Discrimination against singletons and couples without children in the UK

[Mscott]

What has always surprised me every time the budget has come in is just how much single people and childless couples in the UK are ignored, for the sake of those who have children.

 

If anyone doesn't understand where I'm coming from then they should be aware that most single people aren't entitled to working tax credit if they earn a certain amount but you can be sure they'll be paying towards someone's child tax credits, no matter what their income is.

 

This I find disgusting and I'm so sick of being a white British citizen who's worked all their life and made decisions not to settle and have children until they have enough income coming in to keep a family. This used to be the traditional expectation in this country but clearly not now. 200,000 in skilled occupations left the country last year in search of a better life.

 

I can't see this figure going down. This is only a small country and with a growing population it will further sink under the weight of those who just don't do anything but still need to be kept.

 

We don't need more children, no country does but we do need people who can work and keep the system going, but they are leaving and why should they stay?

 

The government should be encouraging those who only have themselves to rely on and not those who will always need benefits.

 

The former would be a much cheaper option for the government anyway, clearly.

Edited June 2, 2013 by citizenB
formatting

[Nystagmite]

I've noticed this. The government always say "we'll do this for couples with children". What about single people who are paying for these peoples children?

[abc123def]

People with children are given more support financially because they need more support so that the children do not live in extreme poverty. The adults don't end up with any more money than a single or childless couple does if the money is going where it should - to meet the needs of the child.

 

I'm sorry you are fed up with being a white British citizen, I am proud of the fact that in Britain we have a welfare system that up until recently has prevented children living in poverty. I do agree some welfare changes had to happen, but some of them will cause homelessness, hunger and deprivation. I'm not sure this forum is here for debate or ranting though, I suspect you will be better supported on the MSE benefits forum where you will feel quite at home.

[cfs_too]

I'm so sick of being a white British citizen who's worked all their life......

 

I've been a member of this site for a few years, and it has been a lifesaver to me regarding health issues and debt issues as a result of my disability.

 

Not once in my time have I read racist comment on here, and I felt so strongly that I needed for my own sanity to write a response to the op.

 

I find your reference above to be offensive, some might see this as an overreaction, but it is offensive to me, and I'm sure some others too.

 

Whilst my comments are not related to the content of this thread, I would point out I too am a white British citizen, I too could not afford children when I should have had them, however I am in a mixed raced relationship and I am just sick to the teeth of all of the 'British white citizen' comments that seem to be more frequently mentioned in today's society.

 

Times have changed, get off the bandwagon of 'British white citizen'.

People are born here with a different colour skin, they too are British citizens.

People move here who are not British citizens.

It does not matter the colour of their skin.

 

 

Do you really have a problem with the government giving away 'your hard earned' cash to families?

 

I think your issues are a little bit bigger than begrudging children a better quality of life.

 

Get over yourself.

Edited June 2, 2013 by cfs_too

[Nystagmite]

But children are a choice. Many couple can't afford to have children; but are forced to pay for other peoples children. A relative of mine has 4 children. She works the minimum to ensure she gets benefits. And her hypocrite of a husband moans (and she has too) about other people getting benefits.

[abc123def]

Me_Too, totally agree with you. Horrid to see such racist comments here.

 

Nystagmite, that's the point of the welfare state. Those that are well pay for the sick, those who home educate their children pay for those in school, those who are illiterate manual workers pay for the running of the libraries etc.

[citizenB]

I do not consider there to have been any racist comment made, implied or otherwise. So can we please nip that in the bud right now.

 

It is fact that our small island is becoming overpopulated one way or another. I for one am unhappy to see great swathes of land converted to more homes and supermarkets to cater for the increase.

[Nystagmite]

Me_Too, totally agree with you. Horrid to see such racist comments here.

 

Nystagmite, that's the point of the welfare state. Those that are well pay for the sick, those who home educate their children pay for those in school, those who are illiterate manual workers pay for the running of the libraries etc.

 

What, to pay people for a lifestyle choice? The fact is, the benefits system is too generous to people with children nowadays. I don't remember it ever being this generous when I was a child.

[caro]

It's not just benefits that single people of any ethnicity pays for, it's schools, children's playgrounds, paediatricians etc too.

 

Shopping is also more expensive as singletons can't benefit from offers for buying larger amounts of goods,

[Invalidation]

Oh Do stop, youll have me crying

 

Remember

 

Benefit recipients pay tax too.

[Mscott]

I've been a member of this site for a few years, and it has been a lifesaver to me regarding health issues and debt issues as a result of my disability.

 

Not once in my time have I read racist comment on here, and I felt so strongly that I needed for my own sanity to write a response to the op.

 

I find your reference above to be offensive, some might see this as an overreaction, but it is offensive to me, and I'm sure some others too.

