Vet Fee Debt

[Uhoomagoo]

Hello

 

I hope this is the right place to post my problem.

 

Last July I had a horse that became quite poorly.

 

I claimed on my insurance for her, the total claim was in the region of £4700, I paid the vet approx £2500, it was an ongoing claim running over four months.

 

The illness she suffered from was due to negligence on the part of someone I had hired to carry out clipping her coat off. (Sorry trying to make it simple for anyone not horsey)

 

The vets and insurance company both said the third party was at fault and they would pursue her for the costs involved,

though my insurance company began to pay out, they made the cheques payable to myself.

 

In August the insurance company decided that even though the claim was for almost £3000 it wasn't worth their while to pursue this person,

I hired a solicitor and my vets told me they would support my claim, however they ignored all requests for my horses medical records

and my solicitor said without these as evidence I couldn't pursue this person any further.

 

While all this was happening my husbands business started to fail, the compamy is in debt for about £58000,

we have personal debts for which we are now in a debt management plan with Stepchange,

 

the cheques that the insurance company paid me were swallowed up in the bank account and I was unable to pay the balance to the vet.

 

I was in a payment plan with them until November, that is when my husband lost his job and I had a nervous breakdown.

I am unable to deal with anything, life is exhausting,

I have the worse panic attacks,

I cry all the time, my young son thinks I am going to die

 

At the end of April I received a voice mail from a debt collection company acting on behalf of the vets,

 

they have been very aggressive, they are demanding £7500 on behalf of the vets.

 

I don't agree with the amount claimed, I have written and asked for a breakdown of fee's and charges, which they are refusing to supply.

 

I have told them we will add them to our DMP, they wont accept this as the amount offered is too low and said they are taking me to court.

 

The latest bombshell is,

the vets have told the insurance company that I haven't paid all the claim to them and the insurance company are now threatening to take me to court for fraud,

 

I know we should have paid the vet off;

but with the business going under,my nervous breakdown all the other debts, our house is about to be repossessed and we have moved into rented accommodation now.

 

Paying the vet was just lost in the cloud of everything else that was happening.

 

My husband has a stable job, we don't have a huge amount of spare income, but we are trying to get straight, this just feels like one bridge to far.

 

I tried to kill myself on Tuesday through the stress of all of this,

my husband found me in time but really I wish he hadn't.

 

I am being threatened from all angles now and I don't know what to do. I

 

don't want to go to prison for fraud which is what they have said will happen and I haven't got the money to stop them taking me to court.

 

I just want an end to it all.

 

Thank You

[citizenB]

If the Vet were to issue a claim against you, then they would have to provide the information you have been requesting and you would be able to make an offer to the court based on your ability to pay.

 

I am not quite sure what can be done about the Insurance company. Site team are aware of the situation and hopefully will be able to offer some further advice.

 

Can I ask if you own your own home and is it in joint names ?

 

Do you know if any of your other debts have any default/penalty charges applied to the outstanding balances ? Do any of the accounts have Payment Protection Insurance applied ?

 

 

 

We cannot help with your depression and I would suggest you seek professional advice for this.

[sequenci]

Hello there.

 

Sorry to learn of the circumstances, I can appreciate just how tough things have been recently.

 

Do you have equity in the property? Have you other assets? The reason I ask is that I feel that bankruptcy could be a useful avenue to explore. As a process it is far simpler than you can imagine. http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/factsheet.php?page=01_bankruptcy

 

I would suggest getting in tough with the guys at Rethink, they are *so* helpful http://www.rethink.org.uk/

[Uhoomagoo]

Thank you for the reply. I have tablets and therapy for the depression, its just this company that are driving me over the edge at the moment. The voice mails and emails are so aggressive.

 

This is what I thought the court would take into account our circumstances, but they said that they want the debt paid in 3 months at A rate of over £2500, if I don't do this they will take me to the small claims court and then to the high court.

 

The house is in my husbands name, he bought it before we knew each other, all the other debts have defaults on to them, they total about £29000, the business was a limited company and my husband was a sole director, he owes about £30000 to the vat man. No debts had PPI on them.

 

The house is in negative equity, we have rented it out so the mortgage can be paid with the rent money, it has a secured loan and a charging order for £30000 in my husbands name. But there is arrears of £6000 on the mortgage. Its such a mess.

