Landlord demanding rent but possible problems with S48

[BigMuz]

Hi

 

I'm hoping I can get some advice on here about my current landlord situation. I am currently living in a house that my father had rented from 1964 and when he died in 2011 I inherited his tenancy. There was an issue though in that my fathers original landlord had died and his estate was in probate - when I made a claim to inherit the tenancy things got a little nasty. Essentially I was told that I had no right to live here by his solicitor and he started to refuse the rent from me. I made it very clear to the landlord and solicitor that my rights to remain in the home I grew up in were very clear and it took 17 months to get a letter from the solicitor finally acknowledging my legal right to stay...

 

I had complained to my local council about this but it seems that my landlord has since joined the Private Landlord Scheme and I now get absolutely no help from them.

 

Anyway, when I last had a meeting at the council I was told clearly by one of the people there that my landlord couldn't demand any rent from me anyway because he hadn't served an S48 and because the house was in probate he couldn't get that S48 until it was all sorted. The landlord turned up the other day with an S48 that is dated 1st March 2013 and demanded rent from that date onwards to be paid to him but then asked me to pay the remainder into another account? One that supposedly belongs to the solicitor acting for the estate of the late landlord. When I had the meeting at the local authority at the start of the year, I was told that the S48 was proof that he was the legal landlord and person entitled to the rent and this was for my benefit because if I paid him and it turned out he wasn't the landlord I could have trouble getting the money back. This new S48 has confused me and the council seem reluctant to help me now (but they give him as much advice as he likes) - my point is this; can he demand rent from the period before he was officially pronounced as the owner of the house? Surely the "estate" should contact me with relevant paperwork rather than him?

 

I apologise if my message sounds incoherent but this is stressing me out somewhat and I'm getting tired of all the messing around we've had to put up with for nearly 2 years. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

[mariner51]

Can't see your problem. If in doubt contact the Solicitor to confirm new LL has inherited the property as of 1st March and the second account is for deceased's estate. Once s48 is provided, all rents owed to new LL become payable immediately.

Why was rent not paid to the deceased's estate (Executor) after LLs death? Rent ws still due to deceased's estate, no s48 necessary. (Executor in loco LL)

 

Were you living with your father in the same property at time of his death? If so, how long for?

[BigMuz]

Can't see your problem. If in doubt contact the Solicitor to confirm new LL has inherited the property as of 1st March and the second account is for deceased's estate. Once s48 is provided, all rents owed to new LL become payable immediately.

 

I understand the general procedure for the S48 my concern comes from the way in which it's been handed to me and the information I had received a few months ago doesn't quite match what I was told to expect.

 

When I had the meeting at the council I was told that the S48 was a guarantee that the person I was paying the rent to was the person legally entitled to receive the money and without it I could be paying rent only to have someone else, the real legal owner of the property, come along and ask me for the money that was due. Since the new LL took legal possession of the house in march 2013 what guarantees do I have that this "account" I've been told to wire money to is actually going to the right people who are entitled to the money? If he's now the owner, why not ask for all of it?

 

Why was rent not paid to the deceased's estate (Executor) after LLs death? Rent ws still due to deceased's estate, no s48 necessary. (Executor in loco LL)

 

The original LL died a while before my father did and rent was paid on time for about 18 months or so until my own father passed away. For several months after my fathers death I attempted to pay the rent but the LL refused to accept money from me so I stopped offering. He did this under advice from his solicitor apparently and his solicitor was kind enough to even write me a letter telling me I had no rights to remain in the house despite the very obvious legal right to inherit the tenancy. Since my father died in Sept.2011 not only have they refused rent but I have been awfully harassed by the LL who has done his absolute best to make my life a misery; removing security gates and fences at the side and back of the house, leaving rubbish and crap on my drive that he would come collect later...basically he wanted me out of the house. His original ploy was to refuse rent from me and then hit me with an eviction notice for non-payment of rent which he actually got in trouble for by my local authority.

 

In short, I could not pay rent to someone who flat out refuses to take my money.

