Smokejumper's ET thread

[smokejumper]

Hi Everyone,

 

I am suspended awaiting a discipline hearing.

 

My employer said that when I am given a hearing date I cannot resign, but that they would consider it.

 

I asked them to explain and give me details of my contract or the relevant law that they are relying on, they didn't reply.

 

Does anyone know the answer, my opinion is they are talking rubbish, if I hand in my notice, what are they going to do? say " sorry you can't resign, we won't accept it" can't believe they even think they can do it. In that case I could say, I don't accept you sacking me, but I might consider it.

 

Surely resignation is not a two way thing.

 

Look forward to your opinions.

[Emmzzi]

you can resign

 

they can also issue a reference saying "resigned while under investigation for misconduct"

[smokejumper]

Yes I realise they can give a reference showing this.

 

But they are adamant that they only have to consider my resignation. A friend who is a Police Officer said it's in his contract that he can't resign in this way.

 

I have never heard of this happening before and they also didn't answer my email asking them where they got this idea.

 

They seem to be pushing me to resign, having told me it would be the best way forward, I read that as them not having a strong case.

 

Well we will find out in due course ;-)

you can resign

 

they can also issue a reference saying "resigned while under investigation for misconduct"

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

You seem to be anticipating the worst here, maybe it won't happen. Do you have help with the disciplinary meeting or could the guys here give you any advice about it?

 

My best, HB

[smokejumper]

Thanks Honey,

 

At the moment I need to be a bit vague, as you never know who's reading this and don't want to compromise anything.

 

Thanks for your support.

 

Some of the allegations are founded and one is due to them, but they are also being quite difficult.

 

I'm not well either and having great difficulty getting a defence together.

 

Probably said enough for them to identify myself if they are reading this.

 

Emmizzi please go easy on me, I know you hate these sort of vague posts and you scare me ;-)

 

But at the moment, I'm just curious if anyone has heard of them being able to consider my resignation and wouldn't have thought they could do anything as long as you gave the necessary notice, which in my case is one week.

 

If I resign, I can take my pension but if dismissed I have to wait another 10 years, so high stakes involved.

Hello there.

 

You seem to be anticipating the worst here, maybe it won't happen. Do you have help with the disciplinary meeting or could the guys here give you any advice about it?

 

My best, HB

[Emmzzi]

are you in the police? them and some of the forces and emergency services are not technically employees so standard contract law doesn't apply. If that is your position it gets complicated and you should talk to your union.

 

If you work in an office or a shop or contact centre or whatever, well, we still have free will, and they cannot force you to stay.I believe manacles are not permitted in most workplaces these days

[smokejumper]

Not the Police but you are getting close.

 

Thats interesting, I didn't realise standard contract law didn't apply, I wonder why they didn't explain this when I sent them an email.

 

Just my luck for it too be complicated, as they say if it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck.

 

What is the deal then? are you members, rather than employees. Although most of the rules and regs I've read, refer to you as employees, so I would have thought by this action alone, you were deemed an employee. Anyway as you suggested I will try and talk to a union rep.

are you in the police? them and some of the forces and emergency services are not technically employees so standard contract law doesn't apply. If that is your position it gets complicated and you should talk to your union.

 

If you work in an office or a shop or contact centre or whatever, well, we still have free will, and they cannot force you to stay.I believe manacles are not permitted in most workplaces these days

[Emmzzi]

Can't really advise further without blowing your cover. Rep is best place to go, they will be used to this. Good luck!

[smokejumper]

Hi,

I made an ET claim against my employer.

 

Got their response from the ET with a letter saying" the response has been accepted and the case has been referred to an ET judge, Any request or applications made in response will be considered and you will be notified in due course, if applicable"

 

If you have not already been informed of the hearing date I will be writing to you shortly.

 

Does this mean the ET judge looks at the response to see if I have a case or does this mean it's going ahead and I need to prepare my case and evidence.

 

I went to an ET many years ago and don't remember how it went.

 

Can anyone tell me how it runs.

 

thanks for any help.

[smokejumper]

I have started an employment tribunal claim and have a date for a CMD.

 

My mental health has taken a major decline, to the point that I have been contemplating suicide again.

 

Is it possible to put a hold on the proceedings as I representing myself and this is adding to my problems.

 

My doctor never seems to be supportive and comes up with lines along " don't you think you are just delaying the inevitable" she never seems to want to put anything in writing to anyone and even gives me politician answers and I seem to end up leaving having forgotten why I went there in the first place.