 

Whilst my comments are not related to the content of this thread, I would point out I too am a white British citizen, I too could not afford children when I should have had them, however I am in a mixed raced relationship and I am just sick to the teeth of all of the 'British white citizen' comments that seem to be more frequently mentioned in today's society.

 

Times have changed, get off the bandwagon of 'British white citizen'.

People are born here with a different colour skin, they too are British citizens.

People move here who are not British citizens.

It does not matter the colour of their skin.

 

 

Do you really have a problem with the government giving away 'your hard earned' cash to families?

 

I think your issues are a little bit bigger than begrudging children a better quality of life.

 

Get over yourself.

 

All due respect you must not have gone for a job interview in the last twelve months because 'White British' is on the list of ethnicities you get given to complete. Along with 'White Irish' or 'White Scottish'. So it is perfectly valid. Check the facts first. Everyone has a right to post. Also yes I have got a problem with my hard earned cash being given away, that was the point of the post afterall? So you're saying we all should be like you and have children? Strangely enough some do and this just makes for an over loaded welfare system.

Edited June 3, 2013 by ims21
.

[Old Cogger]

Oh Do stop, youll have me crying

 

Remember

 

Benefit recipients pay tax too.

 

??

[Mscott]

People with children are given more support financially because they need more support so that the children do not live in extreme poverty. The adults don't end up with any more money than a single or childless couple does if the money is going where it should - to meet the needs of the child.

 

I'm sorry you are fed up with being a white British citizen, I am proud of the fact that in Britain we have a welfare system that up until recently has prevented children living in poverty. I do agree some welfare changes had to happen, but some of them will cause homelessness, hunger and deprivation. I'm not sure this forum is here for debate or ranting though, I suspect you will be better supported on the MSE benefits forum where you will feel quite at home.

 

Thanks for that, we already have a homeless population in this country and you've raised a valid point in that those with children shouldn't get to that stage. However the point I clearly made in my post is that some like me postpone having children until they're earning enough to raise them in the first place. Clearly not everyone in the UK is of the same understanding though and this is the problem.

[antone]

Thanks for that, we already have a homeless population in this country and you've raised a valid point in that those with children shouldn't get to that stage. However the point I clearly made in my post is that some like me postpone having children until they're earning enough to raise them in the first place. Clearly not everyone in the UK is of the same understanding though and this is the problem.

 

In the present economic climate, there are also a lot of people who had children while they could afford to do so but who lost their decent jobs and are now under- or unemployed. Plus, of course, people who became sick and had to give up their jobs for that reason.

[Nystagmite]

In the present economic climate, there are also a lot of people who had children while they could afford to do so but who lost their decent jobs and are now under- or unemployed. Plus, of course, people who became sick and had to give up their jobs for that reason.

 

True. But you then get people like someone I know who relies on benefits and then has children. She receives incapacity benefit and claims that she can't work. Yet, she's well enough to bring up 2 children under 2.

[jadeybags]

It's not all geared towards parents, they are cool with paying the winter fuel payments to OAP's that are loaded, but stopped child benefit for the rich.

Apparently stopping the winter fuel payments to well off pensioners won't make any difference to the economy, but stopping some disabled persons benefit will. Baffles me...

[Nystagmite]

It's probably because they know they'll lose the vote from pensioners. And they'd argue that pensioners have paid into the system, therefore, why shouldn't they get the winter fuel payment?

[Mscott]

In the present economic climate, there are also a lot of people who had children while they could afford to do so but who lost their decent jobs and are now under- or unemployed. Plus, of course, people who became sick and had to give up their jobs for that reason.

 

Yes and? That's not what I was talking about in my post. I was talking about the inequality between families and singletons. This notion of always having to feel sorry for families could very well form an excuse for everyone else to work a 60+ hour week. Especially if the population keeps growing.

[flumps1976]

Both my partner and myself work we have 2 children, we receive a very small amount of tax credits which when combined with child benefit doesn't even cover 1/4 of my childcare costs.

I'm sorry that feel aggrieved that you have to pay.

Both myself and my partner work, we pay tax and NI contributions so are also contributing towards the whole system.

I do not begrudge paying towards a welfare state that may just help someone else be they black, white, sky blue pink, a parent, a pensioner or someone who has a disability or illness to hopefully help keep them out of poverty.

[antone]

Yes and? That's not what I was talking about in my post. I was talking about the inequality between families and singletons. This notion of always having to feel sorry for families could very well form an excuse for everyone else to work a 60+ hour week. Especially if the population keeps growing.

 

Well, that was part of what you are talking about, but not the whole story. Or did you forget that you said:

 

This is only a small country and with a growing population it will further sink under the weight of those who just don't do anything but still need to be kept.

 

That was what I was responding to. Although now I re-read, it's not apparent whether the people who "just don't do anything" are the parents or the kids. But in any case, I'd be careful about being so dismissive: the parents work to raise the kids and the kids will be paying our pensions further down the line.

