Mother's Debt with Provident/C. K. Edrupt & Co.

[citizenB]

Thank you for responding to S.O.S davyly

[Peterbard]

You're very welcome. I hope it bears some fruit. Sadly, little there is instant, but I do feel that we should get this debt written off.

[dx100uk]

disgusting behaviour

 

smacks of the agent that was caught cooking the books recently to gain commission etc case

 

just for the record

 

how much were the original loan

 

and how much has she to date paid?

 

dx

[TheLion]

Thank you citizenB and davly. The help that you have provided is much appreciated.

 

The phone calls stopped in July. This is only due to the fact that we changed mother's number.

 

The loan agreement with the £390 weekly income states the following:

 

Net Weekly Income

Applicant/Spouse/Partner income (a) £170

Other income (b) £120

Total weekly income (a+b) = © £390

 

Net Weekly Outgoings

Rent/mortgage (d) £80

All loan repayments (including HC) (e) £33.20

Other regular outgoings (f) £45

Total weekly outgoings (d+e+f) = (g) £158.20

Weekly disposable income (c-g) £232

 

Now if you can do maths, unlike the Provident Agent and the Clerk who checked and signed it also. You will probably notice that (a+b) = £290 not £390!!!

 

And, (d+e+f) = £231.80 not £232!!!

 

My mother doesn't even pay rent/mortgage. Ans, as stated previously, her sole income was only about £84 per week.

 

This loan was for £1500, the total outstanding, minus the August payment that they have ignored and the September payment that has just been made is £3452.16

 

There are two loans:

 

1. £700 with £784 interest, totaling £1484. As of the 3rd March 2012 this had £741 outstanding.

2. £1500 with £1680 inerest, totaling £3180. As of the 3rd March 2012 this had £2958 outstanding.

 

Since the 19.03.13 she has been paying £10.36 per month without fail.

 

davly, do you believe that the MALG route is a viable one? I have looked into this lightly but I am not sure.

[TheLion]

I'm not sure if anyone else has heard this but I recall a Provident Agent stating once to us that they are not allowed to lend if you have less than £30 left per week. If this is true then I have discovered another loan where the agent, a different one, has fiddled the figures:

 

This loan is dated seven months prior to the one listed in my last post:

 

Net weekly income

Applicant/Spouse/Partner (a) £120

Total weekly income (a+b) = © £120

 

Net weekly outgoings

All loan repayments (including HC) (e) £34

Other regular outgoings (f) £55

Total weekly outgoings (d+e+f) =(g) £89

Weekly disposable income (c-g) £31

 

Nte the difference between this and the last loan with regard to the income and expenditure. I can assure you that even at this time my mother only had about £84 per week coming in. Notice how the 'Weekly disposable income' is £1 above what I stated at the beginning of this post.

[citizenB]

 

I'm not sure if anyone else has heard this but I recall a Provident Agent stating once to us that they are not allowed to lend if you have less than £30 left per week. If this is true then I have discovered another loan where the agent, a different one, has fiddled the figures:

 

 

IMHO, your Mother certainly appears to have been a victim of Irresponsible lending by the Agent(s).

 

What is MALG ? - Ignore.. I have discovered what it is

[citizenB]

I would obtain that Power of Attorney or Authority to act - and then make a complaint to the Provi Head office.

[Peterbard]

Re the MALG guidelines, it is the obvious first route to try given your Mum's pre-existing mental health condition, but only if it was sufficiently serious for her to be being treated under at least the GP and preferably a consultant. I've had great successes with these forms, but only in specific cases. You can always just try a letter asking them to write off the debt first, but for now that is not a priority, as there may be a better route, which you'd already mentioned, and have alluded to again this morning re the irresponsible lending route. CAB or similar are likely to be more help here as they would be face to face with you both, and things can be better explained. Clearly the lending was irresponsible, and while I haven't heard of the £30 per week issue, I think the very fact they have misrepresented the figures so badly speak volumes. There is a criminal offence of Fraud by Misrepresentation which could potentially be pursued, but I'm not really qualified to advise on that, nor would I try it before other routes have been tested and exhausted.

 

I would go to the CAB and take all the documentation with you TBH. They can do a professional I&E and may be able to resolve certain things there and then.

 

One thing is fairly certain, Provident will be very keen to avoid going anywhere near a court with this, so if they threaten court action, I think you can reasonably safely ignore it. Obviously I'm not in a position to give a 100% guarantee, but any judge looking at this would only be able to decide one way IMO.

 

For me, my priorities would be twofold. Firstly, putting things into place to protect your Mum into the future. Secondly to get to CAB and show them everything. Ideally you need someone working on a one to one basis with you here rather than trying to resolve it all over an internet forum.

 

We're always here, and more than willing to help whenever needed though.

[TheLion]

UPDATE:

 

Mother received a letter from Provident today with regard to the letter that we sent on 12.09.13

 

It states that they apologise for the agreement (the Modrice one) that was sent out by mistake due to a computer error. And they have assured that this will not happen again.

 

They cannot provide any further information that we requested as they have provided everything that they hold on the system and it has been checked more than once. How did they miss the 'agreement' then?

