Unlawful PCN for parking on almost non-existing DY lines? Please help..

[fsheehan]

Hi guys,

 

Just got a PCN for parking on an almost non-existing double yellow line last week in Leeds, around the University where I work. It was raining, gloomy and wet and I managed to park one wheel on shoddy double yellow lines which were hardly visible and I don't believe to have had T bars at the end.

 

I didn't know what I was given the ticket for at first because the cause was "01: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours." and I looked around and saw no signs of any parking restrictions. I took pictures of where my car was with a digital camera just in case.

 

Anyway, I proceeded with an online appeal and contested the fact that I didn't even park anywhere where there are restrictions or signs to that effect. I then got a letter back yesterday to say that the 01 code in fact meant that I parked on double yellow lines and it went on about lines clearly becoming "worn and faded" in varying degrees from time-to-time for various reasons. It then went on that however the lines were faded that they are still enforcable in the parking attendant, looking at the quality and state of the lines believes that despite minor imperfections and fading colour it is clear that they are and remain yellow lines. They then refused my appeal and asked to pay the discounted fee by 14 days of the letter or face the full charge. It then said that no further correspondence would be entered into unless a formal representation is received in response to a Notice to Owner.

 

I then went back to the spot this morning and looked where I parked and saw that there was indeed remnants of an existing, faded and non-continous double yellow lines which bent around the corner to the road where I was parked - and would have just gone under one wheel of my car. I did not see a T bar at the end; either that or it was completely faded!

 

BTW I learnt all this T-bar and faded regulation stuff from a brief read around on these forums which is really useful.

 

I'm really annoyed that I got this as I'm always careful where I park and really want to tell them(and the over eager parking attendant) to stick it where the sun don't shine!

 

Would someone please be able to advise me if I have good enough reason to contest the PCN? I'd love to be able to prove them wrong but don't really want to pay the full charge if I don't have to as I'm already skint as it is!

 

Any help or advice would be very much appreciated.

[lookinforinfo]

As I understand it, by gleaning information from different websites too, the yellow

lnes have to be continuous. If they are no longer visible in places because of

age or roadworks, they fail to comply with the stipulations in the law.

[bandit8450]

Yes but...DY lines a placed in areas where it is dangerous to park. Just because you have parked on DYL that are vague or washed out does not negate the fact that you maybe a dnager to other road users or pedestrians. Drivers who get tickets get them for a reason . You need to be aware at all times and responsible for where you leave your car..God help you if you leave it on washed out lines just because they are washed out and someone gets seriously injured beacuse of your car.

[Rob S]

What nonsense Bandit. If you look around you will see plenty of roads where double yellow lines have been painted, but to park there would not cause any danger. Local authorities have been placing such restrictions on some roads with no good reason other than as a means to raise revenue.

 

As to the lines on the road, they have to comply with the regulations ( I think its the Traffic Signs regulations or something similar). If they are not painted correctly, to the correct dimensions, or they are faded or gaps have appeared then you will have grounds for appeal. There also has to be a Traffic Regulation Order in place for the parking restrictions.

 

It might be worth your while taking a look here:-

 

Welcome to the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service

 

Parking FAQ & READ THIS FIRST ! - FightBack Forums

 

HTH.

[jobloggs]

The Statutory Instrument covering DY's are The tRaffic Signs Regulatiosn and General Directions 2002

 

DY's covered specifically by drawing 1018.1 interestingly item 4 clearly states there there are no permitted variants, so in my perosnal view if the lines are not solid, and of the correct dimensions then to htye do no texist in law and are uneforceable.

The ticket being talked about here i assume for parking on double yellows, if the ticket had been issued for dangerous parking then that may have been a different matter.

[bandit8450]

take responsibilty...you are all just trying to negate your responsibility...simple.

Rob S you need to stand back and look at the bigger picture mate. I bet you try and get out of everything.

[lookinforinfo]

Bandit-I have read and reread Fsheehans' original post. In it he admits that he is

always careful where he parks his car; that he did not see the yellow lines because they had faded away, and then he asked for help and advice.

 

At no time did he ask for infantile comments from those with no knowledge

of the law pertaining to road markings.