 

The only home I have a connection with is that of my ex-husband. I haven't lived there for 7 years or paid the mortgage, he wanted to stay there so I moved out, however my name is still on the mortgage. I suppose bankruptcy would be the best solution, but I don't want my ex husband to lose his home, t's not his fault that I am in this mess.

 

Thank you

[citizenB]

 

This is what I thought the court would take into account our circumstances,

but they said that they want the debt paid in 3 months at A rate of over £2500,

if I don't do this they will take me to the small claims court and then to the

high court.

 

Ok, well they are probably misleading you here. This sum would be below the small claims threshold of £10,000 so IF they were to issue a claim then it would be heard in Small claims - no high court at all and costs would be limited.

 

The situation where you are joint homeowner with your ex - only your interest in the property would be taken into account.

 

If you don't have any interest in the home you are living in at the moment, then that cant be touched.

 

So perhaps consider what sequence has suggested.

[citizenB]

In respect of the current mortgage, have there been any charges applied ? You can reclaim these or most of them anyway. We can help you do that if you wish.

[sequenci]

If there is equity in your ex-husband's home it could be implicated within a bankruptcy.

As far as the Business debts and tax etc. - get your partner to call business debtline: 0800 197 6027.

 

The vet bill is a non-priority debt, just like a credit card or loan - as such asking for money is really their key option here - hence the aggressive behaviour.

If a court order is brought you *should be allowed to pay the debt at a rate that you can afford - this should be on a pro-rata basis along with all of your other creditors within the DMP.

Only speak with this firm in writing - and make it clear that should they continue with their aggressive behaviour you'll look to report them to the FOS/OFT and Trading Standards.

 

Has the mortgage lender started any action? This fact sheet is good for mortageg arrears: http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/guide.php?page=guide-mortgage-arrears

 

If you wish to try and keep the property THIS is the important debt to concentrate on, there are a few of us on the site team that are VERY well versed with mortgages, I'm certain we can offer a significant amount of help and support in relation to it.

[steampowered]

Hi,

 

The first thing is to put this into perspective. At the end of the day it is only money. It is not a life or death issue. They cannot take what you don't have. The worst case scenario is that you end up having to declare bankruptcy ... the bankruptcy would normally be discharged after 12months giving you a fresh start. There are literally millions of people in the UK who have found themselves in a situation where they do not have enough money to pay all their creditors. They all come out the other end and life will move on ... in fact you are in a better position than most because your husband has a stable job.

 

On the insurance issue, take a deep breath. Noone is going to prison to fraud. We stopped sending people to prison because they get in financial difficulties in the Victorian era. This was a genuine claim, not a fraudulent claim. I am not sure what you mean when you say the insurance company are threatening to take action but fundamentally this is an issue between you and the vet ... I would be surprised if the insurer gets involved.

 

On the court issue, this is up to the vet. The worst that can happen is that the vet starts small claims proceedings against you. These are civil proceedings and there are no criminal penalties involved. It is not a particularly scary process. At this time they will need to explain to the court the amount they are claiming. If you disagree with the amount, you can contest it and the judge will decide the right amount. Once the court has decided on the amount, you then submit an income/expenditure statement to the court on form N245 and ask it to set monthly payments, taking into account your existing DMP. The vet is no different to your other creditors, starting court proceedings would not put it in a special position.

 

So, what do you do right now? I would try getting a debt counselling service or the CAB to write to the vet on your behalf asking, once again, for them to be added to the DMP. This would have more weight than you contacting the vet directly. If this does not work, then you can simply let them start court proceedings and get the court to set monthly payments.

 

As suggested above bankruptcy is an option to consider. This is no different to any other debt. The fact they are being aggressive doesn't change that, there is no need to respond to the aggression.

[Uhoomagoo]

Thank you everybody, it's helping just getting it off my chest.

 

The mortgage company have added plenty of charges on, my husband lost his job in 2009, because it was a repayment mortgage the payments were quite high, I told him him to switch to an interest only mortgage, which he eventually did. He was on contributions based jobseekers allowance and we were led to believe that we would get help paying the mortgage if he was out of work for 13 consecutive weeks, however when we submitted the forms we were refused as it was contribution based jobseekers and not income based ? His only income was £55 pw and he had to support me and my son as well.

