Lowell and vanquis issues summons county court help!!!

[finlander]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?302694-Electronic-Signature-for-Online-Applications post 5......... this is example of the 'online app'

[citizenB]

So this is not the original document and is something produced by Lowells ?

 

How the hell would they know what the original looked like if there isn't a copy.

 

Do you have any memory of what the original format was ?

[finlander]

sorry citizen I think im confusing things... the above example hasnt been sent to me yet. All we received in 2009 was photocopy of a t&c's leaflet. Im just concerned that this new 'internet application' as in the thread above is lowells new tactic to get round the lack of CCA's. Im concerned that my disclosure request will produce one of these and if it does 1. how do i counter it? if they say it was an intenet application and produce this rubbish how can I prove it wasnt? 2. Is this any good for a pre 2007 agreement. bearing in mind that the card was taken out in 2006 I cant see the arguement that 'its too old to have kept the docs' etc being very fair and surely they would have to prove an electronic audit trail to it. After all i could have knocked that up on my home pc. just trying to get things ready. At the moment I have had no disclosure, no answer or acknowledgment of my SAR to vanquis, no deed of assignment and no default notice and not even an acknowledgement of my disclosure request fro Drydens. Getting a bit concerned as I have to have my defence in by 14th and Im not sure what they will spring on me. Reading these threads it appears that nowadays DJ are accepting CCa's drawn up on the back of a fag packet if the bank says its prob a true copy. Geoff

[finlander]

ok, How is this for a defence,

 

DEFENCE

 

1. It is admitted that I the defendant has held an account with Vanquis Bank in the past but will contend that this account is in dispute.

 

2. On the 19th August 2009 the defendant made a request to Vanquis Bank under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, sections 77−79, to see a copy of any credit agreement and a statement of account. Vanquis Bank did not supply a copy of the agreement or a statement of account as required by law .

 

3. On the 16th June 2013 I requested information pertaining to this claim by way of a CPR 31.14 request. The claimant has declined to respond, or even acknowledge the request, within the deadline set.

 

4. Without clarification of the claimants claim, the defendant is extremely disadvantaged and the claimants claim appears to be without merit. The defendant asks to be allowed to submit a complete defence should the claimant provide copies of the original documents he will rely on.

 

5. The particulars of claim are vague and unsubstantiated with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant and the Claimant is put to strict proof to

 

a. show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement or contract with the Claimant; and

 

b. show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for and

 

c. show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim

 

6. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

 

7. Furthermore, if the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 and196 of the Law of Property Act 1925 and Section 82 (a) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

8. The claimant has failed to comply with sections 111 AND 1V of the pre action conduct "practice directions". The Claimant has failed to even acknowledge any request made by myself, via recorded delivery, regarding disclosure of documents in order that I may plead effectively.

 

9. By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

 

10. For avoidance of doubt, the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all to the particulars of claim. Without further clarification and disclosure. Statement of Truth I believe that the facts stated in this Defence of claim to be true.

Edited July 7, 2013 by citizenB
formatting

[Guest]

finlander

edit your posts there re paragraphs so is more post friendly? edit; done

Edited July 7, 2013 by Ford

[citizenB]

Ok you still have a couple of days as your defence is not due until 15th July.

 

So hold tight until at the very least tomorrow when andyorch can have a peek at your draft defence.

[AndyOrch]

Hi Finlander

 

If you could re type their Particulars (verbatim) and then I can check your draft.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[citizenB]

 

Today I received a summons from MCOL stating we are being summoned to court.

 

The POC of claim summarised are

1. claiming in respect of an agreement under the CCA 1974 failed to maintain payments etc

2.Debt was legally assigned to Lowells by Vanquis

3 interest at 8%

 

Date of issue is 12 Jun 2013.

 

Andy, PoC ^^^^

[finlander]

Hi, Any views on the defence yet. Still nothing in the post from anyone today. Geoff

[AndyOrch]

Finlander if you can retype the particulars of the claim (verbatim) then your defence can be checked......

 

Regards

 

Andy

[finlander]

The POC is as follows:

 

1. The claim is in the sum of £xxx.xx and is in respect of monies owing by the defendant on a credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974.

 

The original creditor was Vanquis under account number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. The defendant failed to maintain the contractual payments due under the terms of the agreement and a default notice has been served and not complied with.

 

2. The debt was legally assigned to the claimant by Vanquis on xx/xx/xxxx and a notice of assignment was served upon the defendant.

 

3. The claim also includes statutory interest pursuant to section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum (a daily rate of 0.14094) from the date of assignment of the agreement to the date of issue (xx/xx/xxxx to xx/xx/xxxx) being an amount of xxxx.

Edited July 10, 2013 by citizenB
formatting

[finlander]

I can't seem to post in paragraphs. I do it but then it just posts in block text? Geoff

[citizenB]

I can't seem to post in paragraphs. I do it but then it just posts in block text? Geoff

 

 

Formatted for you, Finlander. It is indeed very frustrating, it happens to me when I copy and paste. It only seems to happen with some browsers.

 

Someone has suggested typing into notepad.. but as that is "technical", I don't understand what you would need to do.

 

Andy isn't online at the moment, but he will pop in as soon as he is

[finlander]

bump........