 

I don't get any support and just get locked up when I attempt suicide or suicidal thoughts. Really don't know what to do, how can I get everyone to realise how ill I really am.

[Emmzzi]

Hi hon, sorry you are feeling so low.

 

It will be tough to get a postponement without medical support.

 

You can get a delay with doctors support but not indefinately.

 

Do you speak to anyone like MIND that could help with support and coping strategies?

[SweetLorraine]

Hi smokejumper,

 

do please stop and think if an ET is worth the pressure - especially if you are alone, representing yourself? You may be better off walking away from such a process.

 

Would you like to share a very basic outline of your claim? - perhaps some members here can help at an early stage.

 

At such an early stage in the ET process please don't worry unduly.

[smokejumper]

Thank you both for your support.

 

Sorry I didn't thank you sooner, but I'm in a bad place at the moment and feeling very low.

 

I have a medical appointment on the 5th, see what they can do, so many people I've seen have sloping shoulders, I don't understand is it easy to get sued writing a letter saying someone is too ill, they are willing to make out a sick note though, doesn't make sense. I may try and ring the court and ask them what I would need in way of proof.

 

Sorry can't really put any details of my claim as it would instantly identify me if the employer read it. Not deliberately trying to be vague.

 

I can say that I spoke to a no win no fee firm and they gave it a 70% chance, so they would not be interested, I think she said it needs to be 75% or something near.

[SweetLorraine]

Hello again smokejumper,

 

no, from what you have told us I assume your (qualified) medical advisors, or you, will not get sued if they can produce an acceptable/valid sick note ahead of the CMD hearing seeking a postponement. At this stage very little costs may have been incurred by either side anyway.

 

I understand you may not wish to go into much detail about your claim. However a vague flavour of it may help some of us help you. For example is it a discrimination case, or based on disability/sex/whistleblowing - that sort of thing. Then others can advise on here.

 

A question I was always repeatedly asked (which may help you clarify things) is what do you really want to get out of going to Tribunal? Honestly? And is it realistic? Important questions.

 

Sometimes walking away.... it may not be only the OK thing to do, it's the best thing to do. The sense of relief in putting it all behind you may be the greatest 'pay-off' of all. I've experienced that feeling, it feels so, so good.

 

Please give it some thought.

Edited July 25, 2013 by SweetLorraine

[smokejumper]

Thanks for the advice.

 

I'm taking out a disability discrimination case ( few incidents )

 

I can't say what I'm asking for as that would definately make it obvious, however the employer did try to settle but not meeting all my wishes.

 

If they don't match what I'm after, then a reward would be to make them work and a bonus would be if they realise how serious their actions were/are.

 

Also the tribunal should highlite evidence in a discipline case, it's complicated and a major, very well known company with other problems at the moment.

[Emmzzi]

 

I can't say what I'm asking for as that would definately make it obvious, however the employer did try to settle but not meeting all my wishes.

 

If they don't match what I'm after, then a reward would be to make them work and a bonus would be if they realise how serious their actions were/are.

 

If it is a bigish employer, you won’t get what you want. The lawyer will do the work, the employer will barely feel a thing. Unless there was a fatality and there is a lot of adverse publicity, the are also unlikely to learn anything they don't already know. I've worked all my days in big corporates and I know the little guy hopes they will see the light, and the big bosses are wearing sunglasses.

 

If it was a reasonable cash offer, take it. If you cannot get a no win no fee to take you on, your case is not as strong as you think it is.

 

For your own ongoing mental health I urge you to consider taking the cash, concentrating on your health which is the most important thing here.

 

Living well is the best revenge.

[SweetLorraine]

Hi smokejumper,

 

very sound advice from Emmzzi. The Tribunal may not satisfy all your wishes. If your employer is offering a reasonable settlement perhaps you should consider that as a victory in itself and move on.

 

I, like you, believed that my claim would force my employer to 'see the light' and realise where I had been wronged. They don't want to look themselves in the mirror like that. They hired an outside law firm to deal with me - they had even less sympathy for my views (of course). My attempts at seeking a reasonable agreed outcome were simply viewed as a weakness.

 

I was very emotional about the whole affair really, the other side were not at all. It left me pretty beaten up, and my claim never even made it to a full hearing.

 

So, I, like some others on here, do drop in to offer advice based on their experiences and to try to guide others. There are some great legal professionals on here that offer wonderful advice as well.

 

If you can get a reasonable offer at this early stage please think about taking it and move on.

 

Emmzzi's last line is the best advice of all.