[Mscott]

Well, that was part of what you are talking about, but not the whole story. Or did you forget that you said:

 

 

 

That was what I was responding to. Although now I re-read, it's not apparent whether the people who "just don't do anything" are the parents or the kids. But in any case, I'd be careful about being so dismissive: the parents work to raise the kids and the kids will be paying our pensions further down the line.

 

I'm perfectly aware of what I said and I don't like your tone. If you don't like my post don't reply but do yourself a favour and have a proper look at my arguments first if you want to say anything. There are people who 'just don't do anything' in this country for sure but the one's I'm talking about are the one's who can't afford a nursery place so they can return to work after they've had their children. Dare I say it, most don't and never have had anything to go back to. So while we're all busy shelling out for these people, some attention should be granted to those who either have no interest in having children or who, like me are waiting until they're in a job that pays at least 30K, because only this amount will safely cover the expenses of raising one child by yourself. I think this is a very socially and personally responsible attitude. If anyone wants a pension then they should be good at earning and saving, rather than wait for the state to step in.

[Nystagmite]

the one's I'm talking about are the one's who can't afford a nursery place so they can return to work after they've had their children.

 

But isn't that the problem of low wages? It would make more sense imo to scrap tax credits and increase the tax allowance and only give tax credits to people on really low incomes. Isn't that what used to happen?

 

Can I just point out that many who have children were in a position to afford them; but something out of their control happened, which means they're on a much lower wage / benefits.

[Invalidation]

Both my partner and myself work we have 2 children, we receive a very small amount of tax credits which when combined with child benefit doesn't even cover 1/4 of my childcare costs.

I'm sorry that feel aggrieved that you have to pay.

Both myself and my partner work, we pay tax and NI contributions so are also contributing towards the whole system.

I do not begrudge paying towards a welfare state that may just help someone else be they black, white, sky blue pink, a parent, a pensioner or someone who has a disability or illness to hopefully help keep them out of poverty.

 

Well said sir.

I worked full time and bloody hard from 1965 untill 1993 when I was in too much pain to do so.

I was also then in the higher earners bracket and paid in a lot more tax than the normal worker but I didnt moan at all as I always thought "There but for the grace of god go I" when seeing disabled people.

And then it happened to me. I lost everything, Wife, house, business and self respect. I still despise Mondays when I know people are getting up and going to work and I think I should be doing the same.

[sandy1234]

Well said sir.

I worked full time and bloody hard from 1965 untill 1993 when I was in too much pain to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was also then in the higher earners bracket and paid in a lot more tax than the normal worker but I didnt moan at all as I always thought "There but for the grace of god go I" when seeing disabled people.

And then it happened to me. I lost everything, Wife, house, business and self respect. I still despise Mondays when I know people are getting up and going to work and I think I should be doing the same.

 

Non of this is about redundancy either but thanks for monopolising on the tone of my post and twisting it around to encourage sympathy for yourself. You're not the only one who got made redundant in the last few years. I can count at least five people who lost everything but fortunately they didn't have children as redundancy would have only brought misery to them. Same as false security seems to draw bad decision making around having children in this country.

[antone]

I'm perfectly aware of what I said and I don't like your tone. If you don't like my post don't reply but do yourself a favour and have a proper look at my arguments first if you want to say anything. There are people who 'just don't do anything' in this country for sure but the one's I'm talking about are the one's who can't afford a nursery place so they can return to work after they've had their children. Dare I say it, most don't and never have had anything to go back to. So while we're all busy shelling out for these people, some attention should be granted to those who either have no interest in having children or who, like me are waiting until they're in a job that pays at least 30K, because only this amount will safely cover the expenses of raising one child by yourself. I think this is a very socially and personally responsible attitude. If anyone wants a pension then they should be good at earning and saving, rather than wait for the state to step in.

 

I haven't liked your tone since the outset but, oh well, we all have our crosses to bear. If my tone is the worst problem you have today, you are blessed indeed.

 

But if it helps, I was trying to say that I don't entirely disagree with you, but that the issue is complex. I mean, if you're complaining about folks who have kids knowing that they can't afford it and assuming that the state will pick up the tab, I do have some sympathy. My point was simply that I don't believe that covers anything like a majority of folks who claim state assistance for their children.

 

It gets complex when we consider the issue that I (and others) mentioned - many folks had kids and then got screwed. This is, interestingly, a reversal of the normal order. It's further complicated by the fact that we, as a society, seem reluctant to force children to sleep under bridges because of the bad decisions of their parents. Yet another factor is that we assume adults have some agency and capacity to improve their own situation in life, not something we would say about children.

 

As far as pensions go, you're free to take a libertarian perspective and argue that private provision is the way to go. But as long as SRP and SPC exist, someone needs to pay them.