Another Vodafone default - Now in deadlock - ***Defaults removed***

[salphy]

CitizenB thats what we are saying. We haven't received any letters. Which is why i have emailed both companies asking for copies of the letters so i can see where and when they were sent etc. But both companies have said they don't keep copies of letters sent, just a date on a file of when a letter was sent. And i have to pay Vodafone £10 for a copy of these dates, which are not really any use to me. When my partner paid off the bill before going away, he told them he was going away. But they have not recorded this and as we didn't put it in writing we can't prove it.

 

2Grumpy, i have told Arrow that the only reason we were informed of and paid the bill was when buying our car, we had to clear the bill and provide proof to the finance company that it was paid to not lose our £3000 deposit. But they are suggesting it was evidence of us receiving their NoA in Decemeber 2011. (my partner returned from Afghan in November 2011, if we had received that letter why would we think oh it's fine we've not been able to spend much for the last 7 months you've been away and saved quite a bit, lets wait another 4 months to pay this bill we didn't know we had. It doesn't make sense!)

[salphy]

Sorry Brigadier2jcs that's my fault it's just the way it pasted it actually says "current balance: Satisfied" "default date: 01/01/2011"

So is the default date the date the debt was sold? Or the date Vodafone defaulted it? Or the date Arrow Global defaulted it? Or was it defaulted the day it was sold? I'm so confused!

If this is the date it was sold, they claim they sent the NoA on 23/12/2011, nearly 12 months after?

[citizenB]

The account would have been defaulted around 2 - 3 months after the first payment was missed. You should have received requests for payments around that time.

 

The default would have been added to the credit file pretty much around that time so if you count back 3 months from the date of the Vodafone default date, should be around the time that they are claiming that you didn't pay.

 

I would want to know .. when the account was started - That way you might have some idea if you or your partner did take enter into this agreement. Were any payments made at all to the account. (You could then look at bank statements / card statements to see if these correspond). You already know when it was defaulted.

 

IMHO, I think the above information would be available to you via a Subject Access Request. I am not sure how else we can help you.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I totally agree with Citizen B here!

 

The default date is when VF would have defaulted the NOA would be sent on or after AG bought the debt, which may well be a year after VF defaulted the account. The to dates have no relation to one another.

[salphy]

It was the subject access request that they wanted £10 for that only contained dates of entries on the file that letters sent they couldn't provide copies of the letters.

 

We were told the Vodafone default and Arrow Default are for 2 seperate contracts. On the arrow global defaulted account, under the account status details, it starts in red, defaulted with a balance of £529, then there are three entries in green with a ? saying £0 then another red one saying £0 there is nothing before this to say when the payments were missed. Does this mean it was already defaulted when arrow global took over it? When they took over it did the account status details whilst it was under vodafone get deleted so that's why is starts in red and we now can't see the full history and when the payments were missed? But the account open dates and default dates remain from when Vodafone held the account? I'm really confused and got so many questions!

Is there anywhere we can go where we could show them a copy of the credit file? Is it worth emailing experian to ask them to explain it to us?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

ARROW GLOBAL don't provide telecoms service, so that 'account' would one purchased from VF.

 

Yes the VF 'entry ' would be removed.

It would be very unusual for an account to be sold with out being defaulted.

 

Yes all the original data would have been provided by VF.

[salphy]

Ok. So the bill was already defaulted when passed to Arrow Global. The default date and start dates on our credit file are from when vodafone had it. So really there's nothing Arrow Global can do for us as the account was already defaulted? So has the account status detail history from when vodafone had it gone now? So we can no longer see when the payments were missed etc? Sorry it's just the way we understood it from vodafone was that there are 2 accounts, 1 was defaulted by vodafone, the other passed on to AG and they defaulted it. But by this it looks like the AG account was already defaulted when they bought it?

So i'm not sure where to go from here with regards to the fact that vodafone can't supply copies of the letters they sent, just entries of dates on a file. For £10. We really weren't aware of these bills atall so we had no idea it was defaulting, the letters definitely weren't received because we would have looked into it there and then, not 3 years later. I guess the only thing we can do is wait to see what whoever we are passed on to by vodafone can do thankyou for your help and sorry to mither you all. It's just really confusing and frustrating when it's having such an impact on our lives. Thanks again x

[citizenB]

They should provide you with an activity log within the SAR - this will show the dates that any letters have been sent. If they are code referenced, then they should also provide you with a list of the codes and what they relate to - so for instance.. they would log that on DATE "Letter 4a" was sent. You would then check that Letter 4a is a default notice or a formal demand for payment, etc, etc.

 

They should keep records for 6 years after the relationship has ended, although they will only likely have data for 6 years in total. So if the information you require is likely to have been prior to 2007 then you might not get what you need.

