So called-help for people on sickness benefits to address barriers to work

[osdset]

"People on sickness benefits will be required to have regular meetings with doctors, occupational health nurses and therapists to help them address their barriers to work – or face losing their benefits,” the Department for Work and Pensions announced yesterday.

 

I bet these HCP's will be employed by ATOS.

 

Story http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/

[45002]

It will Cost too much too run anyway,the pilot scheme is been funded by EU.

 

A lot of disabled people will need on going support while they are working full time or part time,that's if they get any jobs in the 1st place !

 

After they get disabled people off ESA and into work,your be on your own with NO help at all.....

Edited July 9, 2013 by 45002

[Nystagmite]

One of my barriers is other peoples ignorance. How will that be addressed?

[fedupandold]

 

Their doctors will say you’re not sick: The DWP’s new policy is another

sign of disrespect to PROPER health professionals across the UK; their diagnoses

aren’t good enough for the Department. It’s bringing its own people in, to

pretend more sick people are actually healthy, no doubt.

 

“People on sickness benefits will be required to have regular meetings

with doctors, occupational health nurses and therapists to help them address

their barriers to work – or face losing their benefits,” the Department for Work

and Pensions announced yesterday.

 

“Around 3,000 people on Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) who have

been assessed as being able to work in the future will have regular appointments

with healthcare professionals as a condition of receiving their benefit. The

meetings will focus on helping claimants to move closer to being able to get a

job,” the DWP press release states.

This is all very well, but has it not occurred to DWP officials that

perhaps a person who is off work because of illness may already be involved

in meetings with healthcare professionals? What do DWP officials think its people can do, that these specialists – who are experts in their field – cannot?

 

That report is far too biased. Since when was ESA ever awarded because of a diagnosis? We all know that ESA is awarded if you are able to gain enough points from the descriptors given which imitate the various physical and mental skills that are required in the modern workplace.

 

The author has completely lost track of what ATOS are there for. They are not medics but 'disability assessors' qualified in disability medicine. The GP or Consultant is not qualified to give an authorative opinion on whether someone is able to carry out some level of work based skill.

 

It's simple each to there own - yes the medical profession are there to treat and deal with an illness, ATOS are there to assess, given that illness, how serious your illness is by reference to the workplace and how long it is likely to be before you should be looking at going back to work.

 

ATOS will not give an opinion on how a particular illness should be treated or managed, so why should a GP/Consultant be anymore qualified to assess the ability to carry out a work based function?

 

Surely that is why the Permitted Work scheme is there.

 

I'm in the Support Group and have been since late 2009, yet I know full well that with a little effort on my part I could do some work that would support me financially.

I choose not to do that work.

But at the same time I picked up enough points in the ESA assessments I have had to qualify me for the group I am in.

 

Being sick does not always mean that you are written off and unable to find something that could generate an income.

[45002]

 

That report is far too biased. Since when was ESA ever awarded because of a diagnosis? We all know that ESA is awarded if you are able to gain enough points from the descriptors given which imitate the various physical and mental skills that are required in the modern workplace.

 

The author has completely lost track of what ATOS are there for. They are not medics but 'disability assessors' qualified in disability medicine. The GP or Consultant is not qualified to give an authorative opinion on whether someone is able to carry out some level of work based skill.

 

It's simple each to there own - yes the medical profession are there to treat and deal with an illness, ATOS are there to assess, given that illness, how serious your illness is by reference to the workplace and how long it is likely to be before you should be looking at going back to work.

 

ATOS will not give an opinion on how a particular illness should be treated or managed, so why should a GP/Consultant be anymore qualified to assess the ability to carry out a work based function?

 

Surely that is why the Permitted Work scheme is there.

 

I'm in the Support Group and have been since late 2009, yet I know full well that with a little effort on my part I could do some work that would support me financially.

I choose not to do that work.

 

But at the same time I picked up enough points in the ESA assessments I have had to qualify me for the group I am in.

 

Being sick does not always mean that you are written off and unable to find something that could generate an income.

 

 

.................

[osdset]

That report is far too biased. Since when was ESA ever awarded because of a diagnosis? We all know that ESA is awarded if you are able to gain enough points from the descriptors given which imitate the various physical and mental skills that are required in the modern workplace.

