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need help to write a submission to tribunal appeal wrag to support group - ** PUT IN SUPPORT GROUP BEFORE TRIBUNAL **


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hi there, i am in the process of appealing ESA having been placed in wrag group, when i meet the descriptors for the support group.

i have and appeal tribunal date set for next month and have received the appeal papers.

There are many inconsistences in the bundle and i need to send my submission in ahead of attending my tribunal.

I have additional medical reports to send to support me being in the support group.

 

Hopefully if i can get the information across properly the decision will be overturned, and i will not need to attend.

 

It feels like i will be saying the same thing over and over , it has been ignored in my original ESA form, and in my appeal letter- so not sure how else to address this without saying the same things all over again.

 

I have never had a medical, but there are medical reports included in my tribunal bundle- which have been written on the basis of my ESA form- yet ignore my statements of difficulties and no attempt has been made to date to contact any of my consultants or GP to validate my statements , yet they have been discounted .

 

i have cognitive difficulties amongst my problems and am finding it very hard to find a way of writing my submission.- im getting overwhelmed trying to find a way of stucturing my submission and wonder if there is a template anywhere that i could use?

 

i understand it should be concise, but i dont know how to write it

can anyone help me please ?

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You need to explain what descriptor(s) for the support group you meet and why. For example, "I am unable to moblise more than 50 meters. I have arthritis in my hands and shoulders. If I try to mobilise, I can only do this for 10 meters before it becomes painful. I am then unable to use my arms for the rest of the day because of how painful mobilising is."

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Hello there.

 

In case it helps you to formulate a submission, here is a link to the forum stikky on appeals and tribunals. It's based on my own tribunal a few years back, but it's worked for people here.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?251737-Appealing-or-going-to-a-Tribunal-Some-useful-information

 

My best, HB

 

Edit: link added, sorry I forgot it.

Edited by honeybee13
Adding link.
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Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Yes, follow HB's sticky, then if you like, post what you've written (without identifiers) and we'll be happy to take a look.

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office ~ Aesop

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Yes, follow HB's sticky, then if you like, post what you've written (without identifiers) and we'll be happy to take a look

 

thankyou...got a DLA cock up to sort out first then i will get back to the ESA submission and post it

thank you ..all this is exhausting

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You need to explain what descriptor(s) for the support group you meet and why. For example, "I am unable to moblise more than 50 meters. I have arthritis in my hands and shoulders. If I try to mobilise, I can only do this for 10 meters before it becomes painful. I am then unable to use my arms for the rest of the day because of how painful mobilising is."

It states in my HCP report, I am unlikely to mobilise in a manual wheelchair alone without help, was still placed in Wrag, argued this fact at Tribunal, still lost that argument but placed in Support Group on another descriptor, so not sure they are taking upper body into consideration for mobilising when deciding??? going on my experience any way...

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Thank you for your support so far.

i am now going through my appeal bundle and would help clarifying a couple of things ..

 

 

  1. I have been placed in the WRAG group and that is what i am appealing , so theresfore is this correct? .. i have been deemed to be found to have limited capibility for work but NOT limited capability for work related activity?..- the jargon confuses me
  2. my bundle, lists in the schedule of evidence Pages 45-47"decision makers score sheet"... the documents under these page numbers does not look like a score sheet ..it is a ESA85A ( wriiten by a HCP i assume based on my notes and i have NEVER had a medical .

Details of the ESA85A: There is no scoring indicated ,the advice is that "this person meets the criteria for having limited capability for work", ...

Should scoring be evident?

Am i at a disadvantage for not knowing my score when appealing the decision for WRAG as opposed to Support group?

 

many thanks

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I have been placed in the WRAG group and that is what i am appealing , so theresfore is this correct? .. i have been deemed to be found to have limited capibility for work but NOT limited capability for work related activity?..- the jargon confuses me

 

This is correct. Limited capability for work means you go into WRAG and limited capability for work related activity is the support group.

 

I've not seen an ESA85a to answer your last question. But I know people who have said their ESA85a (I think) scored them x amount of points on a descriptor.