 

There is little point sending a SAR to AG, because they will only have information from the time they purchased the debt and after the default.

[salphy]

Can these activity logs not just be altered by vodafone? I'm reluctant to pay £10 for something that isn't really proof they were sent. We know 100% nothing was received. I don't want to give them another penny to be honest. :-/

[salphy]

So gathering the things requested by the financial ombudsman for a complaint relating to my vodafone account - not a non payment or default complaint - though after reading some of the default stories i feel it is the reason for many other peoples defaults.

Anyway, having stated i haven't signed to be kept in contract for as long as they are trying to keep me in for and they only have my signature for up until November. They reply saying they understand i haven't signed for it but my bank details are there on the account which were provided by me at the time of taking the contract. Surely just cause i gave them my bank details is not me confirming to be kept in contract for longer than i signed for!! This company is an absolute JOKE!!!!

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

 

With all due respect to Lee who works tirelessly to resolve problems for caggers, this one appears to be a right mess.

 

Lee are you able to obtain the numbers for this OP so they can at least confirm if these were ever used by them ?

 

Hi citizenB,

 

Admittedly the thread is becoming confusing and I'm happy to provide clarification to the OP.

 

Salphy, if your partner would prefer me to discuss things further with you then he'll need to confirm that he consents to this.

 

I'll try to call him later today to obtain his permission as well as your contact details.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations

 

Vodafone UK

[salphy]

Hi citizenB,

 

Admittedly the thread is becoming confusing and I'm happy to provide clarification to the OP.

 

Salphy, if your partner would prefer me to discuss things further with you then he'll need to confirm that he consents to this.

 

I'll try to call him later today to obtain his permission as well as your contact details.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations

 

Vodafone UK

 

Sorry its got confusing but this is why we're so confused. That's great thanks Lee.

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi salphy,

 

It's just a quick post to confirm that I've received your partner's most recent email and will get back to him later today.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations

 

Vodafone UK

[2Grumpy]

It was the subject access request that they wanted £10 for that only contained dates of entries on the file that letters sent they couldn't provide copies of the letters.

 

We were told the Vodafone default and Arrow Default are for 2 seperate contracts. On the arrow global defaulted account, under the account status details, it starts in red, defaulted with a balance of £529, then there are three entries in green with a ? saying £0 then another red one saying £0 there is nothing before this to say when the payments were missed. Does this mean it was already defaulted when arrow global took over it? When they took over it did the account status details whilst it was under vodafone get deleted so that's why is starts in red and we now can't see the full history and when the payments were missed? But the account open dates and default dates remain from when Vodafone held the account? I'm really confused and got so many questions!

Is there anywhere we can go where we could show them a copy of the credit file? Is it worth emailing experian to ask them to explain it to us?

 

If the SAR refers to standard letters then they should provide skeleton copies of those letters on request.

 

If there were multiple accounts, they should have provided details of ALL accounts for the tenner. Time to write back to the data controller to ask for confirmation that there are no further accounts or an explanation of why they failed to fully comply with the initial request (as well as the missing data) and those skeleton letters that really should include how they are customised ...

[salphy]

Hi sorry didn't see your reply. I will be requesting an SAR but with reading other peoples responses from Vodafone I'm only expecting a screen shot of dates not actual letters. Anyway, Vodafone have been very unhelpful so before we end up homeless or living apart we are issuing court proceedings. We have also written to and have the backing from our local MP having discussed with her and being made aware of the The Armed Forces Covenant - Section 2 of the Armed Forces Act 2011,

“the Covenant is a promise between the Government, the Nation and the Armed Forces. It’s there to make sure that people in the Armed Forces Community aren’t disadvantaged because of their Service. The Covenant is an obligation on the whole of society. It includes voluntary and charitable bodies, private organisations and individuals, all of whom are asked to recognise our Armed Forces and offer respect, support and fair treatment.” (Having discussed with her the fact my partner was unaware of the outstanding bills due to being at service overseas we feel this is him being disadvantaged due to his service) We received the House of Commons formal complaint form yesterday, though not sure where this will go or what happens with this we are also issuing court proceedings.

We are also doing this as when my partner was first sent overseas his mum agreed to tie up loose ends including paying off his phonebill (at the beginning this is the one i stated he thought he had paid off) ok so we accept the payment took a while to make (with him being away it was difficult to send the money back home for him mum to make the payment - another disadvantage from his service.)

So his mum phoned Vodafone who wanted near £1000 but she agreed a part payment for full settlement of over £500 and made this payment. She thought this was everything paid off and settled and was not made aware otherwise. Having spoke to Lee the forums Vodafone Rep the outstanding already defaulted bill we had on his return from Afghanistan was that this part payment only settled one account so another outstanding bill remained. (We had no idea - misleading communication from Vodafone?)