 

When we had the arbitration at the civic center, I expected them to just tell him he had to take the rent from me but they told me not to pay anything until he provided an S48

 

Were you living with your father in the same property at time of his death? If so, how long for?

 

I've lived in the house my whole life, I was actually born in the house and with the exception of 3 years at university I have been resident in the house permanently. My legal right to inherit the tenancy is undeniable. The original LL didn't spend a penny on the upkeep of the house and my father paid the bills for a long time. In 2008 with the consent of the old LL under the impression I'd be reimbursed I paid nearly £8000 to repair the kitchen, bathroom and electricity in the house but I never got this back so, at the very least, I feel like I've earned the right to stay here.

 

EDIT: It's worth pointing out that I have all of the rent due in an account for safe keeping, payment isn't an issue, I just want to be sure that money I pay out is going to the people who are legally entitled to it.

[mariner51]

I now understand your caution.

I assume the solic was the old LLs Executor, so inform him that 'Mr new LL' has provided a s48, backdated to Mar and requires you to pay rent due before that date to account number & sortcode which he states is the deceased estate account. Just request confirmation in writing that this is correct.

He should also be able to confirm that Mr new LL did inherit the property and the date title was transferred. This may appear on Land Registry records.

 

Mr new LL would have been advised not to accept rent from you whilst your claim was in doubt for fear of establishing a de facto tenancy with you, so not spite, but his alleged other action was 'ill considered'.

[45002]

 

My legal right to inherit the tenancy is undeniable.

 

 

 

OP would have inherit the tenancy under 1977 Rent act Statutory rights of Succession and have a Assured Tenancy !

 

Sounds like the Solicitor hasn't a clue and New LL wants to get OP out

 

Any dispute on Succession rights would be up the courts to deicide and not a LL/Solicitor....

Edited August 2, 2013 by 45002

[raydetinu]

IMHO the disputed rent due to the old LL should paid to the solicitor acting as executor so it can be added to the estate and then distributed accordingly.

Contact estate solicitor and ask him what he wants you to do with the money. make sure you get a receipt and confirmation in writing.

[BigMuz]

Sounds like the Solicitor hasn't a clue and New LL wants to get OP out.

 

You're correct. The solicitor actually phoned me and asked me what rights he thought I had to stay in the house. He wasn't particularly friendly and told me on the phone that the old LL's family wanted me out to sell the house

 

Contact estate solicitor and ask him what he wants you to do with the money.

 

To be honest, given my previous encounters with the solicitor I wouldn't either trust or believe anything he told me. I'm more concerned that the estate was in probate for so long and even the council wanted to know exactly what the hold up was. From what I gather there were several parties involved in claiming some kind of interest in the old LL's property which tied them up for so long but I don't trust any of these people as far as I can throw them and since my new LL joined the Private Landlord Assoc. the rentals people in the council have been far from helpful - they've not even penalised him for the crap he put us through such as leaving us with no fires through the winter and removing radiators etc saying he'd be back to fix them and never returning. Between the new LL and his solicitor I've been having kittens and then there's the whole business regarding the reimbursment of the monies I spent fixing the house for him which he flat out refuses to discuss. Apparently since he wasn't the landlord at the time he has no responsibility on the matter yet, at the same time, he's asked for the money for the rent for that period to be paid into his personal bank account.

 

I'm also kind of annoyed at having to pay rent for a period when he flat out refused to acknowledge me as a tenant and did nothing to the house to keep it habitable.

 

EDIT: In looking at the options to get the solicitor to handle the parts owed to the estate before the new LL officially became the owner of the property, I have found the estate is wound up and that all parties have been given their portions of the inheritance. In this instance what should I do?

Edited August 5, 2013 by BigMuz
New Information

[raydetinu]

Suggest you speak to Shelter about getting things done to the house and formalising the tenancy with your new LL; even if its just confirming you have a protected tenancy.

I am sure they have come across this situation before regarding estates and the beneficiaries wanting a protected tenant out.

[BigMuz]

Just a quick question that I'm hoping one of the CAG members might be able to help me with.

 

Can a landlord demand rent if he hasn't complied with Section 3 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985?