 

Can you pick up and move a large light object like an empty cardboard box? Obviously a skill in demand in the modern workplace.

 

The author has completely lost track of what ATOS are there for. They are not medics but 'disability assessors' qualified in disability medicine. The GP or Consultant is not qualified to give an authorative opinion on whether someone is able to carry out some level of work based skill.

 

According to who? ATOS have used midwifes in the past as HCP's, since when is a midwife qualified in disability assessments? There is no such thing as 'disability medicine'.

[Nystagmite]

Can you pick up and move a large light object like an empty cardboard box? Obviously a skill in demand in the modern workplace.

 

Any job advert I've seen mentioning lifting, always asks if you can carry loads of a certain weight, etc. I know with my dad's job, he does (or did) have to carry heavy loads.

[caro]

 

That report is far too biased. Since when was ESA ever awarded because of a diagnosis? We all know that ESA is awarded if you are able to gain enough points from the descriptors given which imitate the various physical and mental skills that are required in the modern workplace.

 

The author has completely lost track of what ATOS are there for. They are not medics but 'disability assessors' qualified in disability medicine. The GP or Consultant is not qualified to give an authorative opinion on whether someone is able to carry out some level of work based skill.

 

It's simple each to there own - yes the medical profession are there to treat and deal with an illness, ATOS are there to assess, given that illness, how serious your illness is by reference to the workplace and how long it is likely to be before you should be looking at going back to work.

 

ATOS will not give an opinion on how a particular illness should be treated or managed, so why should a GP/Consultant be anymore qualified to assess the ability to carry out a work based function?

 

Surely that is why the Permitted Work scheme is there.

 

I'm in the Support Group and have been since late 2009, yet I know full well that with a little effort on my part I could do some work that would support me financially.

I choose not to do that work.

But at the same time I picked up enough points in the ESA assessments I have had to qualify me for the group I am in.

 

Being sick does not always mean that you are written off and unable to find something that could generate an income.

 

If you are capable of work why did you claim these benefits? That's utterly disgraceful and not something that this site condones.

[fedupandold]

If you are capable of work why did you claim these benefits? That's utterly disgraceful and not something that this site condones.

 

 

 

Cannot mobilise more than 50 meters on level ground without stopping in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion

15 points + Support Group descriptor

Cannot,for the majority of the time, remain at a work station, standing unassisted by another person (even if free to move around) for more than 30 minutes, before needing to move away in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion.

9 points

At least once a week, has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness resulting in significantly disrupted awareness or concentration.

15 points

Why? Based on the criteria of ESA I am entitled to make a claim. I was assessed and was found to qualify for 39 points and a Support Group descriptor.

Also I am entitled to claim DLA and have been found to pass the criteria of HRM & MRC.

Why are you suggesting that I am not entitled to claim ESA? Everyone that is able to pass the relevant criteria, gaining at least 15 points will be awarded the benefit. Are you in some way suggesting that my claim is not genuine?

I was simply pointing out that despite qualifying for ESA, I still feel that I could do some work, maybe a desk based job.

I doubt very much that every ESA claimant, if they were honest enough and put their mind to it, could not carry out some level of paid work. Is that not the reason that Permitted Work is there?

 

The assessment for ESA has nothing to do with how sick or ill you are. You are tested against a set of descriptors. If you pass enough of those descriptors and gain at least 15 points an ESA award will be given.

 

It is entirely possible that you can be extremely ill/sick, yet not qualify for ESA as you do not 'fit' enough boxes and gain enough points. Yet you can be physically & mentally fine apart from having a difficulty in mobilising which will see you gain 15 points and be placed in the Support Group. The inability to mobilise could well arise out of a long standing disability and have nothing whatsoever to do with being sick or ill.

Edited July 10, 2013 by fedupandold

[tomtom256]

Why? Based on the criteria of ESA I am entitled to make a claim. I was assessed and was found to qualify for 39 points and a Support Group descriptor.

Also I am entitled to claim DLA and have been found to pass the criteria of HRM & MRC.

