Utter Despair - ESA stopped

[worried33]

Good for you. I was only thinking about our MPs this morning and remembering the days when they actually represented their constituents, rather than entering politics as a means to an end like Blair, Cameron and Clegg, etc., for whom it is all just a stepping stone to a very lucrative career.

 

I can't stand ours. She is a patronising ***. You should have seen the letter she sent me when I wrote to her about the proposed rise in fuel duty last year. It was awful, explaining how it had to be done and of course she appreciated the effects, etc., and it really was inevitable. I laughed my socks off when Osborne cancelled it. She was equally useless when I contacted her about my friend's son's ESA. I had a real go at her assistant. He told me they had written on her behalf, and I asked for the name of the person she had apparently written to and he replied, "the Correspondence Department." Do we really believe a Cabinet Minister couldn't get a name if they wanted to be bothered?

 

my previous MP was brilliant.

 

whenever she helped me I got results and fast. sadly her replacement is nowhere near as capable.

[watchdog19664]

Hi guys, just a lil update for you. I appealed the decision to revoke my ESA Benefits back in June, I duly sent in further Medical evidence along with a new sick certificate which they insisted on having despite the fact my current one still had 3 weeks to run. about 4 weeks later they sent a letter out stating the original decision to stop my Benefits was upheld as I had failed to send in any further medical evidence. They confirm that they have the sick certificate which was enclosed with the evidence but deny ever having received any evidence. Consequently I have a Tribunal to attend tomorrow, I have given up any hope of winning it as my GP in his wisdom decided to just cross through the Medical Disclosure form the DWP sent him and made no mention of my health problems whatsoever. what a totally screwed up system.

[watchdog19664]

hi all, by way of update I had a Tribunal Hearing on Tuesday after DWP "lost" y GL24 and evidence. The hearing has been adjourned for two months as my GP failed to provide even a word on the questionairre they sent him regards my condition. This whole process is just a nightmare and way too stressful

[Desperate Daniella]

Oh watchdog, I am so sorry to hear that.

 

I've just seen both your posts.

 

I can't believe your GP did not reply to the questionnaire and crossed through it.

 

If you haven't already taken this up with him you should and it should be in writing.

 

I can't believe they "lost" the evidence and form too.

 

As you say, what a totally screwed up system.

[Desperate Daniella]

The reason this system is so screwed up, like so many other systems nowadays, is that no-one is ever responsible for a particular case or job. It's all on computerised systems and you have to deal with the next available person. Years ago you had a name and a telephone number if you had a problem and if 'Susie Smith' got your case she saw it through to the end. These call centre systems mean that no-one is ever taken to task for incompetence, no-one is ever blamed, and screw the client/customer.

[watchdog19664]

Hi Daniella, that is so true. nobody owns the problem anymore and if its not their life its going to drive a bulldozer through they dont give a stuff. I wouldnt mind if I were raking in a fortune or something but as it is I dont even "live on Benefits" I barely exist on what they give me. I can no longer afford to keep my car on the road, can barely buy enough food fo the month and yet they act as if I am taking the bread from their own table. Honestly Daniella the tone that the Dr on The Tribunal was using towards me made it quite clear Im going to have a real fight to win this one. This Govt have no idea what they put people through and this ATOS/DWP system is almost as corrupt as they are.

[**Margaret**]

:watchdog19664:

 

If you feel able to clarify some of what you've written, I may have some suggestions to help you prepare for the adjourned hearing:

 

'...... I duly sent in further Medical evidence ......' What sort of evidence and who from?

 

'Medical Disclosure form'? Have you seen the form or a copy of it? ESA113 or FRR2? It's a serious problem if your doctor's refused to complete an ESA113, both for your doctor/patient relationship and his/her National Health contract.

 

No excuse for the tribunal doctor's tone, but many of them are as fed up with the flawed system (that allows cases to get to tribunal without medical evidence) as we are. Did the judge issue any directions for medical evidence?

 

Margaret.