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Look for clues in the atos medical report...In mine it said that i lost track of the interview at some stage and appeared restless and unresponsive..We used this bit in our appeal to the tribunal . Go through the report with a fine tooth-comb and see if there is anything to help you..

Good luck..

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i havent had a ATOS medical.. the ESA85A was written using "the available evidence fromthe ESA50 and consulant report".

 

the justifcation of advice, lists a whole load of descriptors that they state i dont meet , ( despite submitted medical evidence ) that i need to challenge.. so its hard to even see why they thought i met Limited capability for work !!

the only thing i can see is this ....

"the available evidence suggests that the client has a significant level of disability due to CFS, MS ( incorrect conditions btw.. sigh!), such that they would have limited capability for work. likely to satisfy upper and lower limb threshold"

 

what do they mean by "likely to satisfy upper and lower limb threshold"... need to understand what they agree i meet , before i argue the descriptors that they have not accepted on my evidence so far.

with no score sheet its hard to tell

Edited by kahlo
CLARITY
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:kahlo:

 

Bit of background. In an increasingly desperate effort to beat their backlogs Atos n Jobcentreplus seem to get worse. Whenever possible, dispense with interviews and lose the medical evidence. Sling claimants an award with the work related activity component and hope they'll be so grateful to have 'passed' they won't think to challenge for the support component. And in a bit more corner cutting we'll dispense with scores. Saves time and makes it harder for claimants to argue.

 

An ESA85/85A isn't scored but (in theory) decision makers should compile a scoresheet from the report for a work related activity component that's based on points. 'likely to satisfy upper and lower limb threshhold'; impaired function cos of fatigue. :???:

 

Lots of us prepare submissions on blank sheets of A4 or word docs headed up with the applicable descriptors, one per sheet, then write paragraphs to explain the problem, the cause, and what happens when we try to do whatever. For example, my walking is very limited cos of chronic fatigue and a prolapsed disc. After seeing the doctor I have to sit in the waiting room for n minutes before I can walk back to the car. Use the medical evidence to support your assertions and show where Atos got it wrong.

 

:honeybee13:'s sticky's an excellent guide to an appeal submission and I've used it for a partially upheld complaint against Atos as well. But there's no one correct way to write up a submission and I'm thinking your ESA85A may be a bit short on bullet points to dispute. This submission may be easier divided into sections based on the descriptors. If so, start each one with why you meet the descriptor, then rebut what Atos have written about it. Use whichever format feels right for you.

Best wishes, good luck with the :typing:, Margaret.

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:kahlo:

 

Bit of background. In an increasingly desperate effort to beat their backlogs Atos n Jobcentreplus seem to get worse. Whenever possible, dispense with interviews and lose the medical evidence. Sling claimants an award with the work related activity component and hope they'll be so grateful to have 'passed' they won't think to challenge for the support component. And in a bit more corner cutting we'll dispense with scores. Saves time and makes it harder for claimants to argue.

.

It certainly feels that this is what is hapening!

An ESA85/85A isn't scored but (in theory) decision makers should compile a scoresheet from the report for a work related activity component that's based on points. 'likely to satisfy upper and lower limb threshhold'; impaired function cos of fatigue. :???:

.

 

what do they mean by 'likely to satisfy upper and lower limb threshhold' though???

That they believe i would have difficulties with activities usingmy upper and lower limbs or that i havent:???: I have MS and a degenerative spinal condition( that they seem to have cured me off):smile:, I experience MS fatigue but i do not have CFS and Mobility is one of at least three support descriptors i meet.

 

Lots of us prepare submissions on blank sheets of A4 or word docs headed up with the applicable descriptors, one per sheet, then write paragraphs to explain the problem, the cause, and what happens when we try to do whatever.

 

Thank you Margaret, that is really helpful..as i have great difficulty with concentration and cognitive impairment , this suggestion will help me focus.

 

As I have already done this in the written additional information I submitted with my for my ESA50 and then again for the appeal can I reference that documentation again so as not to repeat myself???.. i read that a submission should be succinct and approx 2 A4 pages and i will struggle to keep to that if i dont.