 

The man who supposedly owns the house I live in turns up in August last year telling me that he was the owner, issued a Section 48 document dated March 1st and demanded rent. From my understanding, any change of landlord requires a S3 Notice as well as a S48 notice and that failure to provide a S3 is a criminal offence?

 

An important point to raise here is that I had previously paid over £7k to the landlord before he started refusing my rent money but the estate for his late relative accidentally sent me a statement of account as they wrapped up the probate and it declared ZERO income for this property since his relative died.

 

They desperately want me out the house and he has attempted to take me to court for the rent. I have countersued him on the grounds that he's had a lot of money off me but not declared it but I think his failure to provide a S3 notice invalidates his claim? His S48 could also be potentially invalid since it is dated 1st March but I believe that he may have acquired the property on the 17th March. I'm not sure if an s48 dated before his aquisition is valid or not either?

 

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

[45002]

Just a quick question that I'm hoping one of the CAG members might be able to help me with.

 

Can a landlord demand rent if he hasn't complied with Section 3 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985?

 

The man who supposedly owns the house I live in turns up in August last year telling me that he was the owner, issued a Section 48 document dated March 1st and demanded rent. From my understanding, any change of landlord requires a S3 Notice as well as a S48 notice and that failure to provide a S3 is a criminal offence?

 

An important point to raise here is that I had previously paid over £7k to the landlord before he started refusing my rent money but the estate for his late relative accidentally sent me a statement of account as they wrapped up the probate and it declared ZERO income for this property since his relative died.

 

They desperately want me out the house and he has attempted to take me to court for the rent. I have countersued him on the grounds that he's had a lot of money off me but not declared it but I think his failure to provide a S3 notice invalidates his claim? His S48 could also be potentially invalid since it is dated 1st March but I believe that he may have acquired the property on the 17th March. I'm not sure if an s48 dated before his aquisition is valid or not either?

 

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

 

Reading you previous thread,this dispute is on going http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?398691-Landlord-demanding-rent-but-possible-problems-with-S48

 

Very Confusing !

 

Could you explain a bit more detail this court case, Is it on going, when was it, what was it for and so on ?

 

Thank you.

[stu007]

Hi BigMuz

 

I have merged your thread on the same matter so that you get better advice and have left a short redirect

[BigMuz]

Hi, sorry for the delay.

 

With regards to the court case, I'm in the middle of getting a judgement set aside. The landlord had notice served on me while I was in hospital and got a default judgement. I have been assured that it should be an easy case to have the matter set aside given I was in hospital and my defence, although late, was late only by a day and there were mitigating circumstances. The scary thing now is that he is starting section 8 proceedings to try and remove me from the house.

 

I am actually involved in two legal battles though now.

 

The first is with the "estate" of the relative who died. They have sued me for rent they originally refused from the death of my father up to March 2013 - I am countersuing for the costs I incurred in repairing the property that the old landlord had originally agreed to pay me for. This is in hand now and the courts have told them they MUST enter into mediation with me (they had previously refused to enter discussions)

 

The second is now with the new landlord - who claims to have owned the house since March but only came round to see me in August. He presented me with an S48 on a scabby piece of paper and demanded all rent from that point (he also asked me to pay him the estate money directly to his bank too and I have this in writing from him). When I mentioned the works I'd carried out, he curtly informed me that he wasn't prepared to deal with matters before his "acquisition" of the property. I asked him about the many thousands of pounds directly to him, by me, and at first he flat out denied taking it originally but then conceded he had but "had full permission to do so". I am acutely aware of how estates work and I explained my concerns in that I was self-employed and had been giving him money that he was effectively not entitled to (unless he could prove otherwise) and that if the money wasn't with the estate and assets then it wasn't being taxed by HMRC and that I could be liable should other beneficiaries come forward. He even conceded that it looked odd because, in his exact words, it "could look like money laundering". I told him that I'd be happy to pay him the rent from March on the provision of a letter saying the money he'd received had gone to the estate, was distributed and I wouldn't be held liable should other relatives come forward. He left my home assuring me that he'd do this. I never received a single word from him, just an invoice from the estate solicitor and a letter accidentally sent to me that was due to go to his father explaining that was a statement of account for the estate and a cheque for £50'000. The statement of account showed ZERO income from the property i live in despite me paying over £7k to them.