[watchdog19664]

Hi Margaret, by way of further evidence I mean I documented far more comprehensively what was ailing me, it wasnt until I joined forums such as this that I had any clue what exactly they were after. Yes the form I refer to was ESA113 completed by my GP back in March but I only got knowledge of it very recently because of the Tribunal. My GP had put one entry for 1969 when I was 4 years old and one for January this year when i had two heart attacks, though he only mentions one! for the neck and back injuries he has been seeing me for over the past two years he did not put a single word and had ticked "nothing known" on the tick boxes where it asks of certain known restrictions such as mobility, etc. The Tribunal was adjourned as the panel had already picked up on this and I expressed my dissatisfaction with the GPs lack of input. The judge has ordered that the GP must provide a full report.

 

regards Andy

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Daniella, that is so true. nobody owns the problem anymore and if its not their life its going to drive a bulldozer through they dont give a stuff. I wouldnt mind if I were raking in a fortune or something but as it is I dont even "live on Benefits" I barely exist on what they give me. I can no longer afford to keep my car on the road, can barely buy enough food fo the month and yet they act as if I am taking the bread from their own table. Honestly Daniella the tone that the Dr on The Tribunal was using towards me made it quite clear Im going to have a real fight to win this one. This Govt have no idea what they put people through and this ATOS/DWP system is almost as corrupt as they are.

 

The doctor sounds like a total s**t. Clearly he didn't bother with the form at all, and wasn't thinking of you as a specific person who needed his help.

 

My friend who is bereaved and seriously depressed went to a Tribunal and they were incredibly unkind to her although they did back down eventually. My friend has worked all her life and was made redundant when she took time off after her father died and her mother had an accident. She's applied for so many jobs too.

 

When my friend said she had been trying to get a job this nasty woman said, "It needn't be a job like the ones you've done previously. We can choose what job you are fit for." This to someone in their 50s who has worked non-stop since she was 18.

 

I'm glad Margaret can give you more practical advice than I can.

 

DDxx

[Nystagmite]

The problem GPs have is that they don't know what needs their patients have. In my case, I tend not to see my GP over long term things because there's nothing they can do. Therefore, they have no way of knowing what needs I have.

[**Margaret**]

: Desperate Daniella:

 

Each to their own. Your reputation didn't drop out of thin air.

 

Margaret.

[Desperate Daniella]

Margaret,

 

That is so sweet. Thank you.

 

DDxx

[**Margaret**]

:Andy:

 

'They ...... deny ever having received any evidence.' Translates as, 'I didn't receive any evidence to enable me to revise the decision', from the decision maker. Doesn't mean a tribunal panel will disregard it, and if they do they'll have to explain why.

 

Non completion of an ESA113, when a doctor does have access to the required info, is unacceptable. My own doctor refuses to get involved with benefit claims at claimant request but she'll respond to official requests from Jobcentreplus as part of her contract. Good that the judge has given direction for a report from your doctor; there's potential adverse consequences from tribunal judges for non compliance. Pending a tribunal hearing for employment n support allowance isn't the best time to change your doctor, but you may wish to consider it afterwards.

 

From what you've written so far, you don't seem to have prepared a written submission of evidence for this tribunal. CAG has a guide to appeals at;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?251737-Appealing-or-going-to-a-Tribunal-Some-useful-Information

 

Have a read of the booklet at the sixth link in #1. Pages 10 - 12 and 18 - 28 detail the legal criteria for an award of employment n support allowance. Identify the descriptors you believe you satisfy, and write each one at the top of a separate sheet of A4.

 

One question I forgot to ask, have you got the ESA85 report from a face to face assessment at Atos? Assuming you have, for each descriptor, quote what Atos have said. Then write paragraphs to explain where they got it wrong and what the true effects of your heart attacks and spinal injuries are. For example, cos of breathlessness since my heart attacks I can't walk 200 metres without two rests of n minutes. Illustrate your limitations with examples from your day to day life. Can you get to a supermarket? Do you balance your laptop on your knee while you rest on the sofa cos you can't sit at a desk or table for very long?

 

Slot your paragraphs into the format of the template. If applicable, add a paragraph about why 'fit for work' may be a substantial risk to your health. A written submission of evidence isn't essential, but having thought about how your conditions affect your ability, or lack of it, to perform the prescribed activities focuses attention. And its good preparation for coping with questions from the tribunal panel on the day.