[AndyOrch]

Yes that ok ...lose number 10 its not required.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[finlander]

Defence submitted... Lets see what happens now. Still no paper work, acknowledgement from lowlells, vanquis. Cheers for your help folks Geoff

[Guest]

goodo

they will get notice/copy of your defence from the court. they then have 28 days to decide whether to continue or not with their claim. if they don't respond to the court in that time as such, then it will be auto stayed.

[finlander]

UPDATES 1Court have acknowledged defence and state sent to claimant 2. Received my sar from lowells. basically its a copy of all there stsements (bit like a credit card statement with 'lowells ' written on it. A call log showing about 15 contacts and thats it. So no credit agreement 3. received the sar from vanquis. basically a spreadsheet with account activity showing about 30 late payment fees. Also a excel sort of sheet showing contacts and account activity. All comes to about 3 pages. Howver .... the account activity states ...Internet application... but no computer records of the said application. Now if there were any they should be in my SAR surely as 'data protection' would require 'data' from an application. True? So why no application form? Same with Lowlells? Now my wife is convinced it wasnt an Inernet application. This defence should be intersting...actually when you know people are lying to you it starts to get a bit more 'fun'....... No other contact........ Geoff

[finlander]

Anyone can point me in the direction of the intrest calculator for the the charges please as I am going for a counter claim now...

[citizenB]

I will ask about the calculator for you finlander, although you might find one in the PPI forums.

 

As for the agreement, whether it be an internet application or other method.. that is covered under the CCA 1974 act and whilst some companies will provide a copy within the SAR, they aren't obliged to. I know it is daft, I agree with you.. it is data !! However the ICO will not back you on that

[citizenB]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?330996-Latest-Spreadsheets-PPI-Claims-and-Charges-Claims-Dec-2011

 

I think the spread sheets above do the hard work for you. If you are struggling.. then just hit the "report post" button under each post and ask for someone to come and help

[ims21]

Responding to citizenB SOS

 

This is the interest calculator for your charges.

 

Please follow the instructions in the "Notes" tab

 

CISheet v101.xls

Edited July 22, 2013 by ims21

[finlander]

I will ask about the calculator for you finlander, although you might find one in the PPI forums.

 

As for the agreement, whether it be an internet application or other method.. that is covered under the CCA 1974 act and whilst some companies will provide a copy within the SAR, they aren't obliged to. I know it is daft, I agree with you.. it is data !! However the ICO will not back you on that

 

hi, I understand that they may have that outer but Im just trying to build a trail for the DJ. 4 years ago I ask for a CCA. I get a leaflet. No document with any signature, etc or ascertion that this was an internet application. Now surely that means my original CCa request is still not been satidsfied as I havnt even got a reconstituted doc? The sar produces no CCA or default notice form vaquis. Drydens havnt produced one on my CPR request.

 

Now the CCA hasnt been kept otherwise they would have produced it on my original request. They claim it was an internet application which my wife disputes.She is convinced it was a 'flyer' in a magazine. Now the sar shows no 'computerised documents' relating to her application just an entry saying 'internet application' which could have been written last week. I also understand that they may not have to supply the CCA but don't they have to supply the application information before it was executed.

 

What im saying is the executed aggreemnt may be subject to the CCA requiest but the information inputted was done so before the agreement was executed. Therefore it is seperate data to the executed document. Now surely they have to prove it was an internet application not just turn up and say so.

 

Otherwise all debts taken out after there website became live could now be claiimed as electronic and no paper CCA needed. In fact nothing needed just a nerd turning up with a spreadsheet.That cant be right. If they have the ability to tell me what her first purchase was, when they have called her etc etc they must have the ability to download the info she gave on her application, her IIP address etc etc.......

 

Geoff

Edited July 22, 2013 by citizenB

[Guest]

....whilst some companies will provide a copy within the SAR, they aren't obliged to. I know it is daft, I agree with you.. it is data !! However the ICO will not back you on that

 

spot on, generally. it is data as they themselves define it, as a written agreement/app'n form would have a name and address on it. just like a bank statement which the ico gives as an eg of data in their guide because it has name/address on it. interestingly, in one of my case, they supplied a copy app'n form (which they rely on as the agreement) under a cca request and also in a sar, but didn't supply another re the cca request, but it was supplied in a sar!!

[finlander]

spot on, generally. it is data as they themselves define it, as a written agreement/app'n form would have a name and address on it. just like a bank statement which the ico gives as an eg of data in their guide because it has name/address on it. interestingly, in one of my case, they supplied a copy app'n form (which they rely on as the agreement) under a cca request and also in a sar, but didn't supply another re the cca request, but it was supplied in a sar!!

 

I understand that a written CCA wouldnt be supplied in a sar. But if no written CCA ever existed...as they would contend if an internet application...then surely a internet application would have to be included. They cant have it both ways...if a written CCa isnt 'data' then an internet one must be?..... and the abcense of it must either ..prove the lie...or the negligence in disposing of it. The idea advanced in court that a reconstitueted copy should be allowed because companies cant possibly keep a copy of everything or might suffer some catastophe(flood etc) can't possibly hold with a computer application..... they can be stored on multiple servers...they are hence all the info on the SAR sent to you , are cheap to store etc ..They seem to have original notes , records etc minus the very notable exception of the original data which makes the CCA enforcable or not. This puts the defendant at an almost impossible burden and makes a mockery of sec 127 which even the supreme court ruled was fair to punish irresponsible lenders as parliment wished..... Its quite obviously using the law to cover up mistakes made in drafting agreements. Isnt this an unfair relationship? Geoff