Why are you suggesting that I am not entitled to claim ESA? Everyone that is able to pass the relevant criteria, gaining at least 15 points will be awarded the benefit. Are you in some way suggesting that my claim is not genuine?

I was simply pointing out that despite qualifying for ESA, I still feel that I could do some work, maybe a desk based job.

I doubt very much that every ESA claimant, if they were honest enough and put their mind to it, could not carry out some level of paid work. Is that not the reason that Permitted Work is there?

 

The assessment for ESA has nothing to do with how sick or ill you are. You are tested against a set of descriptors. If you pass enough of those descriptors and gain at least 15 points an ESA award will be given.

 

It is entirely possible that you can be extremely ill/sick, yet not qualify for ESA as you do not 'fit' enough boxes and gain enough points. Yet you can be physically & mentally fine apart from having a difficulty in mobilising which will see you gain 15 points and be placed in the Support Group. The inability to mobilise could well arise out of a long standing disability and have nothing whatsoever to do with being sick or ill.

 

And this type of person is the reason why we have the Welfare Reform Act that is causing so many issues for the genuine sick that are unable to work. I applaud you for a job well done!

[osdset]

At least once a week, has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness resulting in significantly disrupted awareness or concentration.

15 points

I was simply pointing out that despite qualifying for ESA, I still feel that I could do some work, maybe a desk based job.

And who exactly will employ someone prone to episodes of lost or altered consciousness? A person under those circumstances represents a danger to themselves and their work colleagues.

 

The article is about the DWP imposing conditionality on claimants that have been found to have LCFW. A gradual return to the workplace should and must be the decision of the claimant, not a gang of privately employed quack HCP's using pester power to brow beat genuine claimants into submission.

 

Not content with wasting huge amounts of tax payers money on a not-fit-for-purpose assessment and the inevitable appeals that follow, the government now are piloting (with the aid of EU cash) yet another quango. Failure to engage means claimants face losing benefits, they can't be mandated onto the Work Programme so the DWP will get them another way.

[fedupandold]

And this type of person is the reason why we have the Welfare Reform Act that is causing so many issues for the genuine sick that are unable to work. I applaud you for a job well done!

 

The Welfare Reform Act was introduced to regulate the Welfare State in a more positive and cost effective way.

Why are you suggesting that the genuine sick are unable to work?

I agree there will be many that can't work due to illness but put that aside there are many, myself included, that are ill/sick (as defined by the Welfare Reform Act) that can work.

Not everyone that claims ESA is incapable of doing some level of paid work.

 

Are you suggesting that those that are awarded ESA must keep quiet about the fact that they could possibly work as well?

 

Until a better system of sifting out those that are ill AND cannot work in any capacity is devised, we are stuck with the current system that throws up these peculiar results. Testing people by reference to a set of criteria will never be able to determine whether they are sick AND unable to work.

 

Let's be serious, just on the mobilising criteria alone, you will be awarded ESA Support Group, yet it certainly would not stop someone working in a job that does not require any form of mobilising. I can think of many jobs that don't need you to be able to mobilise. Even if there was a job that did, all you need do to get round the problem is acquire an electric wheelchair.

 

I would add, as I have mentioned earlier, those that are only able to use an electric wheelchair (cannot self propel a manual one) and quite rightly claim DLA, find themselves now in a situation that they can also claim ESA and be awarded the Support Group! Since when was a physical disability also an illness?

And don't say that it isn't happening. Many that I know that are in a local support group for wheelchair users are now for the first time able to claim ESA and be awarded it.

Edited July 10, 2013 by fedupandold

[sadone]

The Welfare Reform Act was introduced to regulate the Welfare State in a more positive and cost effective way.

 

Whahhhhhhh! Best laugh I've had all week.

[fedupandold]

And who exactly will employ someone prone to episodes of lost or altered consciousness? A person under those circumstances represents a danger to themselves and their work colleagues.

The article is about the DWP imposing conditionality on claimants that have been found to have LCFW. A gradual return to the workplace should and must be the decision of the claimant, not a gang of privately employed quack HCP's using pester power to brow beat genuine claimants into submission.

