@asklloydsbank Capquest purchased old LTSB 2007 Credit Card account - No CCA

[krysp]

Hi,

 

I'd really appreciate some guidance on the following:

 

I've requested an SAR from Lloyds TSB a couple of weeks ago and yesterday, I received a letter from LTSB requesting a signature and completion of a Data Subject Access Request Form (4 pages of pointless questions as far as I can see).

 

Tackling the form first, can I politely tell them to stick their form as I have already given them ample information in my original SAR letter with the £10 postal order and remind them that the clock is still ticking?

 

Regarding the signature, I can go one of three ways:

1. Continue as before, with a printed name only and enclose the template signature letter.
   
2. Use the CAG Anti-Tamper signature.
   
3. Get a mate to sign my name for me.
   

Any advice on the above would be much appreciated.

 

Ta, Krysp

[cymruambyth]

Hi, if you don't complete the for you won't get any information from LTSB:( I sent an incorrct signature for myself and signed oh's name for him, they supplied the documents after 39 days.... Another technique is to draw crosses or lines through your signature.

When you get your paperwork, check all dates against any letters you may have, my default notice was shown to be sent later than the date on the document, which unfortunately made it invalid

[cerberusalert]

Tell Lloyds that you will collect the documents from a local branch & prove your identity there.

[krysp]

Thanks for the info, collecting the docs in branch is a very cunning plan!

 

It's a complete pain having to complete the form from Lloyds though. If I didn't complete it fully, could Lloyds argue against providing the SAR info?

[cerberusalert]

You don't have to fill in their form. You have made a legal request for all the data they hold on you under the Data Protection Act & if they continue to play silly beggers make a complaint to the ICO https://www.ico.gov.uk/Global/contact_us.aspx who have the power to take enforcement action & fine them £5000. Remind Lloyds that the 40 days from your original request is still ticking.

[krysp]

Once again, thanks for the info provided. I've incorporated the suggestions into a written response to LTSB and reminder that the 40 day deadline is fast approaching.

 

I've also included a request for a cheque for £0.70 (recorded delivery) along with a Business reply envelope should they require any specific information from me.

 

Trivial I know, but they need to know that I'm in control of this process not them!!

[krysp]

Hi guys and gals,

 

Received a Default Notice from LTSB yesterday on a CC account that's currently in Dispute (no valid CCA).

 

Does anyone have a template letter to rebuff the DN?

 

I'm going to start a thread later today to document my journey so far and will post the DN to make sure it's legal.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

krysp

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Krysp,

Have you already sent the the account in dispute letter? If not, send it.

Either way, you could send it again to remind them, reiterating at the start that they are out of order issuing a default while the account is in dispute.

Elsa x

[krysp]

Hi Elsa,

 

Cheers for the info.

 

Yes, I've sent LTSB the account in dispute letter on a couple of occasions but they've completly ignored them (no surprise there).

 

Still they went off recorded and have been filed for future reference.

[vint1954]

When you respond, reminding them of their abject failings, add:

 

I would remind you that while this alleged account remains in dispute, that you:

• May not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• Cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• Cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• Cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• Cannot sell the account.
  

[vint1954]

Just a quick post script, I realy think that we assume that our letters are being read by a sentient beings. From the responses that I have received, I am convinced that the letters are just part of the game they play, starting at Defcon6 going on to Defcon1.

 

However, come the day your paper trail is in place.

 

I have had some response, when escalating the issue as a complaint. But even then, they will not find against themselves.

[krysp]

I'll keep banging off my responses and the banks will keep churning out their threatening letters until one of us takes the other to court.

[Undercover-Elsa]

When they'll probably do their usual trick of backing off at the final hour

[vint1954]

I'll keep banging off my responses and the banks will keep churning out their threatening letters until one of us takes the other to court.

They will keep trying as Elsa says.

 

Try tinkering with the attached. Some bits will need removing or adding, according to your own circumstances.

 

xxxxxx 2009.

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I write regarding recent communication regarding the above account.

Further to my request under the above act, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account remains subject to a lawful serious dispute. On xxxxxxxx, by recorded delivery, I requested that you supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78, a copy of this request is enclosed. To date you have failed to comply with my request, supplying only a generic agreement which cannot be linked to any agreement which you claim that I have signed and a set of again unrelated terms and conditions. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I have to date only received terms and conditions from yourselves.