 

The short of it is, neither the (new?)landlord or the solicitor acting as executor will acknowledge the money paid to them. They act like it doesn't exist and my only assumption is that he's pocketed it, not declared it to the taxman and the solicitor dare not say anything that might incriminate their clients family.

 

What's even more strange is that the (new?)landlord has engaged a completely different law firm to deal with me..I'm fairly certain they don't know half of whats gone on but they're under no obligation to act on it. They simply want to aid him in evicting me from the home I've lived in all my life. To be honest, this whole situation is tipping me to breaking point. There's so much I can list along the lines of harassment and awkwardness that it's starting to have an effect on my health.

 

My question with regards to the S3 notice is that I am unsure if he can demand any rent without providing this?

 

My understanding from what I've read online is that he must provide a S3 notice with an S48 notice; S48 alone doesn't constitute anything other than where I can send legal letters should I need to. He also needs to provide this within 2 months of acquiring his interest in the property else he's committed a criminal offence.

[BigMuz]

If any of the CAG members know, who would I report a breach of S3 to? Since it's a criminal offence I was thinking I might have to call the police but I'm not sure. Any advice? It seems reporting this sooner would be more beneficial to me since he's now trying to evict me (illegally since without an S3 the responsibility for rent collection etc. falls to the old landlord from what I can gather)

[raydetinu]

suggest you contact either shelter, they have a legal team or a solicitor.

[45002]

Hi, sorry for the delay.

 

With regards to the court case, I'm in the middle of getting a judgement set aside. The landlord had notice served on me while I was in hospital and got a default judgement. I have been assured that it should be an easy case to have the matter set aside given I was in hospital and my defence, although late, was late only by a day and there were mitigating circumstances. The scary thing now is that he is starting section 8 proceedings to try and remove me from the house.

 

I am actually involved in two legal battles though now.

 

The first is with the "estate" of the relative who died. They have sued me for rent they originally refused from the death of my father up to March 2013 - I am countersuing for the costs I incurred in repairing the property that the old landlord had originally agreed to pay me for. This is in hand now and the courts have told them they MUST enter into mediation with me (they had previously refused to enter discussions)

 

The second is now with the new landlord - who claims to have owned the house since March but only came round to see me in August. He presented me with an S48 on a scabby piece of paper and demanded all rent from that point (he also asked me to pay him the estate money directly to his bank too and I have this in writing from him). When I mentioned the works I'd carried out, he curtly informed me that he wasn't prepared to deal with matters before his "acquisition" of the property. I asked him about the many thousands of pounds directly to him, by me, and at first he flat out denied taking it originally but then conceded he had but "had full permission to do so". I am acutely aware of how estates work and I explained my concerns in that I was self-employed and had been giving him money that he was effectively not entitled to (unless he could prove otherwise) and that if the money wasn't with the estate and assets then it wasn't being taxed by HMRC and that I could be liable should other beneficiaries come forward. He even conceded that it looked odd because, in his exact words, it "could look like money laundering". I told him that I'd be happy to pay him the rent from March on the provision of a letter saying the money he'd received had gone to the estate, was distributed and I wouldn't be held liable should other relatives come forward. He left my home assuring me that he'd do this. I never received a single word from him, just an invoice from the estate solicitor and a letter accidentally sent to me that was due to go to his father explaining that was a statement of account for the estate and a cheque for £50'000. The statement of account showed ZERO income from the property i live in despite me paying over £7k to them.

 

The short of it is, neither the (new?)landlord or the solicitor acting as executor will acknowledge the money paid to them. They act like it doesn't exist and my only assumption is that he's pocketed it, not declared it to the taxman and the solicitor dare not say anything that might incriminate their clients family.

 

What's even more strange is that the (new?)landlord has engaged a completely different law firm to deal with me..I'm fairly certain they don't know half of whats gone on but they're under no obligation to act on it. They simply want to aid him in evicting me from the home I've lived in all my life. To be honest, this whole situation is tipping me to breaking point. There's so much I can list along the lines of harassment and awkwardness that it's starting to have an effect on my health.