Anyway, I'm just wondering, to issue court proceedings do we need a solicitor or can we do it ourselves? Also as we are being forced to take things to court we will now want to claim for loss of earnings and losing the home we had an offer accepted for.which has now been sold to someone else (the loss of earnings come from my partner being a dog trainer and as we did not have our own home we have had to turn customers down as we cannot house any more where we currently are) We can put a price on losing out on the customers but what about losing the house? Also the stress of desperately trying and failing to find somewhere to rent that will accept dogs, close enough for us to remain living together?

Also does anyone know what will happen with the complaint with the MP, are we best to allow her to take things further first or issue court proceedings aswell? Vodafone didn't seem too bothered by my letter regarding the further action being taken with the MP and the Armed Forces Covenant. But to be honest I'm not even sure she checked as her reply was along the lines of "Having looked at your file our customer services have already exhausted our internal complaint procedure and sent a deadlock letter" I have replied to make her aware that when the customer service advisers looked into this, we and they, were unaware of the armed forces covenant and have asked her to confirm she is disregarding this.

 

I really appreciate all the advice you have all given, sorry to mither you all but just need a little bit more help with the court side of things. Now we know we are covered by this we do not want to waste any more time with the financial ombudsmen and go straight to court proceedings. Would you all do the same? Thanks.

Edited August 25, 2013 by citizenB

[salphy]

Her reply to my email making them aware the previous investigations were whilst being unaware of the armed forces covenant and asking them to confirm they are disregarding this was:

Thank you for your email

As we are in a position of dead lock we are unable to investigate this matter further

 

Kind Regards,

 

 

 

How convenient. I'm sure they'll magic the ability to be able to investigate again when we get to court!

[citizenB]

Responding to S.O.S.. just having a read back to see how I can help

[salphy]

Thankyou

[citizenB]

Ok, well you don't need the services of a solicitor to issue a claim. You can do this yourself as a Litigant in Person (not represented).

 

I will send out some S.O.S on your behalf and they will be able to advise how you need to go about this. If you are going to be claiming damages you will need to be able to prove your losses.

 

To ensure you aren't hit with costs, are you able to keep your claim to below £10,000 which is the small claims upper limit (increased from £5,000 not long ago).

 

I am pretty certain we also have a cagger who issued a claim against Vodafone.. so I will try and track them down as well. The key is not to simply rush in but to have everything in place before issuing.

 

I will send out the S.O.S and hopefully people will start to look in over the next few days.

 

[salphy]

Yes we can keep it under this, we had to turn down two customers at around £600/dog. We may have to turn down a full litter for a detection dog company if we still can't find somewhere in the next few months. The house I'm not sure what price to put on this it just really upset us that we lost it because it was so lovely and the cheapest one in the area. He agreed £124950, the cheapest house in the area now is £145000 and not as nice. Also the stress that we're now desperately looking for somewhere to live and running out of options.

So where do I start?

Thankyou for your help

[Mike_hawk]

Hi Salphy

 

I'd be inclined to send a SAR.

 

This should provide you with details of the settlement and the terms the initial payment was accepted. If it provides you with acronyms only suggesting template correspondence has been served, press it for the complete text.

[salphy]

Thanks Mike. Will send a request today. Is there any way to avoid the 40 day wait? We haven't really got 40 days :-/

[Mike_hawk]

Thanks Mike. Will send a request today. Is there any way to avoid the 40 day wait? We haven't really got 40 days :-/

 

Unfortunately not, it has 40 days and I'm fairly sure it will use all of it and more.

 

Honestly don't believe you'll get this resolved in the short term, its possible you could have a case if it can be proven it acted contrary to any settlement agreement you believe you entered into. Without some evidence its difficult to see the basis for a claim.

 

I suppose you could send a demand to each for the return of any monies paid and see if it prompts a reaction (doubtful, but for the price of a stamp worth a go)

[salphy]

The MP seemed to think we'd have a case with regards to the armed forces covenant and him being away. Not sure but we have nothing left to lose other than a court fee which is better than doing nothing and letting them walk all over us. My partners new company spend over £100000/year on contracts with them and are now discussing changing providers in support so hopefully even if we lose a court fee Vodafone will lose alot more.

[Mike_hawk]

The MP seemed to think we'd have a case with regards to the armed forces covenant and him being away. Not sure but we have nothing left to lose other than a court fee which is better than doing nothing and letting them walk all over us. My partners new company spend over £100000/year on contracts with them and are now discussing changing providers in support so hopefully even if we lose a court fee Vodafone will lose alot more.

 

Don't know enough about the covenant to assist, I understood it to be operative post April 2012 but with no legal obligation on the service provider :-/