 

Not content with wasting huge amounts of tax payers money on a not-fit-for-purpose assessment and the inevitable appeals that follow, the government now are piloting (with the aid of EU cash) yet another quango. Failure to engage means claimants face losing benefits, they can't be mandated onto the Work Programme so the DWP will get them another way.

 

Being a Type 1 Insulin dependent Diabetic, it is a regular occurrence. I have yet to meet any employer that would not accept this. Besides which it is covered under the DDA.

 

And people at large are expected to believe that all ESA awardees that are in the Work Group, will volunteer and tell that DWP that they are ready to try to get back into the workplace? Some will, many won't. Much like the old IB system - 'If they don't check up on me - I'm not telling them'.

 

As for how this will operate I'm not to bothered just as long as something along these lines is carried out. I'm sorry but you must be a very forgiving soul to think that all ESA claimants will be that honest.

[fedupandold]

Whahhhhhhh! Best laugh I've had all week.

 

Yes I agree - it has made it easier for many to claim whereas before they couldn't!

[sadone]

Sorry, but I'm beginning to sense a Troll here.

[osdset]

And people at large are expected to believe that all ESA awardees that are in the Work Group, will volunteer and tell that DWP that they are ready to try to get back into the workplace? Some will, many won't. Much like the old IB system - 'If they don't check up on me - I'm not telling them'.

It's s shame no one is checking up on you, by your own admission you could work but choose not to, talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

[Nystagmite]

And who exactly will employ someone prone to episodes of lost or altered consciousness? A person under those circumstances represents a danger to themselves and their work colleagues.

 

9 years ago, my dad had a bit of an episode at work where he just seemed to fall down a set of stairs and due to his injuries and no-one knowing what was wrong, he was taken to hospital where he stayed for 9 days where they did tests on his heart and a few other bits. He was told by his then boss not to come back until his doctor says so because where they have no idea what's wrong and they can't guarantee his safety.

 

He went back to work 2 months later, had another episode at home (no falling this time) and was told that he has epilepsy. Thankfully for him, the doctors have managed to fully control this.

 

fedupandold is a troll. Wondered that for a while and they've just confirmed this.

 

In theory, I could probably work. But I'm too unpredictable. Some days I could do 8 hours work; but the next day, I couldn't repeat that and might not even be able to go into work. My disabilities mean that a lot of every day noises are painful, which makes working difficult and then there's my issues with interacting with people.

[sadone]

It's s shame no one is checking up on you, by your own admission you could work but choose not to, talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

 

Oh take no heed. I think this is probably just another board troll under a different name trying to stir it.

[45002]

I agree there will be many that can't work due to illness but put that aside there are many, myself included, that are ill/sick

 

But you have admitted you could do some work,but don't want to !

 

Not everyone that claims ESA is incapable of doing some level of paid work.

 

.

Do some work then,instead of bragging how your playing the system !

 

Being a Type 1 Insulin dependent Diabetic, it is a regular occurrence.

 

Big Deal....

 

One of my neighbour is Type 1 Insulin dependent Diabetic,drives to work everyday and works approx 50 hours a week...

 

'If they don't check up on me - I'm not telling them'.

 

Well that's true in your case !

 

ESA claimants will be that honest.

 

Not true in your case !

 

The Welfare Reform Act was introduced to regulate the Welfare State in a more positive and cost effective way.

 

Whahhhhhhh! Best laugh I've had all week.

 

I had to pick myself up off the floor after reading that comment ....

 

 

 

I'm in the Support Group and have been since late 2009, yet I know full well that with a little effort on my part I could do some work that would support me financially.

I choose not to do that work.

.

 

I do hope the DWP catch up with you then and get you working,after comments like that in a public forum.

 

As far as im concerned your just defrauding the system and deserve to loose All you benefits

Edited July 10, 2013 by 45002

[Asleep In Wonder]

Mandatory DWP health advice for ESAclaimants

 

This news terrifies me. Of course, it's intended to terrify those of us who, through no fault of our own are currently unable to work with any kind of realistic, enduring capacity.

 

I have Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and have never, even during the many years I managed to work full time, been able to access effective treatment for the severe problems I have from this condition.

 

I have some physical problems too, some of which are the known and often sadly inevitable outcomes for those with a lifetime of severe distress. I have learned to manage these with the help of consultants and my GP. One condition has been life threatening at times. It doesn't take much distress to set these physical problems off, but I manage them well.