 

My question with regards to the S3 notice is that I am unsure if he can demand any rent without providing this?

 

My understanding from what I've read online is that he must provide a S3 notice with an S48 notice; S48 alone doesn't constitute anything other than where I can send legal letters should I need to. He also needs to provide this within 2 months of acquiring his interest in the property else he's committed a criminal offence.

 

2 court cases ?

 

If you already paid £7,000 to new LL what's the point of asking for a notice ?

 

If any of the CAG members know, who would I report a breach of S3 to? Since it's a criminal offence I was thinking I might have to call the police but I'm not sure. Any advice? It seems reporting this sooner would be more beneficial to me since he's now trying to evict me (illegally since without an S3 the responsibility for rent collection etc. falls to the old landlord from what I can gather)

 

The police will not want to know about this, If there where to be a prosecution (Highly unlikely) to happen it would be local council using what's called Crown solicitors !

 

From what I can make out from your posts, your in danger of loosing your home due to Rent arrears !

 

Only people who can help you out of this mess is a Solicitor, if not Shelter or CAB and get help ASAP....

 

 

Good Luck

[BigMuz]

If you already paid £7,000 to new LL what's the point of asking for a notice ?

 

I'll explain, when the original landlord died, my father was still the original tenant in the house under a regulated tenancy. I paid the rent for him, he was old and had retired some years before so I paid it to the original landlord. When he died, his relative turned up at the house to say he'd died and that he now owned the property. Being a little green when it comes to probate and wills etc. I simply took him at his word and was paying him cheques, made out to him personally, for the rent up to the point my own father died several years later. It was only when my dad died that it came to light he wasn't the owner of the property but rather it was in the hands of executors still who were a solicitors firm in town. It is my understanding that without a grant of probate, he should never have been coming to the house to take money from me..or rather it should never have been paid to him personally but to an account for the estate to distribute to beneficiaries (and I know there were other beneficiaries since they were arguing so much the estate was in probate for over 5 years). I had asked for clarification on this from both him and his solicitor. It's my understanding that should other relatives come about the rent I can still remain liable. I had asked for a simple assurance that monies paid to him, by me, went to the right place and for a guarantee I wouldn't be held liable should someone come forward. This has never come forward.

 

The other issue stems from me having a dispute with the estate. I say they owe me nearly £8000 for works done to the property that the old landlord inspected personally and agreed to reimburse me for. The current issue I have stems from the simple fact that I told the estate that should they wish to collect the rent that they'd previously refused they should take me to court and i would countersue for the work. Knowing this, they have apparently assigned the house to a family member who has then failed to notify me of the assignment. This, as far as i'm concerned, is to have me fighting on two fronts. However, even though he presented me with an S48 six months after he has supposedly been put on the deeds to the house, that in itself isn't a notice of assignment or ownership but rather where to send papers to. Since the man who claims to now own the house has ALWAYS been the man I've spoken to, I would like this clarifying and I'd also like to know why he didn't notify me in the time he should have done?

 

I'm essentially being conned out of money the old LL owed me. He gets me out the house and gets £8000 of kitchen and bathroom done for nothing.

 

The notice I require would satisfy several things that I've been asking for. As part of the S3 i can legally ask about the money paid to him beforehand that he refuses to acknowledge. An S3 allows me, (from what I gather), to ask questions about the assignment and estate. As it stands I get no answers when I ask now. Also, without proof of assignment (or notice of assignment) can he demand rent? Especially if he's purposely left notifying me of his assignment in order to try and get the estate wrapped up before I make a claim?

 

I'm just looking at all avenues of possibility. Paying the man his rent isn't an issue, I can pay it but I feel aggrieved at giving him money when he's blatantly tried to rip me off and done everything he can to make my life miserable not including leaving me without electricity in the upstairs of the house for 3 months, no heating in one room for nearly a year or his gardening where he pulled down fences and gates and never came back to fix them leaving ME to pay for fencing and security..