Jump to content

  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • OK - thank you. I understand the concept of LIP, and the need to keep my claim as simple and straightforward as possible. The legal arguments presented in what I called my skeleton statement were already in the original template I downloaded from this site. In that document I opened with "I am not proposing to set out the sequence of events." Might it be worthwhile for me to include a very brief timeline at that point, which would perhaps then allow it to become my witness statement? Or do you consider two separate documents are required? 
    • BF do you know where the instruction for skeleton has come from? Its just WX + docs. Do you think a skeleton is needed if the only issue in dispute is the legality of the exclusion terms. it seems excessive as well as wx no?   ah yes good point with LIP wx format i didnt think about the LIP judge softhand 
    • And incidentally, the really important part of this is that when you go to court, you are totally thorough and fluent not only with the facts – but with the effect of the legal points you are arguing. The facts are broadly not in dispute but the legal effect for instance of either having insurance or not having insurance. Of requiring insurance – these are the things you need to understand fully. Preparing your court bundle and eventually refining it bit by bit is terrific revision for you and will put you in control but also understanding its content fully and being fluent with its pages in the position of every point you are making is also essential.
    • Skeleton argument/witness statement – it's just a matter of terminology and we don't need to make an issue of it. Actually the three-page document that you have posted first of all and which you have called skeleton argument – is a witness statement which would be attached to the bundle which would be part of your indexed court bundle. I haven't looked at it in detail get or how it supports your claim or how it addresses any of the points made in the defence. I'll have to do that in the next two or three days. But for the moment, it looks fine. You have posted a second document which you are describing as an anonymized witness statement and as far as I can see, I agree with Cagger @jk2054 that much of your circle witness statement is a bit of a waffle and contains irrelevant information that you haven't remedied it in your final version which you say is chopped up. Also, you have received a suggestion of a template from Cagger @jk2054 and although this is going to be confusing for you, I don't think you should bother to use it. It is far too formal. You are a litigant in person and you need the flexibility of fully informing but informal documents which is what we are providing you with. We are suggesting models which we have been using over many cases and they all succeed in some them have been, complemented by the judge for the effectiveness and their clarity. You are litigant in person and one of the things you need to do is you need to have the judge on your side and helping you if necessary and this means that you don't want to start acting or talking or writing as if you are some kind of lawyer – you aren't. Being a litigant personage a certain sort of leverage and you should exploit that. The templates that we are suggesting to you are still not the templates that a completely un-advised person would use but they are still thorough. Stick to them. I suggest that you follow the advice given by the site team here and avoid confusion by switching horses. So for the moment I would suggest that you stick to your original skeleton argument – which follows the format that we have been using on this forum. We do like to see the fully prepared bundle please. I think there should be a next step. Have you got hearing date? Have you got a date for filing your bundle? In fact I have just looked back and I see that your filing date is 8 July. That's fine
    • First of all – as has already been pointed out to you, this is not a defect in the usual way that we understand and so that means that you don't need to rely on your 30 day and six months rights to reject. You can get MOT test done and it turns out to be an MOT failure for any reason then you have the added weight that they have is sold you an unroadworthy vehicle. Who did the existing MOT? I have a sense that it was big motoring world themselves in which case this would give you even greater leverage that if you have an MOT fail and it seems fairly clear that the reason for the failure is something which existed for some time that that would also cast doubt over the MOT provided by big motoring world and this would be even more serious. In any event, the vehicle is not as described and I think that this is an immediate ground for cancelling the policy and even better than that I think it would be a good ground for resisting any deduction made for mileage used – although we will have to deal with as it comes. I have read on Facebook that big motoring world tend to insist on quite a big deduction per mile and I have a sense that they do this because they know they can get away with it because they know their customers are really just happy to get rid of the vehicle any cost. You have told us you've got to a position where they seem to have agreed that you have now drawn a blank and they are being obstructive. Maybe you can lay out a bullet point chronology of exactly what has happened so far – point by point. I don't think you've told us how much you pay for the vehicle and also we want to know a list of the other expenses to which you been put including insurance et cetera and if you cancel the insurance how much you are likely to lose. How long is it not been driven? Why is it not been driven by your son? Didn't you planned for the more expensive insurance premium before you bought it? I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe you bought it and then was surprised at how expensive it was and are now finding a reason to return it. Please be completely level with us and tell us if this forms part of your reason for wanting to return it. We need to know everything – straight dealing – so we can help you in the best way possible. Otherwise we will have surprises sprung on us and we will all be embarrassed and you may lose. In fact I see that we don't know anything about the current all – make, model, mileage, or price paid which have already asked you about. Any reason that we don't have these very basic and obvious details without having to ask for them? You refer to the two new runflat tyres – why? Are these new ones which came with the car or these new ones which you had to buy and if so why did you have to buy them and how much they cost. It will be nice not to have to cross-examine your every detail. It will save a lot of time. Please have a look at this post carefully, discern the questions and address each one please.
  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.