Contrary to your assertion, xxxxxxxx have not complied with the terms of CCA 1974 s78. The documents that you have supplied, do not comply with your duties to supply a “True Copy” of any agreement you claim to have been signed by me.

While this account remains in serious dispute, the relevant main points of the Law and OFT regulations while the account is in this state and xxxxxx remain in default are:

• You may not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• You cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• You cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• You cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• You cannot sell the account.
  

Despite you legal obligations, you have recently issued a Default Notice, contrary to the regulations contained within the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

What is a true copy:

In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

I also refer you to the information below.

1. A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

 

 

2. Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

 

2. The need for prescribed terms to be contained in the credit agreement is confirmed by the Author of the CCA1974 act, I quote ““As the draftsman of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I would like to thank Dr Richard Lawson for his interesting and well-argued article (30 August 2003) on Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2003] UKHL 40, [2003] 4 All ER 97.

 

Dr Lawson may be interested to know that I included the provision in question (section 127(3)) entirely on my own initiative. It seemed right to me that if the creditor company couldn’t be bothered to ensure that all the prescribed particulars were accurately included in the credit agreement it deserved to find it unenforceable, and that the court should not have power to relieve it from this penalty. Nobody queried this, and it went through Parliament without debate. I’m glad the House of Lords has now vindicated my reasoning and confirmed that nobody’s human rights were infringed.” - 167 Justice of the Peace (2003) 773.”

I am now granting to you a further 7 days to produce a copy of an executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. If you are insisting that the non enforceable document, that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

I look forward to your response.

[krysp]

Great document Vint, just what I'm looking for.

 

The paragraph immediately before the bullet points contains some x's - not sure what to put here, is it the bank's name?

[vint1954]

Great document Vint, just what I'm looking for.

 

The paragraph immediately before the bullet points contains some x's - not sure what to put here, is it the bank's name?

Thats it, just the banks name.

 

Add your own dates also.

[vint1954]

That letter is your final position until they come up with the goods. If they write again, if you feel like it, just send a note referring to the letter.

[krysp]

Received a call the other day from LTSB saying that they will be freezing my interest charges and accepting my vastly reduced payments from the CCCS on my DMP.

 

Has LTSB suddently seen the light and changed into an ethical bank (post DN of course), or have they realised that they have no chance of providing me with my CCA (requested once via CCA request and once by a soon to be expiring SAR) and are hoping that I don't challenge the

enforceability of the alleged debt?

[F_DCAs]

LTSB? Ethical? The concept is impossible. Cannot happen.

[angry cat]

You cannot teach an old dog new tricks...

[Crapstone]

Received a call the other day from LTSB saying that they will be freezing my interest charges and accepting my vastly reduced payments from the CCCS on my DMP.

 

Has LTSB suddently seen the light and changed into an ethical bank (post DN of course), or have they realised that they have no chance of providing me with my CCA (requested once via CCA request and once by a soon to be expiring SAR) and are hoping that I don't challenge the

enforceability of the alleged debt?

 

Did you ask them to put it in writing?. Make sure they do.. preferably in blood..

[krysp]

SAR'd Lloyds last month and I received a letter on Thursday stating that they will be complying with my request by the end of this month.

 

Unfortunately for LTSB, the SAR info is due on September 9th and I'm going to report them as they've had the statutory 40 days to comply and as far as I'm concerned, have made no attempt to adhere to their obligations.

 

I'd like to know which authorities are the most appropriate to complain to and if someone has a template complaint letter that I could adapt to my circumstances, I'd be very grateful.

 

Ta - krysp

[cerberusalert]

The ico https://www.ico.gov.uk/Global/contact_us.aspx Just say they haven't complied with your SAR.

[krysp]

Great, thanks.

 

Would you have thought it would make any difference if I laid on the 'emotional distress' being caused by LTSB's constant flouting of official regulation or should I keep stricly on topic?

[cerberusalert]

The ico are well aware of their tactics but you could say that LTSB's tardiness is preventing you from resolving an ongoing financial dispute.