Marlin Court Action on HSBC CC, HSBC already said they hold no CCA - help

[TM123]

Have a look at the following, I had tried to post the link, but it does not work.

 

I would also point out that no where in the 1974 Act does it state the “Original actual signed piece of paper” must be brought to the Court.

 

It would no doubt be accepted by the Court if a member of staff working for the bank in their archiving department gave evidence that there was a credit agreement recorded on the banks archives, and that the type of credit agreement in use at that time was “X” and the computer records show that “X” % rate of interest would have applied and the credit limit was “£XXXXX”.

 

The Court is likely to accept such evidence unless there is a positive assertion coming from the debtor as to what he did or did not sign.

 

Now i would also point out that making a positive assertion that you didn’t sign an agreement when you know you did, is not only likely to get found out and make you look foolish, if you make such an assertion in a Defence and sign such with a statement of truth knowing it isn’t true, then you may well end up facing contempt of court too.

Edited June 17, 2013 by TM123

[dx100uk]

for a 2002 card they will need a true copy of the signed agreement - not a recon.

 

dx

[ZENTRIX9]

If the POC mentions a contract or agreement. You can ask to see these documents as part of the process. If they cant produce them then you cannot put together a proper defence. Is that correct? and could it get struck out because of this?

[citizenB]

Zentrix, have you acknowledged a claim recently ? If so, can you please pop onto the thread linked below and advise the OP how to acknowledge and defend all. He doesn't want to submit a defence yet.. but wants the extra 14 days.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?394406-Marlin-claim-form-old-HSBC-bank-account&p=4264319#post4264319

[goodatresearch]

Any updates on this?

[ZENTRIX9]

my wife and myself signed for a HSBC credit card in the branch 19th July 2002.

 

We have tried "its an application form" which it is

but my wife has had a ccj

and a charging order on the house.

 

Nothing with mine yet,

they keep trying it on but I have two letters stating they cant find my agreement so it hasnt gone any further.

 

I have been doing a bit of reading and think I might try the "improperly executed" angle.

 

Am I right in thinking that because the document is 2002 they would have to produce the original contract in court?

 

I also see that the document does not have all the prescribed terms within the 4 corners,

so would this be seen as improperly executed?

 

I want to see if I can get the order stayed and the charging order removed.

 

Heres a link to the credit agreement/application form.

 

 

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[ZENTRIX9]

Heres the one they sent me when I requested my CCA. They sent a blank form, didnt even bother to try and reconstitute the agreement/

 

 

[ZENTRIX9]

My wife has a credit card account with HSBC.

 

The account is pre 2007 and it states "Credit Card Request Form" on the top of the sheet.

 

The judgement was done over the phone as a conference call,

I tried to put my point over that the contract was pre 2007

and that it was un-enforcable due to there being no prescribed terms and conditions on this request form,

which the judge decided was a "legal contract".

 

It clearly states in the consumer credit act that if they are not present then the contract is no properly executed and in not enforcable.

 

I wanted it to go to court so I could get HSBC to present the original contract in court as they are complied to do if they want to enforce the debt.

 

I went down the route of unenforcabel but think I would have a better chance if I followed the not properly executed route.

 

Anyone have any helpful input as

 

we have had a letter today saying that they may take us to court to make us sell the house to make us pay the debt of £7000 if we dont sort a payment plan with them.

 

We are also paying interest on the debt.

[AndyOrch]

Threads merged

[ZENTRIX9]

Thanks Andy, can someone help me out on this one as my wife is climbing the walls.

[ZENTRIX9]

In the signature box it states that this is a credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974 only sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms.

Thats great, when they havent complied with the act by including the prescribed terms!

 

I also notice under personal data it states :-

 

I apply for a credit card to be issued to me

 

The term apply indicates to me this is not a contract.

 

Its very confusing, there are multiple occasions were application and apply are used, then also it says tis is a credit agreement.

So which is it?

 

I also cant remember ever recieving details of how to cancel

Edited January 11, 2014 by ZENTRIX9

[ZENTRIX9]

Looking at Personal Data next to where the signature box is there is a picture of a padlock and it states that :-

 

By signing this agreement you are confirming that you have read and accepted the terms set out next to this symbol overleaf on your own and on behalf of any additional card holder and that you do so with his/her authority.

 

Now I have looked at the terms & conditions that have been sent to me which are the ones that the judge looked at and said that the Application form is a valid contract because it refers to the prescribed terms overleaf. The padlock symbol is not there at all, so do I have an argument that they were not the correct terms and conditions? So the prescribed terms were not present or correct?

 

If the correct terms and conditions were not with the Application then it would not form a valid contract and would not until they did present the correct terms and conditions.

 

If it says the prescribed terms are next to the padlock symbol and its not there then it catn be the document that they presented to me upon signing the application. They have only half the document to rely upon.

