HMRC Wanting money my partner doesnt owe help please - we live in NIreland :)

[wiseajak]

hello beutiful people,

 

i have a slight issue with HMRC, well i dont more specifically my partner does.

 

he used to be self employed and work kinda dried up and he ended up having to sign on JSA.

 

Well HMRC are now sending him bills for tax he doesnt owe, up to £4,000,

we have written to them explain that he isnt working and is signing on,

my partner didnt know he had to tell HMRC that he had signed on and was no longer self employed as he thought the DWP or whoever it is over here ( northern ireland)

would do all tha for him.

 

However he constanly getting bills for thousands getting higher each time with Late *penalties*

 

they dont seem to have taken any notice of our strongly yet politely worded letter that was sent to them

clearly out laying that he was unemplyoed and on JSA and he didnt owe it.

 

i mean how the hell is someone on JSA supposed to Pay a tax bill of nearly 5 grand.

 

we did get the letter bk he had sent saying that he hadnt signed it and cudnt accept the appeal until he had signed it,

so he signed and sent it bak.

 

can anyone elaborate on what to expect and how better to handle these clowns...

 

thanks.

[i hate bailiffs]

if you have not already done so inform them in writing as will get no where talking to them on the phone

 

keep a paper trail recorded post if need be

[Conniff]

I've moved your thread into the HMRC section jak.

[wiseajak]

I've moved your thread into the HMRC section jak.

Thank you conniff. Im new to CAG must say its brill. Il get the hang of it lol.

I hte ballifs-yes i have written and told them thy dont seem to listen to it. Just keep sending constant bill and penalties

[wiseajak]

Ok so time has passed since my last post and reply from Hmrc. So now after much letter sending the again send a bill for over 3k with 'ajustments' and penalties cancelled but he still doesnt owe the demanded balance and even if he did hes on jsa and how is he gunna pay 3k how do u get through to these people? Help !!

[Conniff]

Has his books been audited so he has a certificate he can copy to HMRC?

[wiseajak]

well not that i know of.

 

all i can say is that he is on JSA and they know it!

 

they also know that he is unemployed, and that the bill was going to be 'investigated'

but it looks like they havent even touched it,

 

they have written off the penaltie charges but as for the bill they still claim he owes it,

 

theres no way on earth he could pay 3k!

 

we just really dont know what to do or say to these people as they just dont listen.

[maroondevo52]

Has your partner returned his Tax Returns for the time he was self employed ?

[wiseajak]

sorry for long long delay

 

as far as i no he has, their just being total b*******

Edited December 13, 2012 by Conniff

[rds60h]

I have had similar problems and have been advised that I owe several different amounts and

 

in one letter telling me I had not filed my Minister of Religion pages on my Tax Returns......

.......I am not a Minister or indeed religious.

 

In fact the correspondence I have had from HMRC has come from 9 different offices in different parts of the country

and none of them seem to know what the other is doing, which I have told them !

 

Reply to all the letters you receive from them and make sure you do all of your correspondence in writting and keep copies, do NOT correspond over the phone !

 

Tell them you do not agree with their figures and ask them to suggest how you can repay your debt to them and keep asking them this.

They will eventually hand your "debt" over to a Debt Collection Agency who will demand repayment and then threaten Court Action and/or Bankrupcy.

 

As long as you can prove you have queried the Tax "debt" and have asked for a repayment solution.......

.......Hence keeping copies of all correspondence, I am sure a Court would look leniantly on you if it ever goes that far.

 

HMRC will not suggest a repayment scheme because they know in your position you cannot pay it,

but you will have queried the amounts owed and requested a solution from them so you cannot do any more.

 

Just be warned they will try all of the bully tactics available, but just reply to them and tell the truth.

 

They chase individuals like us for small sums and yet ignore the fact that companies like

StarBucks, Google and Amazon blatently avoid paying huge amounts of tax.

[wiseajak]

Hello

 

Mid last year my partner was getting lots of letters from HMRC demanding tax he didnt owe with penatly charges was around £4,500.

 

I wrote and explained that he has been unemployed for a substantial amount of time and was on JSA.

 

They never wrote back. Even though they informed us on the phone that a reply would take up to 6-8weeks.

 

Now on the 29 of june 2013 a whole 8-9months since the last letters

they have sent him another bill,

however all the penatly charges has been removed and now stands at £3,233 this includes £45 interest that say its running on this bill.