 

Also, my more recent DLA application, explains things much better , can i attach extracts of that?

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:kahlo:

 

Now you've confirmed one of your diagnoses, from my very limited knowledge of multiple sclerosis, I'm guessing Atos've acknowledged impaired limb function, but tis only a guess. You can, of course, use their inability to record your diagnoses correctly to discredit the report. :-)

 

Reference/use anything you like so long as it's relevant to your cause. Personally I tend to incorporate previous info into a tribunal submission but they're are as varied as the appellants who write them. Perfect world? Tribunal submissions fit neatly onto two sides of A4. Real world? As succinct as poss, without waffling. Once you've done the prep you'll probably find some of it can be précised but don't leave out anything important.

 

Just reread your first post. If you can get to your doctor and keep hospital appointments don't even consider not fronting to your tribunal panel. Their preferred evidence is oral evidence from the appellant, and it's reflected in the stats.

 

Have a cheery :panda:, Margaret.

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Sorry a couple more questions ( blush) the answers to which may help me further whilst i try and write this

 

do the tribunal still read all the papers in the tribunal bundle when you send a submission or does the submission stand alone?

 

when cross referencing the tribunal papers would you mark the original tribunal bundle -- and send a copy of marked bundle in with your submission , to replace their copy ?

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Hi. This is how I would tackle your submission - unless you have found something you can point to and say 'this reasoning is wrong' forget what it says in the appeal bundle, it sounds like there isn't enough in there to question. Start from scratch. Do a brief description and history of your conditions, then go through both the wrag and support group descriptors,choosing the ones that apply to you and writing about why, giving examples from your day to day life. Also write a paragraph (if applicable) on whether being found fit for work related activity (work program) would cause significant harm to your health.

 

If you want to,post up what you write (without identifiers) and we'll take a look and give feedback.

 

Yes, they look at the whole appeal pack.

 

Why do you need to mark the appeal papers?

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office ~ Aesop

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Do a brief description and history of your conditions,

they already have this , sent it with the ESA additional information sheets i sent and again with my appeal letter

 

Why do you need to mark the appeal papers?

really because all the information is already in there in lots of detail and im trying not to repeat myself .

 

rather than trying to frazzle my poor malfunctioning brain any more by trying to incorporate cross referncing in my descriptor evidence information in order to address the secretary of states response (section 5- the response).. would it be ok to do the descriptors and then mop up the challenges /inaccuracies using cross referencing on a separate paragraph /sheet?.

honestly i just feel like writing "its time now to actually read the bloody thing!) ....how many hands does this need to pass through before someone actually reads the information supplied.

Also write a paragraph (if applicable) on whether being found fit for work related activity (work program) would cause significant harm to your health.

I will definately do this , i know Reg 35 is only really used when you dont meet any descriptors, but i have to say it feels like the crux of the matter for me in relation to why i should be in the support group....despite clearly meeting incontinence, mobilising and coping with social engagement

 

this is exactly the kind of thing that my cognitive impairment doesnt let me do .....oh the irony

 

I will post it when i am done thank you

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It's your choice, and of course you need to do what you can manage, but the best way to present your case is in a single submission. The Tribunal panel have limited time to read through the appeal bundle, and in my opinion it's always best in matters such as esa or dla to not rely on the judge's quick interpretation of the papers. The same goes with the brief description of your conditions.

 

The inaccuracies can be just a single line for each one:

 

On page 14 of the appeal bundle, it is stated that I am able to do x, this is incorrect, as although I may be able to x once on a good day, I am unable to repeat the task and even on a good day this causes pain severe enough that it further limits my abilities for several days after. I have one 'good day' a week on average.

 

You don't need to mark the pages, just give a page number, if they want to look it up they will.

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office ~ Aesop

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I know I'm being picky, sorry, but:

 

I would never write "on a good day"; as it implies that you have no problem on these days. I was always told to write "better day", which implies it's not as bad as your bad or average days.