 

Finally, is there a friend/relative/unofficial carer who can write a short supportive statement about the help they give you with tasks you can't manage cos of your conditions?

 

Sincerely, Margaret.

Edited December 7, 2013 by **Margaret**

[watchdog19664]

The doctor sounds like a total s**t. Clearly he didn't bother with the form at all, and wasn't thinking of you as a specific person who needed his help.

 

My friend who is bereaved and seriously depressed went to a Tribunal and they were incredibly unkind to her although they did back down eventually. My friend has worked all her life and was made redundant when she took time off after her father died and her mother had an accident. She's applied for so many jobs too.

 

When my friend said she had been trying to get a job this nasty woman said, "It needn't be a job like the ones you've done previously. We can choose what job you are fit for." This to someone in their 50s who has worked non-stop since she was 18.

 

I'm glad Margaret can give you more practical advice than I can.

 

DDxx

 

Daniella I am so sorry to hear they treated your friend like that, unfortunately this seems to be quite a frequent occurrence as they ride rough shod over peoples feelings and lives. we seem to have a breed of very cold, callous people in power today. My commiserations to your friend.

[watchdog19664]

Margaret,thank you for theadvice, I will certainly do as you suggest, I have written a 4x A4 report for the Tribunal detailing each of my ailments and how they affect me each day.I was particularly interested in the bit you said about detailing why fit for work may seriously damage my health. Am I still allowed to include eveidence even though the tribunal has started? I am guessing I can as it has been adjourned? regards Andy

[watchdog19664]

The problem GPs have is that they don't know what needs their patients have. In my case, I tend not to see my GP over long term things because there's nothing they can do. Therefore, they have no way of knowing what needs I have.

 

fair comment Nystagmite and I am generally the same, however in his case I have discussed at length and brought it up with him on more than one occasion how my daily life is being impacted. what frustrates me terribly is each time he promises "dont worry we will get you fixed" yet we/he has still done nothing towards that goal no matter how much I badger him. I guess as Margaret has suggested on another post I really need a new GP

[Desperate Daniella]

Daniella I am so sorry to hear they treated your friend like that, unfortunately this seems to be quite a frequent occurrence as they ride rough shod over peoples feelings and lives. we seem to have a breed of very cold, callous people in power today. My commiserations to your friend.

 

Thank you. It's just not necessary to be so nasty to someone who is very down anyway. She has worked for about 40 years, never claimed any benefits before, and was treated like a lazy skiver. It's also very demeaning to be so patronised by someone about 30 years younger.

 

People who treat others like this never seem to think that anything could go wrong in their own lives.

[Nystagmite]

Margaret,thank you for theadvice, I will certainly do as you suggest, I have written a 4x A4 report for the Tribunal detailing each of my ailments and how they affect me each day.I was particularly interested in the bit you said about detailing why fit for work may seriously damage my health. Am I still allowed to include eveidence even though the tribunal has started? I am guessing I can as it has been adjourned? regards Andy

 

You can send evidence in up to 7 days before the hearing.

[watchdog19664]

Thank you. It's just not necessary to be so nasty to someone who is very down anyway. She has worked for about 40 years, never claimed any benefits before, and was treated like a lazy skiver. It's also very demeaning to be so patronised by someone about 30 years younger.

 

People who treat others like this never seem to think that anything could go wrong in their own lives.

 

y'ow that never fails to amaze me DD how these people can be so unfeeling towards fellow human beings, when all this started I had lost my homer, my gf, the job I loved and my health was in a mess yet the attitude of some of the people I have had to deal with and some of the accounts you come across are beyond belief. I started work at the age of 13 with 2 paper rounds and worked in my Dads shop for 2 evenings and a full day saturday until I left school. from there I went into full time employment and have never looked back until my recent problems so I know how your friend feels, it seems to me that anybody claiming any kind of Benefit is labelled a scrounger these days.

[**Margaret**]

:watchdog19664:

 

Sorry for the delayed response. This got overlooked while I was trying to give Work n Pensions Ministers a hard time. Yes, you can submit additional evidence during an adjournment. Officially it needs to be submitted ten to fourteen days before the re-convened hearing. (In practice, cos of the pressure they're under, most tribunal panels will accept anything they've time to read before the hearing, specially if some last minute reading may facilitate a just decision and disposal of the case.)