 

He is now on a joint claim with me of ESA.

 

I hve written another letter that im posting monday by RM signed for

stating that he has been on benefit for years and in no way liable for this massive bill.

 

He used to be registered as self employed but told them long ago when he becamae jobless and on benefit

so they do know he's unemployed but they refuse to listen and still send him bills for a rediculous amount that theres no way he can pay even though he doesnt owe anything.

 

I would like to know what more i can do about this as it seems they refuse to listen and i may as well send letters yo my bedroom wall!

 

Any help will be greatly recieved

 

Thanks

Alison

[dx100uk]

so, can you prove he was on benefits durig the time this tax is owed?

 

if so sent it to them.

 

sadly they often suffer the left leg right arm syndrome

 

dx

[BazzaS]

Have you asked for a breakdown of what is allegedly owed?

Are the figures based on "determinations" (their 'guesstimates') from non-return of self assessments?

 

Is this income tax? NI payments?

 

With more detail of why they think these sums are owed, more appropriate advice can be offered.

 

If HMRC' believe the money is owed, saying he is on benefits won't get them to reduce the sum owed, only agree a payment plan.

If they are asking for money they aren't owed the key will be in understanding how / why they have come to believe the money is owed, and getting HMRC to reconsider.

[wiseajak]

He informed them that he was on benefit so why would he need to complete self assessment forms?

 

They just send him a bill, no breakdown just a lump sum.

 

This is income tax

 

No NI is due.

[wiseajak]

Letter doesnt give any indication of a guesstimate.

Its just amount due: £....and says to attach a payslip with their cheque thingy on the bottom , bank giro

[BazzaS]

He informed them that he was on benefit so why would he need to complete self assessment forms?

 

They just send him a bill, no breakdown just a lump sum.

 

This is income tax

 

No NI is due.

 

He has to complete self-assessment IF they have asked him to do so : even if no tax is due.

 

Have they asked him to complete self-assessment?.

What follows applies only if this is the case.

 

If so, and he hasn't, HMRC can make a "determination" : they can assess the tax due, and (Under the taxes management Act 1970) it becomes fact unless appealed.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1970/9/section/29/enacted

 

S29(3)a

 

So : IF the problem is he hasn't sent in returns that they have asked for, even if he says "I'm on benefits and don't owe tax" :

A) Until he completes the returns, they can work it out on THEIR best guess assessment

B) their assessment becomes fact unless appealed within the statuatory timescales,

C) After 6 years from the return being due, they don't have to re-asses it even if a return is then supplied.

They MIGHT, but don't HAVE to.

 

This is all predicated on them having required him to complete a return and him having not done so, even if he has told them (informally, as far as HMRC are concerned : since it is the return that is their formal notification) that no tax is due.

 

It may seem unfair, but it is the law, and allows HMRC to collect tax from people who are deliberately trying to evade tax by not completing a return.

This is separate to the penalties for not submitting returns.

 

I'm not saying he has been trying to evade tax, especially if none should be due, but this is how this situation may have arisen.

[wiseajak]

So im assuming the best corse of action is to ask for self assesment forms!?

 

They havent sent him any to fill in. Should i put that in my letter, that he request the relevent forms?

I dont think 6 years have passed.

 

Thank you for your help

[wiseajak]

How long is the time scale?

I will do what i can as i really want this sorted as his answer to it was just burry his head in the sand .

. I dont want the stress of DCA's or anything after this as 14 weeks pregnant and life is stressful enough.

If you can suggest what to put in a letter i would be beyond gratefull to you.

 

Thanks again

[BazzaS]

So im assuming the best corse of action is to ask for self assesment forms!?

 

They havent sent him any to fill in. Should i put that in my letter, that he request the relevent forms?

I dont think 6 years have passed.

 

Thank you for your help

 

Did he submit returns and if not, are HMRC asking for them.

If not,I may be barking up the wrong tree ...you need to find out the breakdown of what HMRC is claiming, and why.

 

However, it seems possible he has been asked for SA returns, given your previous post mentioning "penalties", and his "burying of head":

 

How long is the time scale?

I will do what i can as i really want this sorted as his answer to it was just burry his head in the sand .

. I dont want the stress of DCA's or anything after this as 14 weeks pregnant and life is stressful enough.

If you can suggest what to put in a letter i would be beyond gratefull to you.

 

Thanks again

 

Again the first thing to do is to find out how the liability has arisen.