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This is correct. Limited capability for work means you go into WRAG and limited capability for work related activity is the support group.

 

I've not seen an ESA85a to answer your last question. But I know people who have said their ESA85a (I think) scored them x amount of points on a descriptor.

 

This is the case for my friend Cathy not understanding the abbreviation jargon of work activity group and the support group, I couldn't fight her case that she should be put into the support group after her medical with atos and I agree about what you've said being grateful when she won her esa and put in the work group that's exactly how we felt now I am having to sort it all out because she has been called for the 'Work Programme' which we were unaware of!

 

I think it is very important people understand between the work activity group and the support group! I intend to mention that to Ingeus WP when cathy and I attend her next appointment with them, she suffers from depression, early stage of dementia, panic attacks and anxiety the fact that Ingeus actually agreed at the first appointment that cathy won't be made to do anything because of her mental illness surely that is a case to put her in the support group!

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I know I'm being picky, sorry, but:

 

I would never write "on a good day"; as it implies that you have no problem on these days. I was always told to write "better day", which implies it's not as bad as your bad or average days.

 

Thank you for this advice, it's great to get useful tips! :)

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I know I'm being picky, sorry, but:

 

I would never write "on a good day"; as it implies that you have no problem on these days. I was always told to write "better day", which implies it's not as bad as your bad or average days.

 

It doesn't really matter whether you put better or good day, as long as a what constitutes a better or good day is clearly defined, and the frequency detailed. Tribunal members aren't stupid, they understand that a good day for a sick or disabled person doesn't mean 'no problem'.

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office ~ Aesop

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broken the back of it now i hope..im afraid its going to be 14 pages long :|with 6 pages of medical reports and letters. I cannot get it any less without leaving out really significant information ( there isnt much different to what i originally sent in with the ESA tbh, but hopefully they will find it easier to get to the information and hopefully they may even read it this time ??)

 

wont get it to them until tuesday ( will do and drop it off by hand) only leaves 7 working days until the hearing... hope thats is going to be ok ?

 

If you want to,post up what you write (without identifiers) and we'll take a look and give feedback.

whats the best way to do that?.. written it as word doc and its got table formatting and such like
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broken the back of it now i hope..im afraid its going to be 14 pages long :|with 6 pages of medical reports and letters. I cannot get it any less without leaving out really significant information ( there isnt much different to what i originally sent in with the ESA tbh, but hopefully they will find it easier to get to the information and hopefully they may even read it this time ??)

 

wont get it to them until tuesday ( will do and drop it off by hand) only leaves 7 working days until the hearing... hope thats is going to be ok ?

 

whats the best way to do that?.. written it as word doc and its got table formatting and such like

7 days before the hearing is fine to let the Tribunal have your papers, take copies with you. Good Luck...

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can anyone tell me congnitive impairement due to Multiple Sclerosis should be accepted as valid consideration for the mental health descriptors for ESA?

 

or point me to information that i can use to argue this point for consideration in my appeal .

I have significant cognitive dysfunction due to brain damage from the disease process of multiple sclerosis and have detailed this in my ESA under the following : 8) communicating with people

10) Staying conscious when awake

11) learning how to do tasks

12 )Awareness of hazard or danger

13) initiating actions

14)Coping with change

16) coping with social situations

however , in my appeal papers it states that

 

"although I have reported difficulties with many of the Mental heath descpriptors this is due to my physical problems"

and need some direction as to whether it is valid to continue arguing this point.

I detail dfficulties that arise from things like impaired; memory , focus , concentration and processing skillsi understand that Physical descriptors should only apply for physical conditions and mental health

descriptors should only apply for mental health conditions, and that incapability must arise directly from a mental health condition or as a direct result of treatment provided by a registered medical practitioner for a specific mental illness or disablement.

 

So cognitive impairment as a part of MS disease process, mental health or not ?

 

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Hello there.

 

I've put this with your existing thread, as I think it will be easier if the information is kept together.

 

I'll have a look for the descriptors.

 

Edit: actually, are you looking for the descriptors or ways that your condition fits them? I may have misunderstood.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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