 

And no informaton will be comming from the local office as not all documents are recorded. This is really convienent for them, though we do have copies of the letters that were sent and signed proof of delivery via 'track & trace'.

 

It is really odd that the only financial information that they hold on mother is from just loans. The SAR reply had more than just two loans in it, but only two pre-loan financial detail forms, where are the others?

 

I will be giving CAB a call about this as davyly stated. I will also be sending in a complaint to the ICO about the 'Modrice Agreement'.

 

With regard to the I & E form that the CAB can do we already did one last year based upon the National Debtline guide. Provident have accepted this so I don't understand why Edrupt are pushing it? I also don't believe that Edrupt are not aware of my mother's health. Further, form briefly looking at MALG Provident are obliged to inform any DCA etcetera of the customers mental health.

 

Do you think that a letter would help here, or just go with the CAB?

[Peterbard]

If they've accepted the I&E what Edrupt are doing IMO amounts to harassment, hence the letter I suggested. Another letter telling them about your mother's help will remove any doubts whatsoever. Remind them also of their obligation to to Edrupt.

 

Did the I&E identify your mother as being in hardship or not?

[TheLion]

UPDATE:

 

We sent another letter to Provident and Edrupt. We have done the following:

 

1. Warned them under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

2. Made a new offer of repayment at £17.50 per month.

3. Requested a copy of Provident's Policy with regard to Irresponsible Lending.

4. Informed them that we will be contacting the CAB to discuss completing the Debt and Mental Health Evidence Form (MALG).

5. Reminded Provident of their responbility with regard to Edrupt's behaviour.

6. Pointed out the 'maths' problems with the only financial details that they have on record.

7. Stated that we will be complaining to the ICO with regard to the 'Modrice' agreement, and that we my infact send a copy of it to the customer in question so that they can deal with it from their end.

8. Pointed out that they may be breaching the OFT Irresponsible lending guidance for creditors March 2010 (updated February 2011) OFT1107.

9. Informed them of mother's health and the effect that it is having upon her.

[TheLion]

UPDATE:

 

Mother received a letter from Provident yesterday:

 

 

• There were two missing repayments, which mother paid on time as part of her agreed repayment plan, this is what they state:
  'I can confirm that two unexpected repayments were received'. These were not unexpected!!! Provident agreed to the repayment plan in March 2012!!!
  
• 
  
• They have not provided us with a copy of their 'Irresponsible Lending Policy' as we requested though they state:
  
• 'Provident Personal Credit has comprehensive policies and procedures in place to maintain responsible lending standards'. Where are they then!!!
  
• 
  
• With regard to us stating that we will be contacting the CAB about mother's ongoing mental/physical health problems and the MALG form they are now requesting,
  
• they state, a 'medical report (or similar evidence) detailing any physical or mental health issues you believe you may have been suffering from at the time making your loan applications. It would help if you could explain why you believe you would not have had the mental capicity to understand the terms and conditions of the loan at the time of signing the agreement. If you believe your ability to manage your account with us is inhibited by one or more of the conditions listed on the medical report, it may help if we understood why and whether the condition is likely to be a permenant or temporary issue'.
  
• They are having a laugh here!!! We stated that mother has acute anxiety & depression, that in August 2012 she suffered a haemorrhagic stroke which left her with serious physical and mental health problems and that she has recently been diagnosed with Post Stroke Vascular Dementia which is not going to get beter!!!
   
  
• The next makes me really laugh. They believe that all of the 'paperwork' with regard to the loans that I stated in my post of 14.09.13 are correct and completed in-line with their company policy!!! Do they just make this s**t up!!! Further, they state: 'If we declined applications for credit based on a presumption that certain individuals are not capable of making informed borrowing decisions this could amount to unlawful discrimination for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010'.
  
• Here is the cream on the metaphorical cake. They state that the have no record of us ever making a SAR and that no payment has ever been made with regard to one!!! I have it in my hand now, it came from the same office!!! How do you explain the fact that we have, and have sent them photocopies of, the Modrice agreement and the fabricated financial information!!!
   
  
• The last two pages of the letter are the following:
  

1. They request that mother gives them consent to allow Provident to record mother's health details on their system so that they can then make informed decisions on how to handle the account. What the hell is this about!!! They know what is wrong with her as we have informed them about five times in the past yet they just ignore it.

 

2. They request the following: Mother's name, address, reference number.

 

Answers with regad to the following questions:

 

Does your mental health issue make it difficult to repay your debt and if so how?

 

Does your mental health issue affect your ability to deal or communicate with us and if so how?

 

Does anyone help you manage your finances (such as a carer or relative) and if so who is it and what are their contact details?

 

Any advice with regard to the next step would be a great help

[TheLion]

Just noticed that the SAR states:

 

SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST NOTES

 

Complaint Case Logged: 09/07/2013

Senior Customer Relations Officer: Justin Hill

 

and guess what the letter received yesterday states...