[smokejumper]

It is a biggish employer, biggest in it's field in the UK and without checking, probably the world.

 

No I need it to be what I'm asking for and as I said it's difficult to tell more, the money part I can take or leave.

 

They have their own legal dept and it will cause a lot of work via the HR/ management club, with all the people involved desperately trying to play pass the parcel, in reverse( ie; they don't want the parcel). Lots of people treading on other people and I'm getting feedback from my mole, it's really fun when you hear the next bit, similar to a good tv drama, where you have to wait a whole week to get the next episode and you can't wait.

 

 

Stopping is not an option and I am halfway relieved they didn't mediate to my satisfaction.

 

On a side note, knowledge in treating people fairly, is getting better but there is still a thinking that one type of discrimination is more serious than another.

 

All discrimination must be eliminated. Peoples first thoughts are that you cannot get away with discrimination through skin colour but they have to spend more time weighing up discrimination through a disability.

 

This is proven (IMO) by the level of award the two attract in the system and that a judge( name escapes me, but could look it up) stated the award must not be a punishment to the employer ( why not, punishment is an incentive to improve)

 

They are in a catch 22 situation, as they are also giving a lot away in a parallel discipline case and vice versa , that part is fun to watch unravelling.

 

The company are very proud of their success ? in diversity and have awards(plaques) etc. I think a lot of people are getting heat over this, even though it's a walk in the park for a lawyer ( as you mentioned).

 

No win no fee people didn't take it on as only a 70% chance of winning and also needed to earn £8000 from it, so declined. I like those odds myself ;-)

 

It is complicated and I know how frustrating it is when you don't have the full story.

 

You have kindly given your opinions on stalling the process, which is what I need to do and I thank you for that advice.

[SweetLorraine]

Hi smokejumper,

 

OK, good luck to you. It would be reasonable to assume that the Tribunal will postpone the CMD if your request is backed up by a note/report from someone in the medical profession. I would also add that you need to be clear that you are asking for a postponement of the CMD, not a cancellation.

 

The Tribunal may also wish to know whether this medical condition would stop you attending another hearing in the future so it might be worth getting your medical professional to express an opinion on that point.

 

Do contact the Tribunal service to see what they would wish to see included in your request for a postponement.

 

I would also add that when I turned up for my CMD at 10 a.m. I was told it was, in fact, a 'floating' meeting. That meant that if they couldn't find an employment judge whose time was free to hear the CMD by midday I would be sent home and another date for the CMD would be scheduled.

 

So there is a lot of flexibility at this stage in the process, i.e. it is not the end of the world for the Tribunal if they have to reschedule your CMD - it is something they do all the time.

[smokejumper]

what did they expect you to have with you at the cmd.

 

How was it carried out.

[Emmzzi]

good luck then hon. You can change your mind any time. You seem to be having a more positive day today. Remember your GP, MIND and the samaritans!

[smokejumper]

Thanks Emmzzi ;-) yes good and bad days.

[SweetLorraine]

what did they expect you to have with you at the cmd.

 

How was it carried out.

 

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_problems_at_work_e/work_employment_tribunals_e/preparing_an_employment_tribunal_case.htm#what%27s_a_case_management_discussion

 

A little info. here, google around a bit as well.

[smokejumper]

Hi,

 

Can anyone on here that deals with discipline hearings give me their opinion.

 

I'm working on my defence for a pending serious misconduct hearing.

 

I know that these discipline cases work on probability, but.

 

If the main witness(also a part time magistrate), who is relying on his integrity to have his story believed, where to be proven without a doubt by three witnesses, to be lying on an event that occurred in their presence.

 

Would his account of another event, that happened behind closed doors with no witnesses, now be in doubt or would you think that due to probability, he will be believed.

 

The way I'm thinking, due to probability if he's lying about one event, then he's probably lying about other statements made ( which I know to be untruthful, because I was there).

 

I haven't collaborated with the witnesses, only seen their statements, which confirm my statement of events. No pressure or coaching has taken place and neither will it take place.

Edited August 11, 2013 by seanamarts
Replaced deleted text

[smokejumper]

I am taking an employer to an ET and they claim to have a vulnerable witness.

 

This I imagine will make it more difficult to question this witness.

 

I can only guess that they are claiming vulnerability due to risk of intimidation ( only due to the fact, that no one was sexually abused or any young people involved).

 

Can I question as to why they are claiming the witness to be vulnerable and require them to prove this fact and then challenge it.

Edited August 11, 2013 by seanamarts
replaced deleted text