just him since it was his ISA and he was the main claimant over the summer last year?

 

I'm sorry to rant on about nerves and everything but I suffer from anxiety and depression and I'm also stressed about starting uni in a few weeks so I feel quite overwhelmed.

 

Thanks everyone

[citizenkain]

lose the idea of going to jail,thats not really going to happen,the DWP can run capital scans of all your bank accounts/premium bonds etc,they usually look for any overpayment back and sometimes an admin penalty of 30% between the two of yous if you were only getting jsa,worse case scenario they would look for all they have paid yous back and a 30% penalty,that cant be very much cos they cant have paid you very much!

[Yasmin25]

He received Housing Benefit for about 6 months when he made his single claim a few years back once his dad kicked him out and probably council tax reduction too and when we applied for JSA as a joint couple last year for the few months of the summer holiday as well as this year, we received housing benefit and council tax reduction. Would that still come into? He was the main claimant last year and I am the main claimant for JSA this year, I think he is still the main claimant for HB and CT. His savings are under £6,000 if that goes for anything on this years applications.

[Yasmin25]

Sorry forgot to add, he received HB and CT both when he was under the £16,000 limit for benefits so would he have to pay back an overpayment for them or was he fully entitled to the full payment of both? I don't know if what you are entitled to with HB and CT is reduced if you have high savings (still under £16000 though of course) like JSA? Sorry if that sounds like a silly question. I don't really know how a lot of these benefits work. As you can guess, he never declared them even though they were under the limit at that point.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Yasmin25

[antone]

Working out overpayments is complex, unfortunately, and I don't really know how the councils work out HB/CTR entitlement. In any given week where a person is entitled to any amount (even just 1p) of income based JSA, they would normally also be entitled to full HB at the appropriate rate for their area and circumstances. This is known as "passporting".

 

Now, to work out a JSA overpayment, you would start a bit like this:

 

When working out the value of any capital, consider whether a "cost of sale" applies. This will be the case for anything where he'd have to pay fees and charges to complete a sale - such as estate agents fees for property, and also stocks and shares where he'd need to pay a stockbroker to sell them. If cost of sale applies, it is a blanket 10% regardless of what the actual cost is. So as an example, if he had shares worth £5000, the DWP would count that as £4500 since it would cost him £500 to sell them. Money in bank accounts and ISAs would not normally have a cost of sale and would be counted in full.

 

First off, work out the savings for each week. In any week where the savings exceed £15,999.99 then there is no entitlement to JSA(IB), so for that week, the full amount of JSA paid will count as overpaid. For any week where the savings were £5999.99 or less, there will be no overpayment.

 

For amounts in between, the overpayment will be £1 per week for each £250 (or part thereof) from £6000 or above. So, if in one week he had £10,100, the overpayment would be £17, if he had £9100, it would be £13.

[Yasmin25]

Thanks, your post made a lot of sense. If I have calculated correctly which tbh, I most probably haven't as it is quite complicated as you say, he owes over £2000. I counted it out to just over £3000 and that isn't including the JSA from the joint applications from this year and last.

 

I don't know if HB/CT will require an overpayment. Just have to wait and see

[Yasmin25]

My partner is planning to go to our local CAB office (do you usually have to make an appointment btw or is it walk in served?) And see about free law centres/legal aid lawyers.

 

He wants this sorted out as soon as possible. He admits that he never realised he was actually committing fraud and never intended to because its not worth it as he is still poor, we're not living the high life in the slightest and as I said earlier, he's been in trouble before even though unrelated to fraud, he can't afford to get into trouble and doesn't want to be seen as a criminal for something he didn't intend to do but is willing to accept his actions turned out to be fraud whether he meant it or not. He hopes to avoid jail and court but knows court probably won't be optional.

 

I admire him for wanting to get everything straightened out and start up payment plans. Though I'm worried that this is a bad idea because he hasn't even had his IUC yet though ne receiving an appt with customer compliance and the mentioning of an ISA made him realise in fact he had been in the wrong and needs to deal with it.

 

Is this a good idea or not? Or should he wait until he hears anything back from the DWP/LA fraud squad?

 

I'm in two minds. I see how it would help, kinda see why it wouldn't.

[antone]

Each CAB office is different, but in my experience most will provide walk-in service. Best to be early, though - their funding has been cut and they can't help as many people as they would want to.

 

As to what he should do, well, if he can afford legal advice this would be wise. But taking wild guesses (I stress that these are guesses, I am not a lawyer), I would say that he's not likely to go to jail over this, and it is in his best interests to talk to the DWP as soon as possible. Should it come to a court situation, it would surely count in his favour if he was the one who raised the issue, rather than waiting for them to find out some other way. Certainly, if he speaks to Compliance he must be honest with them. If he's not, that will make it look like fraud. It's one thing to say "I didn't declare the ISA because I didn't know I had to" - that's not good, but could well be seen as an honest mistake; quite another if he doesn't draw their attention to money that he had when specifically asked.