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Justin Hill

Senior Customer Complaints Officer

0845 603 2588

 

I believe that they are full of the brown smelly stuff

[TheLion]

I thought that it is about time that I got the CAB involved. Is there another way of contacting them apart from the phone, as I have phoned about twenty times today without getting to speak to anyone?

[citizenB]

Google the CAB in your area and see if they have an email address.

 

I agree, it is very frustrating and CAB confirm that they use the 0844 number in order to generate income .. which is a bit unfair on those people who are desperate for help and have no income.

 

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice/why_we_use_084_numbers.htm

[TheLion]

Thank you citizenB. I checked the local office and can find no email. You can't even go there unless you have an appointment. Guess I will just have to try again on Monday to get through.

[citizenB]

I don't know what else to suggest

 

Are they local to you.. if so, perhaps you could stick a letter through their letter box. Advise that the amount of time you have spent hanging on their expensive "Help" line has probably single handedly paid to keep their office open for the next few months - or perhaps even to hire a solicitor, if you hadn't already spent the money waiting for help.

[Old Cogger]

Edrupt and Co

Name CK Edrupt and Co

Type Debt Collection Agency

Address

Tel 0800 91 66 44 2

Fax 01274 728 464

Pref. Contact Method Phone Email Fax Post

Compassion Rating 90.82%

(a higher score increases the chance of negotiating interest rates down to 0% in the event of financial difficulty. this number is based on actual negotiations handled by the debt management firm vincent bond and co ltd).

Total Debts 202

Total Debts For Calc 98 (Client has made atleast 3 payments)

Total Debts Frozen 89

(Total Debts, Total Debts For Calc and Total Debts Frozen are displayed for testing. For debt to be considered for calculation at least 3 payments should have been made by client).

[TheLion]

UPDATE:

 

Mother has just received a letter from Edrupt requesting that she complete the enclosed forms (the same forms as Provident sent with regard to consent so that they can record her mental/physical health conditions and details of how said health conditions effect her, does anyone help her and who are they, how her conditions effect her in dealing with them etcetera) or they may initiate 'statutory recovery action'.

 

They also want her to pay out for a medical report as evidence.

 

As you can guess this has really shook mother up. She is afraid that they are going to send the bailiffs in and take her possessions. I have informed her that they can't do this without a court order and that she is in fact still paying them.

 

This is crazy as they already know what is wrong with her and they have been informed several times of her preferred contact method due to her health. What are they playing at?

 

She is going to make an appointment with the CAB tomorrow if she can get through. We did manage to speak to them a week or so ago but the advice we received was less than I know, which can't be right!!! The bloke we spoke to couldn't understand that she needed complaints wirtten and sent to the FOS, ICO, TS and the OFT. Note that I would do them myself but my mental/physical health has been really bad lately and I have enough on my plate just tying to hold down my job. He advised us to contact a solicitor who in turn stated that we should contact the CAB as they should be dealing with this.

 

I have loosely drafted up what needs to go into each of the letters of complaint above and I have put all of mother's paper work on chronological order for the CAB.

 

On top of this she has just received her ESA50!!!

 

Any advice with regard to what Provident/Edrupt are playing at and are they allowed to request said information? I can understand the consent form about the procesing of her health but the other makes me wonder...

[citizenB]

Probably not.

 

I am wondering if now is the time for you to advise them that as you appear to be getting no closer to a resolution, you are requiring them to provide you with a deadlock letter so that you can take your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman. That you believe they are simply going through the motions.. that as an example - they claim never to have received a Subject Access Request - this from someone called Justin Hill. However, you have in your possession, the data that you requested via the SAR they never received and the accompanying letter is signed by, you guessed it Justin Hill.

 

That you have provided them with sufficient information and for them to now insist that you provide them with confidential private medical history which they wish to use (for whatever purpose) at a significant cost to your already strained budget (because a GP will charge you for this) appears to be outside the requirements of the OFT.

[Jam_Buttie]

Ask them which act of parliment allows them to ask for medical reports

 

These are just scare tactics. Nothing more.

[citizenB]

Section 9 of the Lending Code is an interesting read.

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]47450[/ATTACH]

 

 

233.

Additional care needs to be taken when dealing with certain types of debt. Where a customer or his agent has provided appropriate and relevant evidence of an on-going mental health problem that affects the customer’s ability to repay their debts, the debt should not be sold.

 

 

And from paras 239 onwards

[stu007]

Hi

 

Please also remember that Provident Personal Credit are actually part of 'Provident Financial Group (PFG):

 

http://www.providentfinancial.com/index.asp?pageid=19

 

On the 'What We Do' have a read of the Consumer Credit Division and their is Provident Personal Credit.

[TheLion]

Sorry if this is a post that has been discussed already.

 

Don't know if this has anything to do with the fake solicitor lark that Wonga etcetera have employed

but Provident and Greenwood have taken our debts with them back from C. K. Edrupt & Co.

I also know of one other person who has had the same thing happen to them within the last two months.

 

Any idea why?

[Ell-enn]

I've just posted something on that same subject - someone I know has had their account taken back from CKE

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?427851-Wonga-Fake-letters-scandal-spreads-to-Student-Loans-Company