 

I have received IB and DLA for several years and despite so many attempts to return to work, I have not been able to stay well enough for long enough to continue. It took seven months to get a DWP reconsideration to place me in the Support Group from a decision to migrate me to the WRAG without face to face assessment. This reconsideration was based on my mental health problem, not the invasive cancer I was diagnosed with in January or the chemotherapy I am currently receiving. I sometimes wonder why I am bothering with the cancer treatment when my most severe problem is my mental health. What am I being cured of cancer for? To stay alive, struggling to find help that doesn't exist,to be constantly stricken with fear that I will end up homeless and dead?

 

Despite my problems, I still scan the papers every day and look online for jobs that I might be able to cope with in the long term. All are low level, low pay, a million miles away from my previous professional occupation, I don't care about the level. But this is all to no avail. The system is so rigid that any activity is seen as proof that I am underserving of any benefits and should be in full time work without any support. When well enough and able, I also liaise with the DEA at my local Jobcentre+. He is a good person, skilled and trying to do a job that he has not been given the resources to do properly. His frustration at the system almost matches mine.

 

I need to see an actual trauma specialist. There is no one qualified in this speciality in my area that my GP can refer me to under NHS rules. Those with mental health issues do not have the same right as those with physical conditions to be referred out of their own NHS area for suitable treatment.

 

Over the many years I have been trying desperately to get help, I have been pushed out to voluntary organisations using trainee counsellors for therapy, referred to Positive Step (an ATOS company) for generic, group CBT which I found not only useless, but patronising, reductive and offensive. Private counselling is patchy in quality and so far has proved expensive, sometimes exploitative and I can no longer access it since the benefit cuts have come into force.

 

I once had to borrow a significant amount of money to see a psychiatrist privately when local referrals were only for individuals in severe crisis. I was put through individual CBT and given drugs that resulted in three suicide attempts. Anti-depressant drugs leave me actively suicidal so I cannot and will not take them again. I have seen one CPN in 10 years, who although friendly and kind, could find nothing in the system she could offer that would realistically help me.

 

Just how is this new measure from the DWP intended to do anything other than push an already fragile and isolated individual without friends or family into taking the final step?

 

Since initial, severe trauma in early life, I have been further traumatised throughout my life, this is a common outcome of CPTSD. Sometimes this trauma has been at the hands of licenced practitioners within the NHS and trainee counsellors in the voluntary sector. One specialist charity that provided counselling for those who survived this type of trauma, used a counsellor who caused me untold damage because she was unable to cope with the level of trauma I had experienced and became verbally aggressive to me as her sole method of assuaging her lack of skill and experience. I have also attended a community charity running a drop in centre. For a few months this was very helpful, then the cracks appeared, revealing an unaccountable organisation that is rife with politics, bullying and some staff members who behave like hybrid primary school classroom assistants/prison wardens. It was not a safe environment.

 

There is a very unhealthy trend in the mental health industry that appears to confuse mental health with learning disability. As long as a person remains without insight into their condition and stays conditionally compliant, necking the drugs without question, trudging along to unproven therapies, then one can access limited "help" that is based on a simplistic one size fits all approach. Some gain benefit from this, many do not.

 

I would like to know how to recover so that I can work. I am constantly seeking this help, but sadly, to date, to no avail. I do not understand how this new DWP initiative could help me in any way. The severe stress I endured in the two year run up to my IB/ESA reassessment left me self harming and at the brink of suicide. I am still reeling from the process. How will this new initiative be any different?

 

A short while ago, when in crisis, I again asked my GP for an appropriate referral and told her that I could not cope any longer with the damage that the amateurish trainee counsellors have caused. I needed real help from someone who was fully qualified and able to help me. I could not attend yet another charity or CBT based therapy. The cost has been too great to my well being and she wholly agreed that it is better for me to avoid further trauma, but there was nothing else available. My GP stated that she didn't want me dropped into the "system" where I would become lost and at risk of further damage due to being batted around like a ball between services that are not designed to help those in my position. My GP is insightful and realistic. She knows how hard I have tried to recover. She knows me.