      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like

Tenant tries to sue for not protecting deposit after moving out despite a full refund

style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 4062 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then


Please click the "Report " link


at the bottom of one of the posts.


If you want to post a new story then


Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 



Recommended Posts

I am a landlord and was hoping that the forum members could help me with a problem.


The situation

  • I had a tenant rent a room in a shared house from me. The tenancy started in June 2012.
  • The tenant has been difficult throughout the tenancy. Initially she stated that she moved out of a flat and needs to sort through her possessions. The room was filled up to 2m high with boxes and she even changed the bed to a folding bed, as there was no space left for a permanent bed. She also stored boxes in the communal areas.
  • Although I received at least 1-2 email per week about all aspects of the flat that apparently need repair I always responded promptly and resolved/paid for repairs & new items for the flat.
  • Around Christmas 2012 I asked the tenant to remove her items from the communal areas as it was affecting the other tenants. There are 4 tenants in the flat in total.
  • Although the situation temporarily improved, the communal areas were used again for storage shortly after.
  • I sent the tenant another email asking her to please keep the communal areas clear and bring her room back to a reasonable standard. This was a polite request and I did not ask her to move out.
  • The tenant decided that the 'situation is not workable' and decided to move out on the following weekend, which seemed like a overreaction neither me nor the other housemates could understand. I was glad to see her leave and wanted resolve the situation as soon as possible so, I agreed that she would only have to pay rent up the day she moves out, and I did not insist on the notice period.
  • The tenant was not able to organise her move in time and moved out one day late. We agreed she would pay rent for one additional day only.
  • Shortly after she had left I refunded her deposit in full and she confirmed receipt.
  • I do admit that I failed to protect the deposit. This was a genuine mistake, which I regret. I have other tenants and can prove that their deposits are protected.
  • The tenant is now suing me for three times the monthly rent for not protecting her deposit.


Additional factors

  • The tenant has been very difficult throughout the tenancy and managed to fall out with the other housemates before moving out. One of the housemate's friends who works in mental health suggested that she suffers from psychological problems and she has clearly a tendency to hoard things. The housemates even told me that she brought items into the flat she found on the street. I am mentioning this as I believe there is no realistic chance to settle this out of court.
  • I believe I have always acted very reasonably and made multiple exceptions to meet the tenant’s requests.
  • The tenant has suffered no loss.
  • I found that the tenant has posted an advert on Gumtree.com stating my full name, calling me '**** bag' and that I allegedly have cheated her out of hundreds of pounds and kept her deposit, which is not true.


My Questions:

  • Can the tenant sue me for not protecting the deposit, given I have acted reasonably and refunded her deposit in full?
  • Are there any recent cases where the landlord has been sued for not protecting the deposit despite retuning it in full?
  • I understand that even if the court orders me to pay compensation, I can avoid having a CCJ against my name if I pay within 28 days. Is that correct? Avoiding any CCJ against my name is the most important thing in this case for me.
  • Would counter-suing for slander be advisable? I have contacted Gumtree.com and they said they would provide the details of the person who posted the advert to a lawyer or the police.


Thanks in advance for your responses!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a landlord and was hoping that the forum members could help me with a problem.





My Questions:

  • Can the tenant sue me for not protecting the deposit, given I have acted reasonably and refunded her deposit in full?
  • Are there any recent cases where the landlord has been sued for not protecting the deposit despite retuning it in full?
  • I understand that even if the court orders me to pay compensation, I can avoid having a CCJ against my name if I pay within 28 days. Is that correct? Avoiding any CCJ against my name is the most important thing in this case for me.
  • Would counter-suing for slander be advisable? I have contacted Gumtree.com and they said they would provide the details of the person who posted the advert to a lawyer or the police.

Thanks in advance for your responses!


1.Yes T can sue for non-protection up to 6 years after T ended. It should be via full County Court hearing and could cost her £1K+ in up front Court fees. The loser will be liable to pay winner's full legal costs.

2.Under recent Localism Act the penalty is between 1 - 3x deposit AT THE JUDGE'S DISCRETION.

3. I wouldn't countersue for Slander/Libel at this stage, but get a hard copy of the offending Gumtree article. Get solicitor to obtain poster's details for pot legal action and include all in Court bundle if non-protection hearing goes ahead to demonstrate Ts character.


This OP sounds familiar, have you posted it elsewhere recently?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you received a claim form? If so then you clearly already have the makings of a good defence, although you should stick to facts that can be proven rather than hearsay about psychological issues.


Other posters can hopefully confirm or deny this, but I understood that if the deposit was returned in full and in within a reasonable time, there is no basis for any claim. Only if damages are being claimed could there be a case, in which case they would have to be quantify and provide evidence of their loss.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a conversation with shelter a few days ago regarding this. I was informed that a tenant can still file a claim for non-compliance up to 6 years after the tenancy has ended.

I was also advised that even if a deposit was returned in full and in a timely manner, the claim would still be valid - the landlord will still be liable to pay 1-3x the deposit amount.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?

  • Create New...