Edited January 11, 2014 by ZENTRIX9

[ZENTRIX9]

If HSBC have not given me the T&C with the padlock symbol then they would not have complied with my CCA, SAR and other document requests. My case should still be in dispute and shouldnt have progressed any further.

[ZENTRIX9]

Today I have been looking through all my paperwork to recap on what documents I have.

 

Looking at the terms & conditions that they sent me that they say are the "original ones " I notice at the back there is a cancellation form.

 

Now on the document (the rear) I signed that they say is the agreement it states that I have accepted the terms of the agreement overleaf, there were only 2 pages.

 

I dont think that they had the prescribed terms as part of the document I signed.

 

I think they sent them afterwards which is why the cancellation form is at the back.

I would not have therefore read the T&C.

 

I remember the HSBC representative filling everything in and saying sign here.

 

We were told interest rates etc we had banked at the branch for some time and were friendly with the staff.

Looks like they were only looking after the banks interest, not ours.

 

It states on the "agreement" in the right to cancel box that details of how to cancel will be sent to me.

 

So if these terms & conditions were given to me on the day it does not tally with what it says on their "agreement"

If this is the case then the "agreement" does not comply with CCA and is unenforcable and improperly executed.

 

I have two other terms & conditions, the notice of variation and current terms, neither of them have a cancellation form attached.

 

I think there should be as when you are notified that there is an increase in interest you dont have to accept it and do have the right to decline it and cancel your agreement.

Edited January 12, 2014 by ZENTRIX9

[ZENTRIX9]

I will post up the documents very shortly so you can see the T&C for yourself.

 

Looking at the photocopy I can see that the Terms & Conditions are a leaflet, like the type you find on display at the bank. I remember now being told that they had run out and would send them on. So on the day we wouldnt have recieved them and they would not have been part of the agreement that was signed on the day!

Edited January 12, 2014 by ZENTRIX9

[ZENTRIX9]

Bump.

 

Anyone have any help or views?

[ZENTRIX9]

Here are the terms and conditions which they say are the original.

 

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/zentrix9/MR%20HSBC/20140114_234551_resized_zps1d6aacb9.jpg

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/zentrix9/MR%20HSBC/20140114_234659_resized_zpsd76c7802.jpg

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/zentrix9/MR%20HSBC/20140114_234716_resized_zpsc46a6880.jpg

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/zentrix9/MR%20HSBC/20140114_234733_resized_zps52a84d68.jpg

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/zentrix9/MR%20HSBC/20140114_234746_resized_zps7c33c341.jpg

 

Hope the quality is ok. You can see the leaflet outline on the first photo.

[ZENTRIX9]

Something doesnt add up.

On the terms and conditions under your right to cancel it says you have 5 days starting with the day after you receive this copy. On the agreement under the PPI section it states that I can cancel the cover in the next 30 days.

The way I see it is the terms and conditions I have been given must have been sent afterwards and was not part of the original agreement otherwise I would have a similar right of cancellation as the PPI? or am I wrong?

[dx100uk]

the bottom line here is

 

you are VERY unlikely to ever get anywhere now-a-days with a paperwork 'wriggle'.

that went out the door years ago thanks to rankines & the like.

 

you know, your wifes knows, HSBC knows & thus the judge knows

you had the money but have failed to pay it back.

 

its a shame they got the CCJ then the charging order mind.....

 

was there nothing you could do to stop it?

 

dx

[ZENTRIX9]

I will be claiming PPI and interest for the section 75 claim on the card. Approx 10k on mine and £300 on my wifes

[ZENTRIX9]

Update:

 

HSBC have been sent a breakdown of PPI owed etc just over £4000.

 

They have offered to pay me just over £6000, so I have accepted and sent the paperwork back. Waiting for the deposit into my account now

[dx100uk]

blimey.

 

dx

[ZENTRIX9]

Hi all, Marlin are chasing me for a credit card debt and are trying to get a stay lifted and summary judgment.

 

My agreement was signed 2002, I put it in dispute because they sent me a blank agreement,

 

 

They have sent me terms and conditions etc and

 

 

I also have two letters from 2 different people saying that they dont have my original agreement.

 

Now my agreement doesnt have the terms and conditions on the front or the back, they are in the form of a leaflet.

 

On closer inspection I see that on the agreement the address is HSBC PLC in Swansea,

but on the terms and conditions which is a leaflet the address is HSBC PLC in Southend on sea.

 

 

I believe these T&C are not the original terms and conditions, there is also an 08457 number to call them on

which I beleive that 0845 numbers were not used until 2006

which is 4 years after the agreement was signed,

again proof that they are not the original T&C.

 

If this is the case then surely this agreement will be unenforcable?

 

If they have to produce new terms and conditions that comply then

 

 

can I ask to see the original contract and put them to strict proof as they couldnt get it right the first time so its possible it could happen again.

[citizenB]

Why have you posted this in the Welcome Forum ? Have moved to correct place.

[ZENTRIX9]

Oops, should have gone to specsavers