 

Those who will carry out these ESA advice sessions do not know me and they will have no need to if the ATOS run assessment process is anything to go by. All the DWP will be able to "suggest" will be CBT (doesn't work for me) exercise (great for an agoraphobic who often cannot wash or dress for days because she cannot touch her own body) or drugs (which leave me actively suicidal) Of course, the final offer of help will be benefit sanctions, which will leave me homeless. Just pulling my socks up and going out for some fresh air does not help me. Nor does "just getting a job" or "thinking myself well" because no matter how hard I try, my condition overwhelms me each time and leaves me useless. Fear will not cure me.

 

At my last contact with the Positive Step assessor, she admitted to me that "unfortunately" I had too much insight into my condition and knew too much about CBT for it to help me. What kind of admission is this? For years I struggled to get a diagnosis, I got one, learned all I could about it (I am still learning) and took all the steps I have been able, to try and make some kind of sustainable recovery. I am willing to try anything that has been proven to work for people with my degree and type of trauma, but I am not willing to expose myself to more trauma at the hands of those tasked with providing help without integrity or qualification.

 

This new scheme will not provide real help. It will cause those with mental health and physical health conditions more harm and result in more fear, misery and poverty.

 

I have never written about myself on the internet before. But reading of this new pilot has so incensed me that I felt compelled to get my experiences down somewhere to state what the reality is for me and so many others who are in a similar position.

[Nystagmite]

There is a very unhealthy trend in the mental health industry that appears to confuse mental health with learning disability.

 

It also happens the other way around too - I have a learning disability and learning disability services won't touch me because I'm too high functioning. (in other words, I can talk) We're seen by social services mental health team, yet, we don't all have mental health problems.

 

Some of us then develop mental health problems because of the lack of help - no-one is willing to help us.

 

Welcome to the forum and well done o talking about your problems. It's not easy.

[Asleep In Wonder]

Hi Nystagmite,

 

Thank you for the welcome and your reply. I am remiss in not considering that those with learning disabilities get lumped in with those who have mental health issues. I hadn't thought of it that way before. The whole system is failing everyone to greater or lesser degree I think, but particularly those who do not fit neatly into the tight and ill conceived little boxes available for classification.

 

Mental illness, learning disability and psychiatric injury are very complex in every single case. We, at the very least deserve basic services that recognise this and help us to fulfil our potential. It is a crime that so many will live their lives without a chance of ever getting near this aim

 

I too have experienced the "you can talk, you don't need help" response. It leaves a person floundering and desperate. There is simply no answer to anyone who spouts such rubbish at us. There is nowhere to turn.

 

I think this homogenising of different groups of individuals happens too often and results in those in need, missing out badly, and in some cases real harm is caused. Even if harm is avoided, the frustration one experiences trying to get help and to endlessly explain your life to those who have had their hands tied by targets, budgets and ideological creed, is immense and exhausting.

 

You are so right, it is not easy to talk about personal problems, the vulnerability one is left with when one has done so can be very stressful.

 

I hope you are soon able to access the right kind of help from kind people who will listen to you.

[worried33]

link here, as as the first link is just to a home page.

 

http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/doubletalking-dwps-new-assault-on-the-sick/

[jackieandwayne]

Well done for posting up about this dreadful disorder - I suffer from the smaller type, just PTSD! And that's bad enough.

 

I've been very fortunate, the mental health services in Dorset seem to be very good. I've been helped a lot by one to one sessions with a High Intensity Practitioner, but I do know as she told me, her type are very few and far between, I think there is one other in Dorset. Its sort of been CBT, but with a lot more talking about what made me ill in the first place, Whatever it is she does, she does it well.

 

Having said that, I've been seeing her for three years now, have had to accept that I will not recover fully, and I understand everything you posted up!

 

If I have to go to one of these advisors the likely outcome will be violence - hence, why I'm not working in the first place! It only needs my stupid brain to take exception to something someone says, and everything flips, all hell can let loose because the brain thinks I'm being threatened, no matter what I try and say to it to convince it otherwise! I bet you completely understand that one don't you?

 

I hope you get the help you need. And that neither you or I gets called to see one of these idiots.