 

He was also making token payments to his debts, he had loans with link financial for home improvements, within months they got a CCJ and a charging order on the house, they are also adding interest of over £115 a month onto each debt and as such the charging order is over £30000 now which is double the original debt. I don't understand how that has happened.

 

I can't see there being much equity in my ex's house, not when redemption fees are added on to the mortgage amount.

 

We have no assets, a car on HP and our furniture, I sold my horses to a relative in return for some money to buy food and pay bills. I still have contact with them, but I don't own them now.

 

I think with the charging order and mortgage arrears the house may be to far gone to be saved.

 

If the vet get a judgement against me, can a bailiff come and collect the money or do I pay it directly to the court ?

 

Thank you for all advice so far and I will look at those links.

[Uhoomagoo]

 

"On the insurance issue, take a deep breath. Noone is going to prison to fraud. We stopped sending people to prison because they get in financial difficulties in the Victorian era. This was a genuine claim, not a fraudulent claim. I am not sure what you mean when you say the insurance company are threatening to take action but fundamentally this is an issue between you and the vet ... I would be surprised if the insurer gets involved"

 

 

Sorry not to sure how to quote the post.

 

The insurance company said that because they paid me and because I didn't pay the vet the money they paid me, I have committed fraud and they are going to take me to court to get their insurance money back. The vet wrote them a horrible letter saying I have deliberately kept the money and not paid a penny, this isn't true I paid over £2500 out of the £4700, it was only when the last two payments went into my account, they were swalloed up by living expenses

Edited June 13, 2013 by citizenB

[steampowered]

The insurance company said that because they paid me and because I didn't pay the vet the money they paid me, I have committed fraud and they are going to take me to court to get their insurance money back.

Who said this and when? In a letter or over the phone?

[citizenB]

 

Sorry not to sure how to quote the post.

 

You would just click on the "reply with quote" button to the right of the post you want to quote

 

I would think that should this be taken further and I don't see that it will then you would just explain that any monies that went into the account were simply swallowed up by other debts and you had no control over this.

 

It is one of the reasons that we advise people to have a parachute account - especially if they have overdraft problems - all income is then placed in the new account and drip fed into the account which is likely to hijack any income

[Uhoomagoo]

Who said this and when? In a letter or over the phone?

 

The managing director of the insurance company told me it was fraud over the phone and this morning I received a letter stating, if I didn't immediately pay all the outstanding money they had paid to me for paying the vet, their underwriters will be pursuing me for the money paid out to be returned to them.

[steampowered]

The managing director of the insurance company told me it was fraud over the phone and this morning I received a letter stating, if I didn't immediately pay all the outstanding money they had paid to me for paying the vet, their underwriters will be pursuing me for the money paid out to be returned to them.

 

I am really struggling to see how this fits into any legal definition of fraud. For all types of fraudulent insurance claim, the insurance company would need to prove that you had a dishonest intention at the time the claim was made. Failing to use the money in the correct way after the claim has been paid is simply not relevant. This is not a mistake that anyone with legal training would make, so you should take his statements with a pinch of salt. Evidently the MD does not have legal training and no proper legal analysis has been done.

 

Also remember this is a letter from the insurance co not from the underwriters. The underwriter is an entirely separate company. The insurance company does not have authority to threaten a claim on behalf of the underwriter. Its a bit like me writing to you saying that Britney Spears wants to sue you for assault. I do not see how this claim has any merit or what the underwriter would hope to gain. I think it is extremely unlikely that the underwriter will have any interest in taking this further.

 

Frankly I think would be tempted to simply ignore this letter. Also do not speak to the insurance company over the phone. If you receive a letter from the underwriter then that is the letter you need to reply to.

 

In any event, what is being threatened here is a civil claim for recovery of the money. Even if successful the insurance company would simply become another unsecured creditor. There are no criminal penalties attached and civil fraud claims do not go through the criminal court system.

 

If the vet get a judgement against me, can a bailiff come and collect the money or do I pay it directly to the court ?