 

If you had taken the trouble to research the subject before wading in with

ill informed claptrap and gone to a government website such as this one-

 

Traffic Signs Manual

 

and then downloaded the pdf file relating to- "Traffic Signs manual chapter 5: Road

markings 2003" you would have found this at the end of the manual- "inadequately

signed restrictions are likely to be legally unenforceable"

As this forum was founded on the basis of informing us of the banks unlawful

application of charges, then most readers will see that this post reflects the same

aims.

It follows therefore that if the lines are faded beyond recognition, then it is the

Council who are breaking the law by trying to enforce that that is unenforceable.

The manual then carries on to explain the legalities concerning the yellow line and

how it must conform to the stipulations. Not only must it be continuous but it

should have T bars at either end, as well as being of a certain width. So I

suspect that not only will it probably fail on not being continuous, but in places

[though only one place is enough for a line to be unlawful] it will not conform to

the width regulations either.

[bandit8450]

You will be glad to know that Santa has my request for the "Traffic Signs manual " especially the special edition version which covers the width of the legality of hairs when split. Come on you are totally missing the point of my arguement, which is not in any manual or code book. It is simply that you must be responsible for your actions. The mere fact the starter of this thread knew there were lines there (and they must be there for a reason..hmmm is it a bit dangerous for me to park here? I see those lines but they are a bit faint) and didnt bother to consider the dangers. The lines werent faded beyond recognition coz he knew immediatly they were DYL!!!!You ' inthelooforinfo' are hiding behind text book geek speak because you have a lack of the grasp of seeing the bigger picture. In other words ill try and trick people into thinking im right by quoting from the saddest book Ive got. BOTTOM LINE I GOT A TICKET I DIDNT THINK BEFORE I PARKED MY CAR I MUST PAY THE COST..instead of trying to blame someone else...be a man and admit it..thats not in any book! Ill tell you something you are knackered morally if you park on DYL that are faded and you cant find a magic T bar but because your car is there and an accident is caused of a serious nature, no clap trap book quoting is gonna save you then from yourself and conscience...this is not directed at the original poster just 'inthelooforinfo' coz he needs a lesson in how the world works. This sight covers fantastic matters were we are genuinly hard done...parking tickets is adifferent matter...people just dont wanna pay up when they cock up.

[rogerebaker]

Hi guys,

 

Just got a PCN for parking on an almost non-existing double yellow line last week in Leeds, around the University where I work. It was raining, gloomy and wet and I managed to park one wheel on shoddy double yellow lines which were hardly visible and I don't believe to have had T bars at the end.

 

I didn't know what I was given the ticket for at first because the cause was "01: Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours." and I looked around and saw no signs of any parking restrictions. I took pictures of where my car was with a digital camera just in case.

 

Anyway, I proceeded with an online appeal and contested the fact that I didn't even park anywhere where there are restrictions or signs to that effect. I then got a letter back yesterday to say that the 01 code in fact meant that I parked on double yellow lines and it went on about lines clearly becoming "worn and faded" in varying degrees from time-to-time for various reasons. It then went on that however the lines were faded that they are still enforcable in the parking attendant, looking at the quality and state of the lines believes that despite minor imperfections and fading colour it is clear that they are and remain yellow lines. They then refused my appeal and asked to pay the discounted fee by 14 days of the letter or face the full charge. It then said that no further correspondence would be entered into unless a formal representation is received in response to a Notice to Owner.

 

I then went back to the spot this morning and looked where I parked and saw that there was indeed remnants of an existing, faded and non-continous double yellow lines which bent around the corner to the road where I was parked - and would have just gone under one wheel of my car. I did not see a T bar at the end; either that or it was completely faded!

 

BTW I learnt all this T-bar and faded regulation stuff from a brief read around on these forums which is really useful.

 

I'm really annoyed that I got this as I'm always careful where I park and really want to tell them(and the over eager parking attendant) to stick it where the sun don't shine!

 

Would someone please be able to advise me if I have good enough reason to contest the PCN? I'd love to be able to prove them wrong but don't really want to pay the full charge if I don't have to as I'm already skint as it is!

 

Any help or advice would be very much appreciated.

 

Contact Neal Heron at metric martyers (google will find it) hes been trying to get a parkling ticket in leeds for ages so he can challange it.