 

If it is income tax, then HMRC has 2 main "arms" you could be dealing with : "assessment" and "collections".

 

The aim is to stop "collections" progressing things while getting things agreed with "assessment".

 

Phone the number listed on the most recent letter.

Explain as best you can the situation, and if both arms are involved, ask for a number to speak to the other, too.

 

Find out what the main issue is and let them know you want to get it sorted out. Keep each 'arm' aware of where you are with the other. Keep notes of who you speak to, when, and aim to agree with them a realistic time-scale for each step on the way to getting any overdue returns back.

 

If collections know you are disputing the sum and it will be recalculated as much less by assessment ; they may put a hold on their processes. Their key will be knowing that you don't owe what is currently showing AND seeing that confirmed as assessment process returns and adjust down their 'determinations'

 

In the end (hopefully!) all they will want isto have HMRC paid what is due by law.

 

My experience helping someone through similar was of collections being amenable to reason : they just wanted it resolved.

Many people in assessment seemed similarly reasonable : a few we're very helpful : 1 (in particular) was obstructive / unhelpful and in effect was "I don't care that you've kept to the timescale previously agreed and have got all but one return back. The member of HMRC staff who helped you get the previous returns back exceeded their remit : sort it yourself or else"

My friend was surprised by their response : and just went round them : but most HMRC staff were helpful when they saw my friend was getting it resolved.

 

Your partner may still be liable for penalties for failing to supply a return even if no tax was due for a particular year. The penalties have increased recently, so it may be worth getting the 2011/12 return done first,then the 2010/11, then the earliest outstanding return, then work forward from the earliest years to 2009/10 last.

Edited July 1, 2013 by BazzaS

[BazzaS]

Any update??

 

Is the issue "determinations" / failure to provide SA returns?

If not : what is the reason HMRC believe tax is owed?

[wiseajak]

Hi

 

I wrote a post on this earlier in the month, its about hmrc and the fatv my partner is on benefits and has been for a while but hmrc still are convinced that he owes them money.

 

To cut this short he has now got a letter saying litterally this,

 

If you do not pay or contact us (which he has on serveral occasions) we can visit your premises and arrange for your possesions to be taken and sold at public auction as the law allows.

 

Now am i right in thinking even though this is hmrc they still need a court order or judgement to do this.

 

Im really panicing as i have my stuff here to and im not prepared to lose it all again i lost everything when i was 14 due to my mother im also 16 weeks pregnant and really dont need this im in tears

 

Please help!!

[dx100uk]

three threads merged on same issue

 

please keep to one thread for

history of advise already given

 

dx

[BazzaS]

Thanks for the merge, dx.

 

I'd posted on 6th July:

"Is the issue "determinations" / failure to provide SA returns?

If not : what is the reason HMRC believe tax is owed?"

 

I'd previously posted about contacting both "collections" and "assessment".

 

If "collections" are undertaking "distraint" proceedings, then no, they don't need a court order nor judgement. They can't force entry into your property without a warrant, though.

 

Did you contact both 'assesment' and 'collections' as I'd previously advised?. Is the issue tax 'determinations' on the basis of SA non-returns.?

 

I am aware my answers / advice may be of limited validity, as without the information as to if you've followed my previous advice and why HMRC believe he owes them those sums : I may be barking up the wrong tree.

 

I'd be concerned that any advice you receive may be limited without those details, and/or people may be put off replying if they can see no reply to those previous questions and the lack of response to where I'd asked for an update : these are questions to which the answers will help CAG'ers to help you.

Edited July 15, 2013 by BazzaS

[wiseajak]

Hello

 

So sorry i hadnt replied iv been in and out of hospital and just been very stressed in general.

 

He contacted them again just now and explained it all over again,

 

I told my partner what you had said and he said to the guy on the phone about collections and assesment and he advised the following

 

He said that the letter was automated and to ignore it, that he (my partner)was in consultation with hmrc and all the relevent forma he needs to fill out and send back are on there way to him, these being self assesment forms for the years needed, and they may take up to 14 days.

 

He further apploigised for the streas caused and the lack of communication that had been left on the system as their was limted info on the previous attempts to sort this.

 

He needs to fill out the SA's and return them to proove that he is on benefit and the issue should sort itself out.

 

Im sorry if thats very brief and i get myself into a tizzy as i get stressed very easily.

[wiseajak]

Yes the derterminations were on the non return of SA basis, amongst interest etc