[rebel11]

Hi Yasmin

 

It's best to be prepared, have the facts, if they start throwing around figures that aren't correct, you can tell them, because you have done your homework, it's about mitigating the genuine aspects of your claim. It's an opportunity to sort the matter out. Lots of solicitors provide free advice. There are also law centres who can provide free advice.

 

 

My partner is planning to go to our local CAB office (do you usually have to make an appointment btw or is it walk in served?) And see about free law centres/legal aid lawyers.

 

He wants this sorted out as soon as possible. He admits that he never realised he was actually committing fraud and never intended to because its not worth it as he is still poor, we're not living the high life in the slightest and as I said earlier, he's been in trouble before even though unrelated to fraud, he can't afford to get into trouble and doesn't want to be seen as a criminal for something he didn't intend to do but is willing to accept his actions turned out to be fraud whether he meant it or not. He hopes to avoid jail and court but knows court probably won't be optional.

 

I admire him for wanting to get everything straightened out and start up payment plans. Though I'm worried that this is a bad idea because he hasn't even had his IUC yet though ne receiving an appt with customer compliance and the mentioning of an ISA made him realise in fact he had been in the wrong and needs to deal with it.

 

Is this a good idea or not? Or should he wait until he hears anything back from the DWP/LA fraud squad?

 

I'm in two minds. I see how it would help, kinda see why it wouldn't.

[Yasmin25]

Do you think it would be best if he made an appointment at our local authority and job centre before he gets an IUC (which could take months) and explain himself?

 

He hates sitting here waiting for that letter. He wants to set his record straight and prove he wasn't out to rob them and we haven't been living a lavish lifestyle thanks to whatever extra benefits we got. Though he is scared that if he does make an early appointment, he'll be seen as dodgy and it wont go in his favour.

 

He also spoke to his dad, who is a well sought after business man in our town, and his dad agreed that he told his son that he didn't think the amount of money he got when his mum died was enough to affect his benefits because he thought savings were taxed (or something like that, can't remember exactly what he said) and that he would either go to the IUC with him or write a letter explaining that he did tell his son all of this and he didn't realise this was benefit fraud. I don't know if that would do any good but its nice his dad is showing support.

 

The waiting is the worst. We both just want to get this sorted, pay whatever we have to and not have the thought of court, jail etc looming over us. We are students and the stress will no doubt take its toll on our studies.

[Mr.P]

Sit down together with all your bank statements and dividend notes going back to 2009 when your partner first claimed JSA. Create a spreadsheet with a column for each bank account, ISA, and share scheme. Calculate deposits/income and total outgoings for each month. Where transfers from one account to another took place, have a separate column and add a comment, also add comments for any large deposits and withdrawals (for example -£500 for replacement laptop).

With stocks and shares, things get a little complicated and you'll need to do some additional research on historical valuations. http://uk.finance.yahoo.com should have data for most shares, but the figures will be the mid-"buy" price, not the "sell" price which is always lower - As antone mentioned in post #17, allow 10% for trading fees (I'd set a minimum of £20 which is what my local stockbroker would charge).

What you are aiming for is a total figure for savings for each month over the last five years to within a few pounds.

 

Once you have a full picture of income/expenditure, create another couple of columns and list all JSA/HB/CT payments - With this in place, you should be able to identify when you and your partner may have been in receipt of an overpayment. The exact figure for any overpayments will be linked to savings £6,000 and £16,000 so would be variable.

You alluded to a figure of £2-3,000 in overpayments - It could work out less than that once you have been through all the financial records. If you are still worried go and see an adviser at CAB with the spreadsheet in hand (they will be better placed to calculate overpayments and offer advice on how to proceed better than I can).

 

It is highly unlikely that either of you would go to court over such a small amount.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Mr.P

[Yasmin25]

Thanks. We will do that. I have no idea what the overpayment will come out to. My boyfriend is going to ask someone at CAB when he visits to see if they can come up with a rough estimate.

 

Though I doubt it would come to between £2,000-3,000. It definetly would during the three months we were on JSA, HB, CT last year as a couple but its the nearly two years worth of JSA and about 6 months of HB and CT he got on a single claim that worries me. He got the ISA about 2 or 3 months after his claim started and his dad set it up and dealt with the lawyers etc for him since he was 18 at the time.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Yasmin25

[Yasmin25]

Update

 

My boyfriend contacted out local CAB and they were unhelpful to say the least. They told him whether it was intentional or not, he will most likely be prosecuted for benefit fraud and ignorance goes for nothing and in a nutshell basically said say yeah ok I did mean to commit fraud but I hold my hands up and I am sorry.

 

If it was intentional, then yeah, I agree that is the best option but it wasn't. We haven't benefited from any overpayment he got. We are in debt and not over fancy things, over things like paying off our cooker and freezer, we live in a run down undecorated flat.

 

He is going to contact another CAB office near us and see what they say and also see about legal aid or law centres. The only free law centre we found was one that was 30 miles away from us and only deals with people from their local area.