 

If the vet gets judgment against you, it would be entitled to send court bailiffs round ... there are limits on what bailiffs can do and it is unlikely you would have enough assets anyway. Before bailiffs get invovled you would ask the court to set monthly payments; in which case bailiffs could only be used if you defaulted on the monthly payments.

Edited June 13, 2013 by steampowered

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Uhoomagoo,

 

You poor thing. What an awful time you are having right now. It's hardly surprising you are feeling the way you do.

 

You don't really want to kill yourself. What you really want is for all this to go away and your life to be normal and happy again. Many of us here have felt the same way and we do get through it. You have a little boy who loves and needs his mum. I have a young daughter and she was the only thing that kept me from driving into the river after I had been threatened by debt collectors. Then, thank God, I found CAG.

 

Which debt collector is it, please?

 

Hang in there. You will get excellent advice here. You should also start a separate thread in the Repossessions forum and see what Ell-enn and Lea think about the situation there.

 

DDxx

[Ganymede]

Ok, well they are probably misleading you here. This sum would be below the small claims threshold of £10,000 so IF they were to issue a claim then it would be heard in Small claims - no high court at all and costs would be limited.

 

 

 

I assuem they mean that after the CCJ has been obtained it will be transferred up to the High Court for enforcement by a HCEO.

 

 

 

@ Uhoomagoo, as has been mentioned, you can't get blood from a stone and if you haven't got any money or assets there there is not much a creditor can do other than bankrupt you.

[tezza1234]

Ok, well they are probably misleading you here. This sum would be below the small claims threshold of £10,000 so IF they were to issue a claim then it would be heard in Small claims - no high court at all and costs would be limited.

 

The situation where you are joint homeowner with your ex - only your interest in the property would be taken into account.

 

If you don't have any interest in the home you are living in at the moment, then that cant be touched.

 

So perhaps consider what sequence has suggested.

 

I thought that if a CCJ for instance was issued on a debt of over 5k then it could also go to the high court.

[Uhoomagoo]

Thank You

 

The debt company is called Debtsolve, my doctor has written to them stressing how ill I am at the moment, my husband is trying to deal with them, but as account was in my name they are pushing to speak to me and sending intimidating emails, I have asked both vets and Debtsolve for information on how they have reached this amount, they say they sent it last year so I should have it, but I can't find it anywhere.

 

The wording on the letter is :-

 

following your conversation with us earlier today please find enclosed all the invoices we have settled to yourself and the cheques you have cashed.

 

I also enclose our previous correspondence including that sent to your vet detailing what we have paid. If the outstanding amount is not settled to your veterinary practice, underwriters will be pursuing you to recover their costs paid.

 

The thing is they say they have paid £4700 I have paid at least £2500 but the vet is claiming £7487. I suppose it will be clearer if they do take it to court, they would have to explain themselves then.

 

Thank You

[sequenci]

The managing director of the insurance company told me it was fraud over the phone and this morning I received a letter stating, if I didn't immediately pay all the outstanding money they had paid to me for paying the vet, their underwriters will be pursuing me for the money paid out to be returned to them.

 

Generally, fraud is a criminal offence - it would be down for you to be successfuly prosecuted. I doubt this will happen as I can't imagine that a prosecution would be able to put all of the elements of fraud together, for a start I can't imagine it was ever your *intention* to defaud anyone. That would need to be proven. In addtion I doubt that this will ever meet the 'public interest' test. I can't say for sure, of course, but I'm pretty certain you need not worry about the whole fraud thing. Worst case scenario - they'll bring a civil claim for the money.

[Desperate Daniella]

I haven't actually heard of this one, which is amazing, but maybe others have?

 

They sound extremely nasty, and you must not speak to them on the phone.

 

What do you mean by intimidating emails, apart from threatening to take you to Court? They should be abiding by a Code of Practice. Many DCAs tell outright lies. If they are doing this you can report them.

 

The outstanding balance after your payment was made was £2,200, but they are still claiming £7,847. So they are hoping to add over £5,000 for their fees. That is why they don't want to give you a breakdown.

[Desperate Daniella]

You can authorize your husband to speak to them on your behalf. They want to speak to you because as a woman you are more likely to be frightened easily.

 

I don't think you have to worry about the fraud issue either.