[lookinforinfo]

Bandit, if you spent less time sending pms advising people not to email you, and a bit more time reading and understanding what the op said you might

receive less criticism as I was not the first to point out that you had gone over the top.

 

Fsheehan did not see the yellow lines until after he had been advised by the

Council why he had been ticketed. They told him they were faded.It is difficult to spot faded yellow lines at times even when it is not gloomy and wet and bear in mind that there could well have been leaves covering the lines as well.

When he originally queried his fine, he did not mention the yellow lines, because he did not know they were there.

 

Look at the time scale. After he got the response from the Council-" I then went back to the spot this morning and looked where I parked and saw that there was indeed remnants of an existing, faded and non-continous double yellow lines which bent around the corner to the road where I was parked - and would have just gone under one wheel of my car. I did not see a T bar at the end; either that or it was completely faded".

 

If a 50mph speed limit sign is missing on a road that had been 70 mph, anyone

then caught by a speed camera would have the offence quashed because the

missing sign makes the charge unenforceable. And so it is with yellow lines. If they

are not visible then the fine must be revoked on appeal. There is no suggestion

that he parked in a dangerous spot so there appears little reason to become so

emotive.

You seem to agree that its ok to reclaim unlawful bank charges, yet you expect

the op to pay a parking fine even if it has been unlawfully applied.

[Rob S]

Parking enforcement is a 2 way street. The authorities have to follow the correct procedures to set up new restrictions and they have to comply with the Traffic Signs and General Directions precisely when they put the markings and signs up. Once up, they have to be maintained properly. If they fail to follow the TSGD to the letter, the restriction is illegal. No, "well the breaks are there because of roadworks", it is not negotiable. When the markings are legal, then the local authorities will have the high ground in every respect. Those who complain about getting tickets when the parking restrictions have been legally put in place will be in no position to argue.

 

But while the authorities keep on trying to bully and bluster the public when they know full well they have failed to comply with statute, people will stand up and fight them, and rightly so.

 

The local authorities are no different from the banks and other financial institutions. They have to abide by the law of the land. They deserve to be taken to task if they don't. Given the growing number of restrictions being placed on the roads (often with very little to justify the new restriction) the public, and in particular the motoring public, have had enough of being seen as a cash cow for the authorities and they are starting to fight back.

[Number6]

Parking enforcement is a 2 way street. The authorities have to follow the correct procedures to set up new restrictions and they have to comply with the Traffic Signs and General Directions precisely when they put the markings and signs up. Once up, they have to be maintained properly. If they fail to follow the TSGD to the letter, the restriction is illegal. No, "well the breaks are there because of roadworks", it is not negotiable. When the markings are legal, then the local authorities will have the high ground in every respect. Those who complain about getting tickets when the parking restrictions have been legally put in place will be in no position to argue.

 

But while the authotities keep on trying to bully and bluster the public when they know full well they have failed to comply with statute, people will stand up and fight them, and rightly so.

 

The local authorities are no different from the banks and other financial institutions. They have to abide by the law of the land. They deserve to be taken to task if they don't. Given the growing number of restrictions being placed on the roads (often with very little to justify the new restriction) the public, and in particular the motoring public, have had enough of being seen as a cash cow for the authorities and they are starting to fight back.

 

Hear, hear!!

 

Pete

[simon11]

I have just won a case against Lancashire county council for parking on faded yellow lines.

 

 

I did not win it on the T-bar regulation though. The adjudicator was a judge from another area. I won it on the fact that all the lines in this area were in such poor condition that they could be assumed not to be in force. Also this particular road had been blocked off for some time.

He told me that the T-bar thing is now old-hat. This no longer remains a reason to cancel the ticket.

I did however have as evidence pictures of police cars and dog wardens also parked by these lines.

Also since 2003 there does not have to be any sign indicating parking restrictions. Double yellow lines suffice.

It is getting harder and harder to get a ticket cancelled. I think the fact that I had pictures of Police dog handlers parking here may just have done the trick. Also I had evidence that the Council are going to re-paint them as they were in such poor condition.

Best of luck with your case you might as well give it a go but don't hold your breath for a result.

 

I have just seen the date of this post! I don't know how I picked this up?