 

In #88 I was talking about regs 29 and 35 which provide for circumstances where a finding of fit for work/work related activity poses a substantial risk to the health of the claimant or someone else.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/794/contents/made

 

As explained on pages 10 - 12 of the ESA214 booklet at;

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/esa214-a-guide-to-employment-and-support-allowance-the-work-capability-assessment

 

If you believe that jobseekers would constitute a substantial risk to your health, you need to think about why. Possible sanctions if you can't cope with the extra stress of a jobseekers agreement may mean you can't pay for a low fat/salt/sugar diet or heating. Would having to keep appointments in cold weather increase the risk of angina/another heart attack? Would two hours a day, every day, on public transport aggravate your spinal injuries? Burden of proof (on a balance of probability) is on the appellant and almost always needs medical confirmation.

 

Best wishes, Margaret.

[watchdog19664]

Hi Margaret, I owe you an apology for such a lengthy delay n replying, my brain just forgets so regularly even from reading my email and thinking " I really must reply to that" - so please accept firstly my apology and secondly my thanks for the information which I have ( I hope) put to good use.

What has staggered me about this whole process is the way all the 'medical evidence' is so sanitised and seems to have whole bits missing/changed. For example the report from the Consultant Physio I saw makes no mention of her diagnosis of " a degenerative back condition' or her opinion that ' it will Im afraid only get worse and there isnt much we can do for you' this became - 'I gave him advice accordingly'.

As did her statement that her newly qualified colleague had progressed me too rapidly from basic to advanced exercises become 'in hindsight Mr **** may have tried to progress too rapidly'.

I feel like a very small fish in a vast pond full of very large fish to deal with

[**Margaret**]

:watchdog19664:

 

No worries. Disability often impairs ability to cope.

 

Your tribunal must be any day now. Has the additional evidence from your doctor been disclosed to you? If not, chase it from the tribunal support centre. Some medical evidence is very generalised but the remit of a tribunal panel is to find out from you, how whatever your doctor and physio have said affects you. Day in and day out. Given some of what you've written, be prepared for a question about how you got to the venue. And if possible take someone with you, for physical help should you need it, and moral support.

 

Good luck and best wishes, Margaret.

 

You may wish to edit the name out of #96.

[watchdog19664]

Hi Margaret and thanks, no I still dont have a date from them for the next hearing but I have received all of the medical evidence including the report from my GP which was far better than the crossed through blank page he originally submitted. I took my brother with me last time and he drove me there, I do have my own car but because of medication, attention problems and the fact I can no longer afford to run it the poor vehicle is just sat on my drive. I am keeping it to give to my eldest son when he is old enough to drive. another sad knock on from being on benefits really as I am now stuck out in the middle of nowhere with an ad hoc bus service that my health wont let me use anyway. I dont wish to sound miserable as I am aware there are many people far worse off than I am but to be blunt I feel utterly bloody miserable :/

[watchdog19664]

2014 Update - 6 months later and I have a 2nd hearing set for next Thursday 15th May. Feel very down and really dont expect to win given the Drs attitude at the last hearing. What happens if/when I do lose this appeal? I got news from my landlord that he is planning to sell up and move up north recently too so its not a great leap of the imagination to see me being homeless. I did some research and find that The Council have more obligation to house someone leaving Prison than they do me. what a screwed up society we live in.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi watchdog,

 

I am so sorry you are feeling so down.

 

Absolutely agree with you - we do live in a screwed up society.

 

Please don't think you will automatically lose the appeal. You did say the medical evidence was better this time.

 

Please don't start thinking about the landlord selling up right now. Many landlords sell to other landlords who will be only too grateful to take on a reliable tenant.

 

If the weather is good where you are see if you can get out if you feel physically up to it. I know when I am very down I can hardly make the effort to go out, but I always feel better if I make myself do it.

 

I'll be thinking about you on the 15th and hope it works out for you.

 

Big hug,

 

DDxxx