 

What did your insurance company mean by it "wasn't worth their while" to pursue the person who made your horse ill, after both the vet and the insurance company decided she was negligent? Why not?

[steampowered]

Yes, the insurance letter is fluff. The dispute does not involve them. Personally I would ignore it. I also note how there is no mention of fraud in the letter. I think this is telling - no doubt the MD is prepared to say things over the phone that he would not dare to put in writing.

 

With the debt collectors - don't speak to them on the phone if you are not up to it. If they call, say you will only deal in writing and hang up. As you say it will become clearer if they do take it to court.

[Uhoomagoo]

Thanks Everyone

 

The emails and voice mails are implying we are being watched. We have moved to be nearer my family, I am too ill to manage without help. We sold the horses to my dad as mentioned above, this was in return for financial help, we have a bill of sale, however my dad has continued to fund them as they know they help me mentally to keep going, also one of the ponies was my sons best friend, he is autistic and he would be devastated if he were to be taken away completely.

 

We got a voicemail left saying we know the horses are being moved to a new address, then we got one a day after my dad had moved them we got another message, saying we know they have gone and are being kept in a field near your rented house. Then we got an email saying the horses look happy don't they, they are making me paranoid. I have provided them with a bill of sale, but they are saying they will take my dads property now. We don't pay anything for there upkeep now.

 

The insurance company said it would cost them as much to claim against the person responsible for hurting my horse and wasn't worth their while , so I started a claim through my own legal insurance, but the vet refused to disclose my horses medical records, this was even when account was up to date, without this I had no proof, so my insurers said unless I get it I can't claim.

 

The DCA said they were issuing proceeding against me today, I noticed that someone mentioned if a small claim was above £5000 then they could go to High Court, is this correct ? If I am in a DMP and made an offer to them can a bailiff really still take our belongings ?

 

The more I think about it the more appealing bankruptcy is becoming, I will have to get advice on how my ex's home will be affected, he has had a terrible stroke and I don't want him to suffer more anxiety than necessary, especially as he has paid the mortgage for last seven years. Can CCJ's/small claims etc be included in bankruptcy ?

 

I appreciate all the advice so far, thank you.

[wiseajak]

Hi there

 

Im so sorry you are having ti go through this its horrifying. I myself suffer depression and anxiety and no full well what hell it can be.

 

Im not an expert but as far as i know they are breaking the law saying all that about the horses, they cannot take any of what your dad owns as its his and nothing to do with you. You have sold them fair and square to him and u have proof, they cannot touch them.

Keep all the emails you get as evidence ahouldnit ever go any further. The DCA cannot issue court proceedings against you if they are only trying to collect on behalf of the original client. Only the vet themselves can pursure tou through a court not some shoddy DCA. Or at least thats how i understand it.

 

Keep calm!! And i dont think the vet can refuse you access to medical records of your own pets thy would have to explain to a court why they refused.

[Desperate Daniella]

I am not surprised you are paranoid. This is threatening behaviour clearly designed to frighten and intimidate you.

 

I was so shocked by what you said that I went through to OFT and went through firstly to CAB and asked them what they thought - I said you were a friend and changed the story a bit obviously. The first thing they said was that it was threatening behaviour and they think you should report it to the police. Please keep all the voicemails and emails as evidence.

 

Then they asked if Debt Solve had a Consumer Credit Licence. I've had a look on the OFT Register and the only one I can currently find for an organization called Debt Solve expired in 2011.

 

Obviously I don't have all the details. What is their address? I've looked at the website of Debt Solve in Redditch who say they are licenced by OFT, but that isn't coming up either.

 

What details do they have on their letters?

 

Usually when we hear of DCAs on this forum many of us have already heard of them but I've been here for some time and I've never heard of this lot before.

 

If it is the ones in Redditch, he is an ex-bailiff and they suggest a "no collection, no fee" arrangement for their clients "who don't want to spend more money going to Court," so they will be really nasty, and it explains their loading the fees.

 

If they take you to Court and if they win you can ask the judge to pay by instalments and this is almost always granted. If the company is the one in Redditch they won't want this to go to Court, or if they do they may make a claim online and assume you won't defend. Or course you'll get help to defend here.

 

Anyway, let me know if it is this lot.

 

DD